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Offline kiwiboy

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Statutes of the Apostles of Jesus and Mary
« on: November 25, 2017, 11:24:53 AM »
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  • The Apostles of Jesus and Mary have published their statutes at the following link.


    https://sajm-siteofficiel.blogspot.ie/2017/11/statuts-de-la-sajm.html

    SCROLL DOWN FOR THE ENGLISH TRANSLATION!


    Those (priests included) who dream about a return to the good old days of the SSPX with have a field day with this one.

    They will get their way eventually because no one wants to form priests individually...
    Eclipses neither prove nor disprove the flat earth.

    "As for whether or not I work for NASA, I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what that could possibly have to do with anything" Neil Obstat, 08-03-2017

    Offline paxtecum111

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    Re: Statutes of the Apostles of Jesus and Mary
    « Reply #1 on: November 25, 2017, 02:50:15 PM »
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  • I scrolled down, but cannot find the english translation. Help.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Statutes of the Apostles of Jesus and Mary
    « Reply #2 on: November 25, 2017, 02:55:14 PM »
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  • They will get their way eventually because no one wants to form priests individually...

    "No one wants to form priests individually, and that is how it should be."   - the Catholic Church.

    Seriously, the Catholic Church has formally ruled on this matter, invoking the infallible protection of the Holy Ghost. In the Council of Trent (adjective: Tridentine), which is an ecumenical council that Traditional Catholics venerate, mandated that from now on, priests are to be formed in special houses of formation called seminaries -- EXCLUSIVELY.

    This was in response to all the ignorance, abuses, etc. in the 15th century, when the "apprenticeship" method was tried. Priests were poorly and inadequately trained, ended up teaching material or formal heresy with regards to many theological points, and were also scandalous in their morality. They were extremely ignorant about the Faith, much less theology or philosophy. Several had part-time or full-time jobs, and many of these were also living in sin with women. It was a mess.

    The Holy Ghost, in the Council of Trent, remedied that situation with the new requirement of "seminaries" to form priests in the future.

    Any so-called "Traditional Catholic" who tries to dispense with seminaries, even in an emergency situation, should at least stop and think about it for a couple hours. The Church made this move for a reason!

    Priests are important, and we need them, yes. But a bad priest or poorly formed priest, or a priest who still has attachments to mortal sin, is worse than no priest at all!  In other words, there are worse things than not having a priest. Again, this is the mind of the Church, not the personal opinion of Matthew (which is worthless).

    Fr. Cekada did have a good point about this (usually I disagree with him): that a TRIDENTINE PRIEST should be formed at a TRIDENTINE SEMINARY. If we adhere to the Council of Trent when it comes to our Mass, why not adhere to the same Council when it comes to how our priest(s) must be formed?
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Statutes of the Apostles of Jesus and Mary
    « Reply #3 on: November 25, 2017, 02:55:51 PM »
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  • I scrolled down, but cannot find the english translation. Help.
    Keep looking. It's there. It's in the middle. French on top, English in middle, and Spanish on bottom.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Statutes of the Apostles of Jesus and Mary
    « Reply #4 on: November 25, 2017, 03:17:03 PM »
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  • Any well-informed Trad could tell you all the evils that come about when A) laymen and B) bishops get too DESPERATE for a priest.

    You get situations like the Boston, KY "seminary", the con-artist career of Ambrose Moran, the "careers" of many con-artists who have simulated being a priest over the years, the poor ordination choices (including married men) of Bp. Slupski, etc.

    It usually happens when emotion is king. The ordaining bishop, the prospective ordinand, and his congregation EACH do their part to either keep their sanity and trust in God, or get into an emotional tizzy culminating in desperation, and end up doing something stupid.

    It's a close parallel with a young man (or woman) getting desperate for a spouse and diving into the non-Catholic pool. What does a wise person tell them? "There are worse things than being single."

    Likewise, there are worse fates than lacking a priest. How about a priest who leads you and your family to leave the Faith, or otherwise scandalize you, and you (and/or many of your children) end up in hell as a result?

    The mind of the Church is quite clear. She says to Her bishops: "Lay not hands lightly on any man."
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    Offline PG

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    Re: Statutes of the Apostles of Jesus and Mary
    « Reply #5 on: November 25, 2017, 04:12:55 PM »
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  • While I think the seminary system is useful, I do think its usefulness is negated when it becomes too large or crowded.  And, I will agree with you matthew about your comments of no seminary(aka a seminary that is too small).  I think the seminary should not allow for culture shock when sent out from the seminary.  If you are going to be a missionary in the bush, then you should not be preparing for such a life in the enormous halls of a high church 80 million $ seminary.  

    But, you could argue that we should not be a missionary in the bush anyway.  We ought to be smarter than place ourselves in such a situation.  But, we all know that the men in cloth in their ivory towers are not at all capable of missionary activity anyway.  So, lets avoid all of those defects from the start, and actually accomplish something.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Statutes of the Apostles of Jesus and Mary
    « Reply #6 on: November 25, 2017, 04:20:51 PM »
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  • Recreating the SSPX sans the copyrighted name. It will be essentially the same .

    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Statutes of the Apostles of Jesus and Mary
    « Reply #7 on: November 25, 2017, 05:37:22 PM »
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  • "No one wants to form priests individually, and that is how it should be."   - the Catholic Church.

    Seriously, the Catholic Church has formally ruled on this matter, invoking the infallible protection of the Holy Ghost. In the Council of Trent (adjective: Tridentine), which is an ecumenical council that Traditional Catholics venerate, mandated that from now on, priests are to be formed in special houses of formation called seminaries -- EXCLUSIVELY.

    This was in response to all the ignorance, abuses, etc. in the 15th century, when the "apprenticeship" method was tried. Priests were poorly and inadequately trained, ended up teaching material or formal heresy with regards to many theological points, and were also scandalous in their morality. They were extremely ignorant about the Faith, much less theology or philosophy. Several had part-time or full-time jobs, and many of these were also living in sin with women. It was a mess.

    The Holy Ghost, in the Council of Trent, remedied that situation with the new requirement of "seminaries" to form priests in the future.

    Any so-called "Traditional Catholic" who tries to dispense with seminaries, even in an emergency situation, should at least stop and think about it for a couple hours. The Church made this move for a reason!

    Priests are important, and we need them, yes. But a bad priest or poorly formed priest, or a priest who still has attachments to mortal sin, is worse than no priest at all!  In other words, there are worse things than not having a priest. Again, this is the mind of the Church, not the personal opinion of Matthew (which is worthless).

    Fr. Cekada did have a good point about this (usually I disagree with him): that a TRIDENTINE PRIEST should be formed at a TRIDENTINE SEMINARY. If we adhere to the Council of Trent when it comes to our Mass, why not adhere to the same Council when it comes to how our priest(s) must be formed?


    No doubt these loquacious posts combined with the fact you are admin of the forum are going to fool some, but they won't fool everyone.

    Put simply, I don't agree. Try not to ban me for that.

    The measure you were talking about is a purely disciplinary question related to the times. Clearly, it is better that young men be formed in a seminary. But we don't have that luxury anymore.

    The hierarchy to which we normally would give our assent has fallen into heresy. Each man is to his own effectively. We CANNOT recreate that hierarchy. This is an illusion.

    Therefore seminarians can be formed individually. There is nothing wrong with forming a seminary which bishop Faure is doing. But putting it under one organisation like that can bring REAL problems.

    If you don't want to see that, you are only fooling yourself.

    It seems that people don't want to learn the lessons of the last 40 years. Bishop Williamson spoke of
     "loose pockets of independent resistants".

    Curious how those who profess themselves so loyal to him seem to not take his advice when it doesnt suit.

    But that's globe think for ya....
    Eclipses neither prove nor disprove the flat earth.

    "As for whether or not I work for NASA, I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what that could possibly have to do with anything" Neil Obstat, 08-03-2017


    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Statutes of the Apostles of Jesus and Mary
    « Reply #8 on: November 25, 2017, 05:39:28 PM »
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  • Any well-informed Trad could tell you all the evils that come about when A) laymen and B) bishops get too DESPERATE for a priest.

    You get situations like the Boston, KY "seminary", the con-artist career of Ambrose Moran, the "careers" of many con-artists who have simulated being a priest over the years, the poor ordination choices (including married men) of Bp. Slupski, etc.

    It usually happens when emotion is king. The ordaining bishop, the prospective ordinand, and his congregation EACH do their part to either keep their sanity and trust in God, or get into an emotional tizzy culminating in desperation, and end up doing something stupid.

    It's a close parallel with a young man (or woman) getting desperate for a spouse and diving into the non-Catholic pool. What does a wise person tell them? "There are worse things than being single."

    Likewise, there are worse fates than lacking a priest. How about a priest who leads you and your family to leave the Faith, or otherwise scandalize you, and you (and/or many of your children) end up in hell as a result?

    The mind of the Church is quite clear. She says to Her bishops: "Lay not hands lightly on any man."


    This is not about Fr. Pfeiffer. Why does it always have to come back to that?

    Let's put him behind us.
    Eclipses neither prove nor disprove the flat earth.

    "As for whether or not I work for NASA, I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what that could possibly have to do with anything" Neil Obstat, 08-03-2017

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Statutes of the Apostles of Jesus and Mary
    « Reply #9 on: November 25, 2017, 09:52:48 PM »
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  • Therefore seminarians can be formed individually. ...

    But that's globe think for ya....
    No, that's flat earth think.
    A seminarian is a student in a seminary. If he is formed individually he's not a seminarian.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Statutes of the Apostles of Jesus and Mary
    « Reply #10 on: November 25, 2017, 10:38:36 PM »
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  • During this time of crisis within Catholic tradition,
    why couldn't the Resistance Bishops expedite the priestly formation process from (6) to (4) years ?

    Your candidates likely have some seminary or higher education under their belts already.

    Bottom-line, the resistance Chapels need priestly successors and new priestly assignments.


    NEW CATHOLIC CHAPLAINS POSE FOR PHOTO IN 1918
             A group of newly minted Catholic chapl
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Statutes of the Apostles of Jesus and Mary
    « Reply #11 on: November 26, 2017, 12:09:35 AM »
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  • Quote
    It seems that people don't want to learn the lessons of the last 40 years. Bishop Williamson spoke of
     "loose pockets of independent resistants".

    Curious how those who profess themselves so loyal to him seem to not take his advice when it doesnt suit.

    But that's globe think for ya....

    Ah, I think you've struck on it.

    Quote
    Recreating the SSPX sans the copyrighted name. It will be essentially the same .
    Isn't that what Bp. Williamson has been trying to get across to folks for about five years?

    Quote
    This is not about Fr. Pfeiffer. Why does it always have to come back to that?

    Let's put him behind us.

    Marvelous suggestion.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Statutes of the Apostles of Jesus and Mary
    « Reply #12 on: November 26, 2017, 07:40:00 AM »
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  • As for forming priests individually, forget about it.

    That is not the mind of the Church since Trent, and even Bishop Williamson doesn't do that.

    As for those saying these Statutes will just cause another repeat of the failed SSPX, they obviously have not perceived the differences/modifications Bishop Faure made to them, which make a repeat impossible.

    Sorry, but the world is not ending (or flat); seminaries are still required; congregations are still the only Catholic option.

    If you don't think so, you have already surrendered/lost.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Statutes of the Apostles of Jesus and Mary
    « Reply #13 on: November 26, 2017, 08:53:08 AM »
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  • No, that's flat earth think.
    A seminarian is a student in a seminary. If he is formed individually he's not a seminarian.

    Nothing to do with flat earth.

    That is called poisoning the well.

    Ridiculous and useless dispute over words. The thing is more important.
    Eclipses neither prove nor disprove the flat earth.

    "As for whether or not I work for NASA, I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what that could possibly have to do with anything" Neil Obstat, 08-03-2017

    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Statutes of the Apostles of Jesus and Mary
    « Reply #14 on: November 26, 2017, 08:57:23 AM »
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  • As for forming priests individually, forget about it.

    That is not the mind of the Church since Trent, and even Bishop Williamson doesn't do that.

    As for those saying these Statutes will just cause another repeat of the failed SSPX, they obviously have not perceived the differences/modifications Bishop Faure made to them, which make a repeat impossible.

    Sorry, but the world is not ending (or flat); seminaries are still required; congregations are still the only Catholic option.

    If you don't think so, you have already surrendered/lost.

    You might forget about it, but I and others won't.

    I'm not posting to impress you anyway. or the admin. I am posting for those lurkers of good will and for posterity.

    I am posting because it is the truth and everyone knows it. Let it be known that this will be our mistake as the years go on. If there is another apostasy with the the resistance it will because of this. Because of our hard hearts. I for one will do my utmost to not go along with it and to warn others.

    I, for one agree with Bishop Williamsons independent pockets prediction, although I don't agree with everything he says. It is absurd to claim that seminaries are the only "catholic" option.

    People want them because they want to sit back and have everything done for them. Priest on a plate.


    Oh and I have read the modifications. They are not worth the paper they are written on. They can, like everything be overridden if their is enough will to apostatize. Such as in the SSPX. Anyone who still goes to the SSPX at this current time will never understand this.
    Eclipses neither prove nor disprove the flat earth.

    "As for whether or not I work for NASA, I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what that could possibly have to do with anything" Neil Obstat, 08-03-2017

     

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