I pray that in this year the situation will be such that there will be no need for a resistance as such.
:pray: :pray: :pray:
Yeah, that modernism will evaporate, Vatican II will be forgotten and it rains beer from Heaven (https://www.cathinfo.com/Smileys/classic/cheers.gif)
I still think 2019 will be quiet, but Frank is pretty random.If +Francis resigns and a "moderate" pope is elected, then I could see the sspx make a deal. This could easily happen in 2019.
I predicted from the get-go that a bunch of people resisting something that did not actually happen would very soon start resisting (finding fault) in each other. Which is exactly what happened.Of course, that will happen in any group that forms quickly, out of necessity, and without a true leader, which is what happened with the resistance. But, by and large, it's operating well and other than Fr Pfeiffer what other problems are there? It's growing, it's becoming more organized and it's keeping the Faith alive - all that you can ask.
If you think the Mass is important, let me tell you: the Faith is even more important. The Mass exists for the Faith, and not vice-versa. Faith comes first. Without Faith, we can't enter into the kingdom of heaven.Agree totally. Somehow most of the millenial generation didn't get this message from their baby boomer parents, which is why the millenials have mostly joined the indult to be "under rome". They don't understand the Faith; they just want the mass...which will not help them, spiritually, in the long run.
And a few words for the foolish: Vatican II was not about the Mass. It was never about the Mass. It was about the FAITH.
There is a definite credibility problem in the eyes of your children if you go along to the SSPX, then resist, then go Sede, the bounce back to the indult and with each step you demonize the last group you left. As much as you dislike Fr. Pfeiffer today, 4-5 years ago you were singing his praises. He was the same man back then with the same inherent faults, they didn't come out of a vacuum. You can delete those old threads from the forum and try to sanitize history, but one cannot fool one's own children and delete their memories. They remember that you were just as committed to Pfeifferville in 2019 as you were to Econe in 2007 or Michael Voris in 2012.
I think this is a MAJOR factor in people not joining one of the various resistances. At least the people I have spoken to who either thought about joining and didn't, or, who joined and then left.
I go to Mass wherever works for me at the time, if the priest changes for a legalistic nutter or lacks charity, or a liberal from The Faith Movement, then I leave and go somewhere else. Ultimately the message I want to send to my children is THIS IS SUSTAINABLE. I don't fully commit to anywhere, so I am fairly immune from changes which tend to happen and are outside of my control.
There is a definite credibility problem in the eyes of your children if you go along to the SSPX, then resist, then go Sede, the bounce back to the indult and with each step you demonize the last group you left.
[quoting ggreg] 6. "They remember that you were just as committed to Pfeifferville in 2019"
I go to Mass wherever works for me at the time, if the priest changes for a legalistic nutter or lacks charity, or a liberal from The Faith Movement, then I leave and go somewhere else. Ultimately the message I want to send to my children is THIS IS SUSTAINABLE. I don't fully commit to anywhere, so I am fairly immune from changes which tend to happen and are outside of my control.
There is a definite credibility problem in the eyes of your children if you go along to the SSPX, then resist, then go Sede, the bounce back to the indult and with each step you demonize the last group you left.I'd say Ggreg is contradicting himself, or being outright hypocritical here. "When I leave, it's different because they are a "nutter", they lack charity, or they are a liberal. But when other people leave, they maliciously slander the perfectly innocent group they left."
I see the Trad struggle as a struggle of Catholics against the World.So do I. Who is winning?
The million dollar question is: Does the priest/group do its best to fight the world and be a good pastor? Or, in other words, is there a fundamental reason why the group is failing to guide its flock through the storm?I'd argue that, long term, the fruits show that. A good tree does not produce bad fruits.
A parent can do everything right and still lose child(ren) to the world because of Free Will.They can, but we are talking about a population here, not specific examples. I am sure there are great resistance families who do everything right. There are also Medjugorje nuts who have 10 kids and it all pans out for them. Exceptions don't impact the rule.
I had to read that one by ggreg a few times. I think what ggreg meant is people's memories, today, in 2019, remember you were committed to Pfeiffer in 2012ish, but he worded the sentence wrong which makes it seem like you supported Pfeiffer as recently as this new year.Please try to learn that in British English YOU can mean ONE (third person) as well as You (directed at Matthew).
I'm not saying I agree with ggreg's post at all. I'm just pointing out that particular part by ggreg that's confusing.
Please try to learn that in British English YOU can mean ONE (third person) as well as You (directed at Matthew).
I don't know the date he changed his mind about Fr. Pfeiffer. The point stands that resistance priests and resistance people are in a continuous state of flux.
I haven't left anywhere. I go to the SSPX, and various mainstream churches with outcast priests who say the TLM with a strong preference and the NO under threat or not at all.
I'd say Ggreg is contradicting himself, or being outright hypocritical here. "When I leave, it's different because they are a "nutter", they lack charity, or they are a liberal. But when other people leave, they maliciously slander the perfectly innocent group they left."
Yes. I know the grammar rules. That's both in British and American English. However, since you were addressing Matthew, you should have made it clear that "you" meant the third person, and not him specifically, in order to avoid confusion there.Or maybe you should have assumed I didn't mean him, since it is only just 2019.
I haven't left anywhere. I go to the SSPX, and various mainstream churches with outcast priests who say the TLM with a strong preference and the NO under threat or not at all.Again, it's about fundamentals vs. accidentals, Greg.
Then once a month in my town we have a special mass which a visiting outcast comes to say.
The only change I have made is to not be fully committed to the SSPX and just go there about 40% of the time.
A nutter is a person who lets their strong emotions about the faith drive those under their care away from it. They are so focused on the here and now that they disregard the scandal they cause to others and they make themselves such a poor example of what a Catholic should be that nobody wants to be associated with them.
Or maybe you should have assumed I didn't mean him, since it is only just 2019.
A nutter is a person who lets their strong emotions about the faith drive those under their care away from it. They are so focused on the here and now that they disregard the scandal they cause to others and they make themselves such a poor example of what a Catholic should be that nobody wants to be associated with them.That's your definition today. In the past you have called anti-Vaxxers, those who don't believe we've been to the Moon, and other "conspiracy theorists" (the term "conspiracy theorists" is a globalist bludgeon, like "anti-Semitic", which term you happily use un-ironically) as "nutters".
But I'll tell you the ultimate bad fruit: when the tree starts to destroy itself!Overall is the SSPX growing or shrinking? I believe it is growing, albeit slowly.
If one were to assume that the anti-Resistance position and rhetoric were the true position, then why does the SSPX have so many people leaving for the Indult/FSSP nowadays? It's like they got the message that the fight against Vatican II is over, it's time to lay down our arms, and "we must have real contact with the Conciliar Church; our status with them is important, and we don't want to be sedevacantist after all" so many SSPX parishioners are taking the hint and leaving for the Indult.
From reports I heard, the Ridgefield, CT chapel lost X number of people in the last few years. This was a true hemorrhage, too, not your typical attrition. 1/3 went to the Sedes, 1/3 went to the Indult, and 1/3 went to the Resistance.
When any group large or small stops believing in itself, in such a fundamental manner, isn't that a death-knell? The SSPX has stopped believing in the Trad movement, just like modern Americans and Brits no longer believe in their culture, to the point they are (as a whole) contracepting themselves out of existence.
A nutter is a person who lets their strong emotions about the faith drive those under their care away from it.Strong emotions about the faith are not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes strong feelings help people to persevere and be committed to serving God. Sometimes our strong feelings help to inspire others.
It really depends on the spirit you base it on. If you are struggling merely because you're a stubborn, combative or irresponsible person and you can't stand people who disagree with you because you hate to lose face or money or some other worldly thing, yeah well that's not good.I agree with one proviso. Being right still needs to look at the long term results. Because it is very difficult to know beforehand that you are objectively right. As you rightly say it is confusing. There are those who think Fr. Pfeiffer is a much maligned holy saint of a man and is being attacked by the devil. How does one objectively know?
If you are struggling because you are genuinely trying to do right by the Faith, by God, by His Church and along the way you offend your friends, your family, your coworkers, or even your co-religious as it may be, and provided you are objectively right, you are doing exactly what you should be doing as a Catholic.
And why do you want to post here if you think that the people here are nutters, anyhow?Good question.
Overall is the SSPX growing or shrinking? I believe it is growing, albeit slowly.It's growing because of the # of children born to parents and also due to the admittance of novus ordoites. The problem is that the sspx has taken the view of "quantity over quality" for the last 2 decades. They admit anyone who "wants the latin mass" and do not have strict standards for newbies, who never learn the total depth of V2's problems. Thus, the sspx now is full of "conservative (former) novus ordoites" and many lukewarm sspx'ers. All the staunch anti-V2'ers have left (and most of the anti-V2 priests have been kicked out).
Is the SSPX fragmenting? Is there a uber liberal faction of the SSPX that wants to split away from the conservative faction? The SSPX has always had small breakaway groups. I've nothing against the resistance breaking away, if they are worried about a potential deal with Rome, but they should acknowledge that no deal was done by Fellay. Until a deal actually happens and the terms and conditions are understood and the SSPX has clearly made an unacceptable compromise, then I am left wondering what exactly is being resisted?The sspx is analogously in the period between 1962 and 1969, when thinking of the interim period between the Traditional Mass and the introduction of the novus ordo. So many changes/experimentations happened during these 7 years that the Faith of the people was changed even before the new mass was unveiled.
The calls and the doom from 2013/14/15 have not panned out.They absolutely have. The sspx leaders (and their modernist friends) just changed tactics (but not their course) and have decided to be patient. The frog will still be boiled, but just not as quickly.
My experience of Resistance members' families in the UK is that they are smaller than the average SSPX member taken as a mean, modal or median average. I know of a couple of big families but I know of lots of small families and unmarried people and people who were shacked up and fornicating in their 20s and 30s and came back to the SSPX when their Halcyon days were over and now I believe are over-compensating. You see this frequently with reverts and converts like they are trying to make up for lost time.The resistance is mainly measured by its priests and bishops, and their principles. The Traditional laity (of any group) can hardly encompass an accurate measure of the group's worth. (This is even true of Catholicism pre-V2. The "fewness of the saved" means that the majority of Catholics are horrible examples of Christ's Truth.)
I agree with one proviso. Being right still needs to look at the long term results. Because it is very difficult to know beforehand that you are objectively right. As you rightly say it is confusing. There are those who think Fr. Pfeiffer is a much maligned holy saint of a man and is being attacked by the devil. How does one objectively know?
I remember SSPX priests saying JP2 was good and was a prisoner in the Vatican. That use to be the narrative in the early 1980s. I didn't believe it then as it made no sense to me. He didn't behave like a prisoner at all. Even at that age I sensed that people were telling themselves the narrative they wanted to hear. Very few people are able to avoid drinking their own kool-aid.
Someone who drags their wife and children halfway around the world to live "the Catholic life" in Fatima and ends up with 8 out of 9 children losing their faith has not done exactly what they should be doing. Results matter.
My method was to observe the successful families in the parish where the mother and father were clearly in love, and the children pleasant and sociable and practiced their faith with some joy and didn't live under a cloud of "the world is evil" misery and make an amalgam of their views. Imitation is always easier than innovation and I am lazy.
Good question.Otherwise it would be an echo chamber.
Yeah, that modernism will evaporate, Vatican II will be forgotten and it rains beer from Heaven :cheers:You forgot that Poche is just fine with those things. Therefore, it makes sense that he would want to get rid of resistance to them.
"No need for a resistance" is a non Catholic concept.
We watch and pray and fight the battle everyday of our lives.
It's quite clear to me how much easier my life would be on the surface had I not made certain decisions to obey the Church rather than the world. Some people can hide a ruinous conscience better than others. You really can't base too much on casual observation.Interesting I have the opposite view. The only thing that convinces me the Church is correct is that by not fornicating, sacrificing my life to material gain (I earn a lot but I buy clothes in charity shops and second hand on ebay), I've had a better life (easier in many ways compared to divorced men). I've seen people earn 3 times what I make and have less at 50 after the stress and a couple of ex-wives have got their share. They fork a lot over to buy their children's attention (affection).
What could happen of course is that Frank does something completely NUTS which makes everyone Trad go SV en masse and a formal schism unfolds. Now that WOULD be a resistance all Traditionalists could get behind. With married priests, female priests or human-vitae overturned I think Trads would soon stop worrying about how "nasty" SVs are.Nope, not even those things.
Who knows what chaos Frank is capable of? He's certainly made Michael Voris wake up and begin to smell the coffee. Something tells me he ain't finished.
R&R people have a long history of not wanting to declare themselves as SV, (though try to find a portrait of the current Pope on their wall at home and you will be looking for a very long time). Practically speaking I see little difference. I certainly don't see SVs as bad and would probably be one myself if there was a decent SV chapel around my area.
Conservatives in the Church might switch if Frank jumps the shark in a way that leaves them no wiggle room. They aren't invested in years of telling SVs they are wrong.
I still think 2019 will be quiet, but Frank is pretty random.
Interesting I have the opposite view. The only thing that convinces me the Church is correct is that by not fornicating, sacrificing my life to material gain (I earn a lot but I buy clothes in charity shops and second hand on ebay), I've had a better life (easier in many ways compared to divorced men). I've seen people earn 3 times what I make and have less at 50 after the stress and a couple of ex-wives have got their share. They fork a lot over to buy their children's attention (affection).
Most decisions are based on casual observation. What other type of observation is there?
Time will tell. But for the tiny size of the resistance the various groups sure seem to have a lot of rancour.
Which resistance?Actually Bishop Fellay has done something in the past 6 years. Here is how far he was willing to go:
There are several flavours, each resisting the other as well as the SSPX.
I looked at the 2013 letter recently (the signatures) and with the British names (most of whom I know) I noted how many of them are going to SSPX masses every week in the UK. Had one of them over to dinner on New Years Day and he's given up since there were no masses to attend. He has 3 kids under 5. He now goes to the diocese TLMs and the SSPX exclusively. His children were baptised by the SSPX.
So unless Bishop Fellay does something in 2019 which he hasn't done for the past 6 years of Frank's reign then I'd suggest that things will just tick along.
Ha ha. I don't think St Patrick would let beer rain in Ireland...they deserve a "beer drought" (not draught) of a year or 2 for their acceptance of abortion.Forget the beer drought, just 3 days after the new law on abortion came into effect,
Forget the beer drought, just 3 days after the new law on abortion came into effect,working link:
the snake came back to Ireland.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/is-it-mere-coincidence-that-a-serpent-c
::)
You forgot that Poche is just fine with those things. Therefore, it makes sense that he would want to get rid of resistance to them.I am fine with the evaporation of modernism and if Heaven rains beer I would like to know where so that I could move there.
Ha ha. I don't think St Patrick would let beer rain in Ireland...they deserve a "beer drought" (not draught) of a year or 2 for their acceptance of abortion.
The only members of S.S.P.X are its religious and third order laity, to state there is growth among them, that it is in the wrong direction, really is foolish.I was talking about the laity.
The growth among laity is to have their right to the sacraments satisfied, and to say this right being satisfied is in the wrong direction is foolish.Disagree. People in the sspx are being given the sacraments but not the Faith.
It is only the rights of the laity to be satisfied by the religious, S.S.P.X. exists, and it is the only necessary standard. To learn the depth of Vatican II's problems, when on the side of the solution, is superfluous.One saves their soul by KNOWING the Faith, living it and spreading it. Vatican 2's goal was to destroy the Faith, which it did. Most people don't know their Faith, thus they split their time between the sspx, the indult and the novus ordo and don't see a difference. This lack of awareness will hinder people from salvation.
The need of S.S.P.X. to interact and be friends with Roman officials, is critical since non-members of S.S.P.X. remain the territory of their respective diocese or parish, it is imperative that their rights to the sacraments are again able to be satisfied in their respective diocese and parish.The new-sspx says that catholics CAN receive their sacraments in their local parishes. So why the need for the sspx at all?
Some of these interactions between the diocese and S.S.P.X. locations feasibly exist as a consequent of canon law, which is foolish to reject as members of The Latin Church.I don't understand.
I watched a Fulton Sheen lecture. He related a story. In so many words, he said, the boy saying God made so many things, that is what God does; God makes things. If Jesus Christ were God, then He would have made other Jesus's, but He didn't and that's why there is no God. That boy is right, said Bishop Fulton Sheen, but I'll go ahead and take "horrible examples of Christ's truth" anyway. We are made in that image of Jesus Christ, and if no one else sees that, then it is hard to know that Jesus Christ is real, but slowly to the satisfaction of a Latin Church member, and their rights to the sacrament: they convert through The Eucharist, to be Christ-like.We are all called to be Saints and examples of Christ. Those modernists in rome and all around the world, who run the dioceses, hate Christ. So, we avoid them and their heresies. For the sspx leaders to "make friends" with heretics and Christ-haters is an abomination and has no practical positives because it teaches the laity that it is ok to associate with error and to tolerate evil. We are the Church militant and we must defend Truth. Charity to God (i.e. defense of Truth) is higher than human charity.
I am fine with the evaporation of modernism and if Heaven rains beer I would like to know where so that I could move there.Ah, but you are fine with Vatican II. In fact, you are a proponent of it. That means you are also in favor of Modernism.
8) 8) 8)
This first statement "sspx are being given the sacraments but not the faith" is a contradiction.No it’s not. That you fail to see the difference is why you support +Fellay’s new-sspx, which is different from 20 yrs ago when +ABL was still around.
. . . Resisting the current SSPX trend to de-demonize Vatican II is the right thing to do, even if no one else is doing it. . . . Vatican II was not about the Mass. It was never about the Mass. It was about the FAITH. . . .Marcel Lefebvre in his 1974 declaration said, as an opening statement: ". . . We hold firmly . . . to Catholic Rome . . . We refuse on the other hand . . . to follow the Rome of Neo-Modernist and Neo-Protestant tendencies . . . ". Why demonize Vatican II? Modernist errors condemned should be sufficient. I believe that ggreg and his words, regarding children and what they remember, as well as a sustainable example provided to his children, should likely be given deeper consideration. The preliminary work to Vatican II went into the waste-bin, whatever Vatican II is about is only apparent after the fact of its closing. Let's not go so far beneath ourselves as Catholic faithful obliged to learn our faith, only to condemn it for the lesson we didn't pass.
Why demonize Vatican II? Modernist errors condemned should be sufficient.?? Errors and heresies are from the devil himself. To condemn V2 is to demonize it as well. Same thing.
Let's not go so far beneath ourselves as Catholic faithful obliged to learn our faith, only to condemn it for the lesson we didn't pass.Could you explain further?
?? Errors and heresies are from the devil himself. To condemn V2 is to demonize it as well. Same thing.Vatican II is not an error, but there is much in it worth learning, if you have a chance to again read Marcel Lefebvre's 1974 declaration his opening statements are very clear. I think that's where the lessons are to be found in part.
Could you explain further?
Vatican II is not an error, but there is much in it worth learningRight, it's not an error; it's a Council. The only things worth learning from V2 are 1) how NOT to write clearly and succinctly, 2) how NOT to think like a Catholic.
Ah, but you are fine with Vatican II. In fact, you are a proponent of it. That means you are also in favor of Modernism.I am against the heresy of modernism.
I am against the heresy of modernism.That would mean you'd have to be against four Baptisms... right?
I would say the status of the resistance in 2019 is slowly deteriorating and dying, Dont see any progress or hope for them.Bishop Zendajas announced last Sunday the SAJM long term goals of having a U.S. based seminary, U.S. based convent and regular church buildings for the three main SAJM chapels in the USA.
That would mean you'd have to be against four Baptisms... right?There is only one baptism.
R&R people have a long history of not wanting to declare themselves as SV, (though try to find a portrait of the current Pope on their wall at home and you will be looking for a very long time). Practically speaking I see little difference. I certainly don't see SVs as bad and would probably be one myself if there was a decent SV chapel around my area.
How would you rate the status of the resistance in 2019? Still necessary? Strong? Weak?Paranoid or secret.
Paranoid or secret.
Can't find a mass locations, can't find contacts, seems to be by invitation only.
I might be wrong. In which case the resistance will have better fruits and thrive over the long term. But over the last 5 years my predictions have been correct. I predicted from the get-go that a bunch of people resisting something that did not actually happen would very soon start resisting (finding fault) in each other. Which is exactly what happened.You were wrong.
You were wrong.I would be interested in seeing this list. I know one of those things is their change in position on the Validity of the New Rite of Episcopal Consecrations in 2005.
You claim that the sellout hasn't happened. I say it has. Oh, they haven't signed on any dotted line with huge fanfare, but they're doing something even more diabolically clever: making a deal with Rome piecemeal. Each piece isn't big enough to drop anyone's jaw, or get any SSPX Trads to jump ship. It's death by a thousand cuts, or "frog boiling".
Just look at all the agreements with Rome over the past few years. Others have actually catalogued them. I'm sure someone could find the list for you. They are giving explicit or tacit approval to each of the Sacraments given by the SSPX, one by one.
How can you say "nothing has happened"? That's insane.
A low-key, secret or piecemeal deal over 10 years is still a sellout.
Exactly.
I have to PM you to find out where and when masses are. Why aren't they listed on a website for the sajm somewhere? I travel a lot and it sure would be nice to have a listing rather than having to ask you every time i travel.
Which is why i said what i said.
no attack intended. Just would like to go to mass.
Exactly.I thought Resistance masses are included in the Traditional Mass Directory on traditio.com....?
I have to PM you to find out where and when masses are. Why aren't they listed on a website for the sajm somewhere? I travel a lot and it sure would be nice to have a listing rather than having to ask you every time i travel.
Which is why i said what i said.
no attack intended. Just would like to go to mass.
I thought Resistance masses are included in the Traditional Mass Directory on traditio.com....?
I might as well just list Bp. Zendejas' Mass locations here:Plus once a month in Natural Bridge Station, VA.
Apologies if I've left any out. I don't exactly have a sheet with all the Mass locations on it.
Exactly.They probably don't have the manpower to create/maintain the directory. Volunteers are scarce, or already allocated elsewhere.
I have to PM you to find out where and when masses are. Why aren't they listed on a website for the sajm somewhere? I travel a lot and it sure would be nice to have a listing rather than having to ask you every time i travel.
Which is why i said what i said.
no attack intended. Just would like to go to mass.
Samuel Loeman, who had started a directory, recently had another meltdown and shut down his site (for the umpteenth time) so now that's gone.
According to the Tradidi website, Samuel has decided not to shut down the website after all. So it's going as usual. That is, until the next time he gets upset with Bp. Williamson.
I'm glad to hear that.A good start, but much is left out.
There just aren't that many. Attempts have been made to create a "directory" but a directory of 8 Mass centers is kind of a joke. I might as well just list Bp. Zendejas' Mass locations here:
Main chapels/priories/regional HQs with weekly Mass:
Houston (La Marque) 9:00 AM Sundays
Connecticut
Weekly or near-weekly Mass:
St. Mary's, KS
Mission chapels with monthly Mass:
Philadelphia
San Antonio (Seguin) Mass 1st Sundays at 4:00 PM, Confession 30 min. before Mass
Toronto
Natural Bridge Station, VA. Masses: 1st Sundays at noon, Confession 30 min. before Mass
Fr. Girouard is in the Northwest
Fr. Morel is in Louisiana
Fr. Voigt is in Minnesota and perhaps Syracuse.
Apologies if I've left any out. I don't exactly have a sheet with all the Mass locations on it.
Paranoid or secret.I think that if you are going to be a mass coordinator for this type of group then you should make yourself known so that other people can know about you and that they can take advantage of the opportunity to assist at the Holy Mass. Also it should be remembered;
Can't find a mass locations, can't find contacts, seems to be by invitation only.
I think that if you are going to be a mass coordinator for this type of group then you should make yourself known so that other people can know about you and that they can take advantage of the opportunity to assist at the Holy Mass. Also it should be remembered;Could the open publication of Traditional Latin Mass times and locations pose a problem with a possible fαℓѕє fℓαg shooting?
From the Code of Canon Law;
Can. 1221 Entry to a church is to be free and gratuitous during the time of sacred celebrations.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4H.HTM