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Offline jman123

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Status of the resistance in 2019
« on: January 14, 2019, 09:46:27 AM »
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  • How would you rate the status of the resistance in 2019? Still necessary? Strong? Weak?

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Status of the resistance in 2019
    « Reply #1 on: January 14, 2019, 11:19:42 AM »
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  • I pray that in this year the situation will be such that there will be no need for a resistance as such.
    :pray: :pray: :pray:

    Yeah, that modernism will evaporate, Vatican II will be forgotten and it rains beer from Heaven :cheers:

    "No need for a resistance" is a non Catholic concept.

    We watch and pray and fight the battle everyday of our lives.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Vintagewife3

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    Re: Status of the resistance in 2019
    « Reply #2 on: January 14, 2019, 11:23:57 AM »
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  • Of course it’s still necessary! We must always  resist, and the mockery of Gods church.

    Offline ggreg

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    Re: Status of the resistance in 2019
    « Reply #3 on: January 15, 2019, 07:00:18 AM »
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  • Which resistance?

    There are several flavours, each resisting the other as well as the SSPX.

    I looked at the 2013 letter recently (the signatures) and with the British names (most of whom I know) I noted how many of them are going to SSPX masses every week in the UK.  Had one of them over to dinner on New Years Day and he's given up since there were no masses to attend.  He has 3 kids under 5.  He now goes to the diocese TLMs and the SSPX exclusively.  His children were baptised by the SSPX.

    So unless Bishop Fellay does something in 2019 which he hasn't done for the past 6 years of Frank's reign then I'd suggest that things will just tick along.

    Offline ggreg

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    Re: Status of the resistance in 2019
    « Reply #4 on: January 15, 2019, 07:28:19 AM »
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  • What could happen of course is that Frank does something completely NUTS which makes everyone Trad go SV en masse and a formal schism unfolds.  Now that WOULD be a resistance all Traditionalists could get behind.  With married priests, female priests or human-vitae overturned I think Trads would soon stop worrying about how "nasty" SVs are.

    Who knows what chaos Frank is capable of?  He's certainly made Michael Voris wake up and begin to smell the coffee.  Something tells me he ain't finished.

    R&R people have a long history of not wanting to declare themselves as SV, (though try to find a portrait of the current Pope on their wall at home and you will be looking for a very long time).  Practically speaking I see little difference.  I certainly don't see SVs as bad and would probably be one myself if there was a decent SV chapel around my area.

    Conservatives in the Church might switch if Frank jumps the shark in a way that leaves them no wiggle room.  They aren't invested in years of telling SVs they are wrong.

    I still think 2019 will be quiet, but Frank is pretty random.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Status of the resistance in 2019
    « Reply #5 on: January 15, 2019, 07:54:38 AM »
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  • The Resistance is small in numbers, but strong in its position.

    Are you surprised that so few have jumped on board? Let's see...we have two options before the average Trad (specifically, "SSPX-attending in 2012") Catholic family.

    1. Keep going to your deluxe, well equipped, organized Trad chapel with weekly Sunday Mass if not better, with dozens (if not hundreds) of parishioners, friends, potential spouses for your children, potential business contacts, etc.

    2. Leave the SSPX and find another chapel, which often means being home alone on Sunday or at least attending Mass only once a month or less. And these Masses will not be as well-attended, might suffer to some degree in terms of aesthetics, music, equipment, atmosphere, personnel/organization, regularity of Mass time, etc.

    Is it any surprise that 95-99% of Trads went with option 1? If you know human nature at all, you would not be surprised in the least.

    Nevertheless, Resisting the current SSPX trend to de-demonize Vatican II is the right thing to do, even if no one else is doing it. As for your children, what better gift than to teach them how evil Vatican II is, by demonstrating WITH OUR ACTIONS what we're willing to give up?

    If you think the Mass is important, let me tell you: the Faith is even more important. The Mass exists for the Faith, and not vice-versa. Faith comes first. Without Faith, we can't enter into the kingdom of heaven. 

    And a few words for the foolish: Vatican II was not about the Mass. It was never about the Mass. It was about the FAITH. Traditional Catholics are, by definition, supposed to understand this. If you think it's just a problem of Liturgy, you are a conservative Catholic, not a Trad. A lot of "Latin Mass" Catholics seem a lot like Trads, but they aren't Trads because they don't believe in a real Crisis in the Church. They think as long as they have a Latin Mass, they're all good.
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    Offline ggreg

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    Re: Status of the resistance in 2019
    « Reply #6 on: January 15, 2019, 09:18:29 AM »
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  • I judge a tree by its fruits.

    If resistance people had better fruits I would join them.

    But they don't, at least, not in my experience.  Remember I've been a Trad since 1978 so I've seen these people grow up, change, get annulments, divorce, go to jail, fail to get married, as well as their success stories.  I remember them as teenagers whether they were chasing girls or attending my parties or on the Chartres Pilgrimage.  I've seen them have vocations, fail at vocations and quit Catholicism altogether.  I've seen functional families who have keep ALL of their children going to mass and dysfunctional ones who have lost the majority of their children.

    That's the reason why I am Kung Fu.  I go to Mass wherever works for me at the time, if the priest changes for a legalistic nutter or lacks charity, or a liberal from The Faith Movement, then I leave and go somewhere else.  Ultimately the message I want to send to my children is THIS IS SUSTAINABLE.  I don't fully commit to anywhere, so I am fairly immune from changes which tend to happen and are outside of my control.

    There is a definite credibility problem in the eyes of your children if you go along to the SSPX, then resist, then go Sede, the bounce back to the indult and with each step you demonize the last group you left.  As much as you dislike Fr. Pfeiffer today, 4-5 years ago you were singing his praises.  He was the same man back then with the same inherent faults, they didn't come out of a vacuum.  You can delete those old threads from the forum and try to sanitize history, but one cannot fool one's own children and delete their memories.  They remember that you were just as committed to Pfeifferville in 2019 as you were to Econe in 2007 or Michael Voris in 2012.

    I think this is a MAJOR factor in people not joining one of the various resistances.  At least the people I have spoken to who either thought about joining and didn't, or, who joined and then left.

    Take the best resistance chapel in the world and line it up against St. Bedes, Clapham Park, London and over a 30 year period you will see much better fruits from St. Bedes in my estimation.

    Factors such as:

    1.  How many people are still married.
    2.  Whether there was any paedophilia or other sicko sexual perverts tolerated.  Which has a lot to do with priests listening to complaints
    3.  Whether the next generation practices their faith.  If they don't what was the point?
    4.  Whether there is charity and good healthy function or whether a spirit of backbiting and factionalism reigns.
    5.  Whether people have jobs and function as economically functional beings.  Can they afford to have large families which is a mark of the acceptance of the providence of God.  I have never been impressed with Trads who get married have 3 children in 6 years and then "stop".
    6.  Do people attend sacraments and events outside of Sunday mass?

    In my estimation, what the resistance is today, ALWAYS existed in the SSPX.  I saw it in the USA in 1987 and again in 1993.  I saw it in Australia 1994-1997.  Saw it in France 1997-1999.  Saw it under Fr. Morgan and Fr. King in the UK.  The people who signed that letter I could have predicted with 80% accuracy.

    I might be wrong.  In which case the resistance will have better fruits and thrive over the long term.  But over the last 5 years my predictions have been correct.  I predicted from the get-go that a bunch of people resisting something that did not actually happen would very soon start resisting (finding fault) in each other.  Which is exactly what happened.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Status of the resistance in 2019
    « Reply #7 on: January 15, 2019, 10:20:23 AM »
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  • Quote
    Yeah, that modernism will evaporate, Vatican II will be forgotten and it rains beer from Heaven

    Ha ha.  I don't think St Patrick would let beer rain in Ireland...they deserve a "beer drought" (not draught) of a year or 2 for their acceptance of abortion.


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Status of the resistance in 2019
    « Reply #8 on: January 15, 2019, 10:31:35 AM »
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  • Quote
    I still think 2019 will be quiet, but Frank is pretty random.
    If +Francis resigns and a "moderate" pope is elected, then I could see the sspx make a deal.  This could easily happen in 2019.


    Quote
    I predicted from the get-go that a bunch of people resisting something that did not actually happen would very soon start resisting (finding fault) in each other.  Which is exactly what happened.
    Of course, that will happen in any group that forms quickly, out of necessity, and without a true leader, which is what happened with the resistance.  But, by and large, it's operating well and other than Fr Pfeiffer what other problems are there?  It's growing, it's becoming more organized and it's keeping the Faith alive - all that you can ask.


    Quote
    If you think the Mass is important, let me tell you: the Faith is even more important. The Mass exists for the Faith, and not vice-versa. Faith comes first. Without Faith, we can't enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    And a few words for the foolish: Vatican II was not about the Mass. It was never about the Mass. It was about the FAITH.
    Agree totally.  Somehow most of the millenial generation didn't get this message from their baby boomer parents, which is why the millenials have mostly joined the indult to be "under rome".  They don't understand the Faith; they just want the mass...which will not help them, spiritually, in the long run.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Status of the resistance in 2019
    « Reply #9 on: January 15, 2019, 10:39:45 AM »
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  • There is a definite credibility problem in the eyes of your children if you go along to the SSPX, then resist, then go Sede, the bounce back to the indult and with each step you demonize the last group you left.  As much as you dislike Fr. Pfeiffer today, 4-5 years ago you were singing his praises.  He was the same man back then with the same inherent faults, they didn't come out of a vacuum.  You can delete those old threads from the forum and try to sanitize history, but one cannot fool one's own children and delete their memories.  They remember that you were just as committed to Pfeifferville in 2019 as you were to Econe in 2007 or Michael Voris in 2012.

    I think this is a MAJOR factor in people not joining one of the various resistances.  At least the people I have spoken to who either thought about joining and didn't, or, who joined and then left.

    There is a lot to respond to in such a large post, but this is the part that had me fall off my chair.

    The problem I have with your argumentation is that you assume a group can't change in a fundamental way. Which leads us to the 1st point I have a problem with. Your unspoken minor is:

    1. [unspoken minor] If you cease supporting a group/priest, it's because you changed, not the group or priest.
    This is manifestly false: The only debate is about HOW OFTEN this is not the case, or in which specific instances this is not the case.

    For all the other points, I will take direct quotes from your post:

    2. "you go along to the SSPX, then resist, then go Sede, the bounce back to the indult"
    Not every Trad is this flaky. I'm not talking about changing groups as their understanding of the Crisis and/or the groups themselves change, I'm talking about bouncing around to the left AND the right.

    3. "and with each step you demonize the last group you left"
    This depends on why you left the group you did. If the group/priest went off the rails, or is guilty of some action against Faith or against the fundamentals of the Trad movement, then a certain amount of criticism is called for, within the bounds of truth and Catholic charity of course.

    4. "As much as you dislike Fr. Pfeiffer today, 4-5 years ago you were singing his praises."
    See my response to #1. In the case of Fr. Pfeiffer, he was not the same in 2012 when I (for example) supported him. He was a pioneer, very off-the-cuff, but these were also symptoms of his basic faults (lack of discipline, lack of obedience) which didn't become clear until later -- when he committed clear derelictions against truth and charity: slandering/attacking fellow Resistance priests and bishops, for example. Stubbornly keeping Pablo the apostate in charge of his "seminary". Ambrose Moran. Fr. Tetherow. The list goes on. I didn't support Fr. Pfeiffer for a single day while he worked the above evils. I jumped ship as soon as Fr. Pfeiffer changed or fell from grace. So speak for yourself on this heading!

    I agree with you insofar as parents need to jump ship right away -- as soon as compromises/evils appear -- to be able to maintain credibility or the high ground. If you compromise and hang around too long, THAT is when you become personally guilty of supporting the wrong group/priest.

    5. "You can delete those old threads from the forum and try to sanitize history"
    Sorry, Ggreg, but I'm going to have to fact-check you on this one. What are you talking about? You can't just make stuff up and throw out wild accusations. Some examples, please. Please, tell us what threads I deleted to "sanitize history". The FACTS are that I left all the threads related to the Resistance from the earliest days up to the present. If a person wanted to write a book on the movement, they would find CathInfo a great resource. Except for clear cases of slander, etc. I kept to my usual hands-off moderation policy. For example, I left all the threads where I supported or promoted Fr. Pfeiffer, because they also have a timestamp on them. People can do the math.

    6. "They remember that you were just as committed to Pfeifferville in 2019"
    See my response to #4. Anyone supporting Pfeifferville in 2019 despite all the things Fr. Pfeiffer has done -- in the public domain and documented for all to see -- is a lost cause. I think you're exaggerating which you tend to do. More likely, many people supported Fr. Pfeiffer in 2012-2014, and by then most Catholics of good will got off the Pfeiffer train.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Status of the resistance in 2019
    « Reply #10 on: January 15, 2019, 10:50:56 AM »
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  • By the way, Ggreg, you may be richer, more worldly wise and well travelled than me, but you're also OLDER which is why you speak about being a trad since 1978. I have been a Trad for a couple years longer than that, but I was a baby so it wasn't quite the same.

    I'm a big picture person myself. I believe I've noticed some patterns (and dare say, formed/absorbed some wisdom from my betters) over the years.

    I see the Trad struggle as a struggle of Catholics against the World. The more the (modern) World is trusted and let in, the worse things get. But Trad Catholics are all constantly assaulted by the world, and they all have Original Sin and Free Will, despite what group they are in.

    The million dollar question is: Does the priest/group do its best to fight the world and be a good pastor? Or, in other words, is there a fundamental reason why the group is failing to guide its flock through the storm?

    The SSPX is getting defensive and ashamed about its beliefs (on the Jewish question, for example), at least in front of the world. This is a bad sign, and a fundamental issue. They care what the world thinks. They are concerned with numbers rather than the Faith. Our Lord didn't pay a corporate branding company to help Him gain a better "image" and thus more converts.

    The SSPX also mocks the quintessential Trad attitude towards Vatican II. +Fellay mocked those who treat Vatican II as a "superheresy" and others have used the term "bogeyman". Vatican II IS a superheresy, it can't be hated enough, and every Trad worthy of the name knows that! Trads have always known that Vatican II isn't "95% good" or "95% Catholic" any more than a soda with 5% arsenic is "95% good". On the contrary, the whole is to be avoided, treated as garbage and be thrown out, not accepted.

    A parent can do everything right and still lose child(ren) to the world because of Free Will.
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Status of the resistance in 2019
    « Reply #11 on: January 15, 2019, 10:57:23 AM »
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  • Greg, I get what you're saying, generally, but specifically I could debate some of your philosophies.

    In both of the situations below 1) you bounce around consistantly or 2) you put down roots but have to change chapels after a while...in both of these situations, you still have to explain the lack of stability and reasons for change to your children.  The only difference is the # of times you have to explain it.

    Secondly, you're teaching your children that they have no obligations to a particular chapel, other than putting $ in the collection.  If you bounce around too much, then you have no obligations to go to chapel work days, or fundraisers or any social functions.  This isn't necessarily bad (and it may be necessary in some situations) but it's not ideal and doesn't impart to your children the idea of community and a parish (however small of a community we Trads are able to create).

    I'm not trying to critcize your situation or say your approach is wrong (nothing in our Catholic life is ideal these days), i'm just saying that it's unfair to say that your situation/approach is the best, when certainly, every Trad situation has its pros and cons.

    Quote
    I go to Mass wherever works for me at the time, if the priest changes for a legalistic nutter or lacks charity, or a liberal from The Faith Movement, then I leave and go somewhere else.  Ultimately the message I want to send to my children is THIS IS SUSTAINABLE.  I don't fully commit to anywhere, so I am fairly immune from changes which tend to happen and are outside of my control.
    Quote
    There is a definite credibility problem in the eyes of your children if you go along to the SSPX, then resist, then go Sede, the bounce back to the indult and with each step you demonize the last group you left.

    Offline Quid Retribuam Domino

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    Re: Status of the resistance in 2019
    « Reply #12 on: January 15, 2019, 10:59:31 AM »
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  • [quoting ggreg] 6. "They remember that you were just as committed to Pfeifferville in 2019"

    I had to read that one by ggreg a few times. I think what ggreg meant is people's memories, today, in 2019, remember you were committed to Pfeiffer in 2012ish, but he worded the sentence wrong which makes it seem like you supported Pfeiffer as recently as this new year.

    I'm not saying I agree with ggreg's post at all. I'm just pointing out that particular part by ggreg that's confusing.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Status of the resistance in 2019
    « Reply #13 on: January 15, 2019, 11:12:24 AM »
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  • I agree with Pax Vobis, but he's too nice.

    Ggreg:

    Quote
    I go to Mass wherever works for me at the time, if the priest changes for a legalistic nutter or lacks charity, or a liberal from The Faith Movement, then I leave and go somewhere else.  Ultimately the message I want to send to my children is THIS IS SUSTAINABLE.  I don't fully commit to anywhere, so I am fairly immune from changes which tend to happen and are outside of my control.

    Quote
    Quote
    There is a definite credibility problem in the eyes of your children if you go along to the SSPX, then resist, then go Sede, the bounce back to the indult and with each step you demonize the last group you left.
    I'd say Ggreg is contradicting himself, or being outright hypocritical here. "When I leave, it's different because they are a "nutter", they lack charity, or they are a liberal. But when other people leave, they maliciously slander the perfectly innocent group they left."
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    Offline ggreg

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    Re: Status of the resistance in 2019
    « Reply #14 on: January 15, 2019, 11:14:07 AM »
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  • I see the Trad struggle as a struggle of Catholics against the World. 

    So do I.  Who is winning?
    The million dollar question is: Does the priest/group do its best to fight the world and be a good pastor? Or, in other words, is there a fundamental reason why the group is failing to guide its flock through the storm? 
    I'd argue that, long term, the fruits show that.  A good tree does not produce bad fruits.
    Failing to guide?  Difficult to know which is the right path to be guided by.  If talking to Rome is bad, then why is SV'ism not good?
    Some pro-Pfeiffer people would and I sure do accuse you and other resistance priests of failing to guide.  Bishop Williamson retired by the seaside not 40 miles from my house could rightly have that accusation thrown at him.  There were those who thought he would step up to the plate, but he appear to be content to consult and blog. 
    A parent can do everything right and still lose child(ren) to the world because of Free Will.
    They can, but we are talking about a population here, not specific examples.  I am sure there are great resistance families who do everything right.  There are also Medjugorje nuts who have 10 kids and it all pans out for them.  Exceptions don't impact the rule.
    Generally speaking a family that does EVERYTHING right or even 90% right if they have 7-9 kids will lose 1. 
    If they lose half, they did not do everything right.
    I am basing my observation on populations over 40 years.  EVERYONE I know, not on a few examples.
    If free will is as random as that then one cannot judge a tree by its fruits.
    People can die in car crashes, but drunk drivers are more likely to be killed.
    People can die of lung cancer, but heavy smokers are much more likely to die of lung cancer.
    It is exactly the same argument with contraception.  The average family size of a Catholic parish family or the average size across a state or a country tells you whether the population of couples is really open to life or whether they are just contracepting by other means.  An individual family cannot be judged (woman or man might have fertility problems) but MOST PEOPLE MOST OF THE TIME don't have fertility problems.  So if the average family size is 3 or 4 children then the majority are contracepting in some fashion.  To conclude anything else is wishful thinking and flies in the face of biology.

     

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