Author Topic: Stating the obvious - the SSPX is big (Read 8127 times)

Matthew · « **on:** April 16, 2014, 09:57:39 PM »

As we fight the changes in the SSPX, and its new orientation towards modernist Rome, let's remember one of the fundamental truths in this struggle -- part of why this fight is so urgent. Although we strongly disagree with the neo-SSPX, we must nevertheless give them their due:

When it comes to Traditional Catholicism, the SSPX is big. The biggest.

There's a reason why the the fall of the SSPX is a big deal. It IS the largest, most influential and organized group of Traditional Catholics by far.

So much so, that some even compare its organization with the Catholic Church itself -- which is why some accuse the SSPX of "schism". You don't hear any other groups accused of schism very often.

To use an analogy: In terms of numbers and influence, the SSPX would be "gold" where CMRI would be "silver". Gold is $1300/ounce; Silver is $20/ounce.

Am I off? I'm not talking about which is better today, which group is more "true" or anything like that. I'm just talking facts. They're both Traditional Catholic groups, but what is the relative size of each?

I get the impression that the SSPX is by far the largest -- such that if the SSPX were to fall, Rome wouldn't have much to worry about. There would just be a scattered remnant here and there. The number of de-facto "home aloners" would skyrocket if the SSPX went out of business tomorrow.

Matthew · « **Reply #1 on:** April 16, 2014, 10:08:01 PM »

To clarify my post:

I'm basically pointing out that we shouldn't have "sour grapes" about the SSPX.

Just because the SSPX went bad doesn't mean it was always bad -- that "nothing was lost" -- because that is obviously false. This is a drop-dead tragedy; a slow motion train wreck -- and don't any of you forget it.

"Sour grapes" and the Truth are two different things.

What we should say is, "Those grapes are perfectly ripe, sweet, healthy, and it's a crying shame I can't reach them." rather than the classic, "Those grapes were probably sour anyway..."

Truth is our friend. Even when it hurts.

Matthew · « **Reply #2 on:** April 16, 2014, 10:10:23 PM »

Would the anonymous coward care to share his thoughts with the rest of us?

Nickolas · « **Reply #3 on:** April 16, 2014, 11:17:15 PM »

Interesting thought Matthew. Do we have any reason to believe, though, that the saved will be anything but a remnant of the Church? As we look at the size of the SSPX and size of the Conciliar Church, what does it matter what size they are? They are what they are and as times pass, creeping modernism makes the division between the two seem less obvious. The Conciliar Church is real big which only increases the degree of tragedy inside it.

The fact is, not only has the essence of the SSPX changed, the people have too. I am a relatively new Catholic, but even I can see the difference between the Traditional Catholic of 7-9 years ago and today. The Society and folks who warm its pews are lukewarm and have lost their spirit and it is a sad thing to see.

I am afraid I cannot give the Society their due. Whatever credit they have on their side was built by those who have either past on or still there, but have lost whatever fight was in them. My study of the interior politics within the Society is disheartening and I sometimes wonder if it is really worth trying to save, but that is not my call.

The Conciliar Church has gotten so bad and modern, it doesn't take much to please the average Trad Catholic and perhaps this is the downfall of priests and laity.
When the Society and its supporters allows its Superior General and its priests to say Vatican II is 95% ok with hardly a whimper of reaction, that says a lot about whether they can really be called Traditional Catholics but for the form of Mass they celebrate.

PS: The thumbs down was not me. Interesting topic.

Ambrose · « **Reply #4 on:** April 16, 2014, 11:55:43 PM »

A wise and holy CMRI religious once told me that if CMRI fails to do God's Will, then God will choose others who will obey Him. I also believe this equally applies to SSPX.

It is a sad reality, but if SSPX does in the end compromise, God will choose others. The SSPX as large as they are with their vast resources and hundreds of priests are tiny compared to the pre Vatican II Church. The SSPX are like an ant standing next to an elephant of the Church under Pope Pius XII. God permitted thousands of bishops and hundreds of thousands of priests to embrace the Vatican II religion, so what is the SSPX in comparison to that?

In my opinion, the only way out of their predicament is to recognize Francis for who is truly is: a heretic, usurper, and antipope. If the SSPX recognizes this fact, they are the only group on earth with the resources to identify the remaining lawful electors, (the remaining faithful members of the hierarchy and Roman clergy), convince them to act, and elect a Pope.

If the SSPX fails to be a part of ending this crisis let us pray that God will send us others to end it.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #5 on:** April 17, 2014, 03:36:56 AM »

..

Typo!

Quote from: Matthew

Would the anonymous coward care to share his thoughts with the rest of us?

:confused1:

BTW I liked this post because I like clarification. HAHAHAHAHA

.

Wessex · « **Reply #6 on:** April 17, 2014, 05:14:42 AM »

A good question would be to define the Society as it is now and what it was in the early days. Looking for Catholic truth may have been a fair explanation then and was an admirable venture before the mechanics of organisation were determined to spoil things and make off with its innocence. Are we not now a million miles from those heady days with the current idea of some special arrangement with the Roman juggernaut ..... simply because it exists and cannot be budged?

Tiffany · « **Reply #7 on:** April 17, 2014, 05:25:47 AM »

The size of trads if it's the SSPX or independent chapels isn't what prompts Rome to worry or to throw trads crumbs. It's the tradition, Mass, the truth.

Tiffany · « **Reply #8 on:** April 17, 2014, 05:34:57 AM »

Quote from: Ambrose

A wise and holy CMRI religious once told me that if CMRI fails to do God's Will, then God will choose others who will obey Him. I also believe this equally applies to SSPX.

It is a sad reality, but if SSPX does in the end compromise, God will choose others. The SSPX as large as they are with their vast resources and hundreds of priests are tiny compared to the pre Vatican II Church. The SSPX are like an ant standing next to an elephant of the Church under Pope Pius XII. God permitted thousands of bishops and hundreds of thousands of priests to embrace the Vatican II religion, so what is the SSPX in comparison to that?

In my opinion, the only way out of their predicament is to recognize Francis for who is truly is: a heretic, usurper, and antipope. If the SSPX recognizes this fact, they are the only group on earth with the resources to identify the remaining lawful electors, (the remaining faithful members of the hierarchy and Roman clergy), convince them to act, and elect a Pope.

If the SSPX fails to be a part of ending this crisis let us pray that God will send us others to end it.

I didn't have the best experience with CMRI but this is a GREAT post. Like Luke 19 says the stones will cry out.

andysloan · « **Reply #9 on:** April 17, 2014, 07:53:16 AM »

Matthew said:

"To use an analogy: In terms of numbers and influence, the SSPX would be "gold" where CMRI would be "silver". Gold is $1300/ounce; Silver is $20/ounce."

It is a grave mistake to think that just because the CMRI holds to traditional practice that it is acceptable. This is a deception of the devil.

On the contrary, it is a schismatic group:

"a schismatic is one who holds the same faith, and practises the same worship, as others, and takes pleasure in the mere disunion of the community" - St Augustine

The sedevacantists can convince themselves what they like, but the following remains true:

"We declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302).

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jєωs and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

(Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

Luke 16:14-15

"Now the Pharisees, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. And he said to them: You are they who justify yourselves before men, but God knoweth your hearts;"

2 Peter 2:1-3

"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their riotousnesses, through whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you. Whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their perdition slumbereth not."

Tiffany · « **Reply #10 on:** April 17, 2014, 08:19:24 AM »

The NO is not stable, they are crumbs of truth here and there but there is little stability of right truth in it and a lot of secular humanism influence.

Very old people seem to be the only ones with stability and sense and proper ways, honestly just being around them brings me to tears sometimes from their example, but I don't know how they keep in it.

Tiffany · « **Reply #11 on:** April 17, 2014, 08:24:03 AM »

How can we be subject to the Roman Pontiff when they teach things against nature, modernism, and harmful things to our children. We have bishops applauding sodomy, Pope who gave instructions on how to commit sodomy as a commodity, Pope who gave teaching against natural family life, bishops who put their stamp and funding for sex-education for our innocent children, priests who join together with heretics for "community services" it's all dangerous for our children.

andysloan · « **Reply #12 on:** April 17, 2014, 09:18:57 AM »

Ambrose said:

"In my opinion, the only way out of their predicament is to recognize Francis for who is truly is: a heretic, usurper, and antipope."

Ambrose enjoys saying things like this. And the higher the person in authority, the better, because the inner sense of prideful superiority is intensified:

Luke 18:11

"The Pharisee standing, prayed thus with himself: O God, I give thee thanks that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, as also is this publican."

Luke 16:14

"Now the Pharisees, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him."

Matthew · « **Reply #13 on:** April 17, 2014, 09:22:36 AM »

Quote from: Nickolas

Interesting thought Matthew. Do we have any reason to believe, though, that the saved will be anything but a remnant of the Church? As we look at the size of the SSPX and size of the Conciliar Church, what does it matter what size they are? They are what they are and as times pass, creeping modernism makes the division between the two seem less obvious. The Conciliar Church is real big which only increases the degree of tragedy inside it.

The fact is, not only has the essence of the SSPX changed, the people have too. I am a relatively new Catholic, but even I can see the difference between the Traditional Catholic of 7-9 years ago and today. The Society and folks who warm its pews are lukewarm and have lost their spirit and it is a sad thing to see.

I am afraid I cannot give the Society their due. Whatever credit they have on their side was built by those who have either past on or still there, but have lost whatever fight was in them. My study of the interior politics within the Society is disheartening and I sometimes wonder if it is really worth trying to save, but that is not my call.

Ok, I'll clarify again -- *whenever* the SSPX lost its way, it was a tragedy. 2 years ago, 10 years ago, etc. The point is that the SSPX was/is huge, and when a body of Catholics that large loses its way, that's a red letter day.

We're all marching onward every day towards fulfilling God's will. Part of that onward march (to how things will be) might involve one or more reductions of the Church in size. Each reduction is a tragedy. Nevermind if it's God's will. It's still a bad thing, a loss, something to be mourned. That was the only point of my post.

Not everything God wills -- or permits -- is immediately sweet to us, or to the welfare of the world. Some things are only "good" because of a greater good that's in the works. Bulldozing my house would be horrible -- but if it's followed by building a house twice as big in the same spot, then THAT part would be good. That greater good we can be joyful and hopeful about, and of course we should trust in God. He can write straight with crooked lines, but crooked lines are still a bad thing on our part, objectively speaking.

A person dying is also God's will. That doesn't mean we shouldn't admit it's a loss, and mourn it. Should we claim the person was trash and was a waste of air to begin with? Of course not. We should cry when a loved one dies, keeping all things in due proportion and perspective.

I also wasn't claiming that the SSPX will turn around. I personally think it's doomed, humanly speaking. There are too many priests -- young and old alike -- who are infatuated with a practical agreement and Roman approval. It's a split that's there whether or not the Resistance lifts a finger.

I agree -- more and more modern-day Trads (the majority of which are SSPX, and these are the ones I'm speaking about in this paragraph) have lost sight of what Tradition is about -- it's reason for being, justification, ideals, etc.

I got involved with the SSPX in 2000 after reading a bunch of the Abp Lefebvre books. I was inspired by the courage, wisdom, and especially prudence the Archbishop showed. I recognized that same spirit at the U.S. Seminary back then (which was headed by +W). There was a wonderful continuity and unity, and I was glad to be a part of such a blessed group.

But these days, I certainly see a change myself in the spirit coming out of the seminary, coming out of U.S. District Headquarters, and coming out of Menzingen.

andysloan · « **Reply #14 on:** April 17, 2014, 09:35:06 AM »

Tiffany said:

"How can we be subject to the Roman Pontiff when they teach things against nature, modernism, and harmful things to our children. We have bishops applauding sodomy, Pope who gave instructions on how to commit sodomy as a commodity, Pope who gave teaching against natural family life, bishops who put their stamp and funding for sex-education for our innocent children, priests who join together with heretics for "community services" it's all dangerous for our children."

What we are concerned with is to uphold the necessity to be subject to the pope in our hearts. He is guaranteed infallibility but not personal indefectibility.

The church is in a mess and certainly Pope Francis has been loose, giving immense ammunition to the haters of the church. But we are strictly bound, as a matter of salvation, to remain loyal to the sovereign pontiff.

We need to be careful these days about what we attribute to the popes themselves given the power of masonry within the church. Recall:

"During an audience with the Pope, Bishop Fellay found himself alone with the Pope for a moment. His Excellency seized the opportunity to remind the Pope that he is the Vicar of Christ, possessed of the authority to take immediate measures to end the crisis in the Church on all fronts. The Pope replied thus: “My authority ends at that door.” (Castel Gondolfo August, 2005)

and in example:

"According to the CDW’s 1994 advisory, “Pope John Paul II confirmed the [PCILT] decision and ordered its promulgation,” but there is no written evidence or other particulars concerning this “order,” such as the date it was purportedly given. Further, the papal “order” approving altar girls contradicted the papal order reflected in Inestimabile Donum, the 1980 instruction by which the CDW advised that “Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers” and that “[t]his instruction… was approved on April 17, 1980, by the Holy Father, John Paul II, who confirmed it with his own authority and ordered it to be published and to be observed by all concerned.” No explanation has ever been offered for the Pope’s purported reversal of his own prior order. Evidently, it was deemed sufficient merely to report that the Legislating Church had repealed its prior legislation, and that the Pope had endorsed the repeal.
So, it is the Legislating Church, not papal commands as such, that has produced the “auto-demolition” belatedly lamented"

From:

http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2012-0615-ferrara-vatileaks.htm

Read, discern pray regarding the following exorcism:

It will resolve a thousand anxieties and queries:

https://www.tldm.org/News4/WarningsFromBeyond.1of3.htm

(ignore the Bayside attachment - it contradicts Bayside and is available in independent book form))

God bless!