The irony is that a microcosm of the faltering of the SSPX is seen on CI and the  pharisaism among a large constituency of members.


If the members are sick then so is the head. This is the measure:



Daniel 3:29-32


"For we have sinned, and committed iniquity, departing from thee: and we have trespassed in all things:  And we have not hearkened to thy commandments, nor have we observed nor done as thou hadst commanded us, that it might go well with us.

Wherefore all that thou hast brought upon us, and every thing that thou hast done to us, thou hast done in true judgment:  And thou hast delivered us into the hands of our enemies."



The testimony of the previously posted 1970's exorcism  stands, even if one does not accept it (or should I say, willfully ignores it because of the truth it reveals against traditional elitists!).



Exorcist: In the name...!

Demon Beelzebub: There are numbers of “traditionalists”, as many lay people as priests, who are full of self-righteousness, who are steeped in a kind of new phariseeism. They say, and sometimes they preach: “We are the good ones, we are the just, the rest are not worth much any more. We will go to Heaven.” That is pretty close to the sects: they say the same thing. Those up there (he points upward) do not like this behavior at all.. They do not love men very much who are righteous in their own eyes.

If, in this book, it has been necessary to speak about the Mass and about the Church, and amongst other things, the Mass of Saint Pius V, that does not mean to say that certain “traditionalists” should exalt themselves above the modernists, as if they were the only ones who know how to make a sound judgment, in a suitable way, and with all the necessary competence. That is not what this book is all about. It is simply intended to expose all the abuses in the Church, such as they exist today.

But, to complete the picture, we must still say this: The priests who say: “It is better for you to stay at home rather than go to such Masses”, are making a mistake. If the Mass is degraded to that point where the priest himself no longer believes in the words of the Consecration, and no longer pronounces the words as they should be pronounced, if he no longer has the intention of consecrating, then the host is not consecrated, it is true... but, for all that, people can still pray in the church.

I have to say this also: they are defrauded of Christ and of the fullness of the graces, it is true, but certain graces are still attached to it. Especially when good Christians, of deep faith, go to Mass and Communion full of devotion, with the intention of receiving Christ, then Heaven is fair enough not to say simply: “Because the priest is not doing things properly, there will be no graces here!” Those people nevertheless do receive certain graces.

E: Do these people fulfill their duty to the Lord?

B: If the people have the opportunity of going to a Mass of Saint Pius V, then Heaven prefers that, very much so. But if there is no other possibility, they may go to another Mass. After the Mass of Saint Pius V in Latin, the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular comes in second place, provided that it comprises the totality of the words of the Tridentine Mass as far as this is possible. Only after these, in third place, comes the New Mass. But those people, if they do not know these things and are of good faith, nevertheless fulfill their duty to the Lord, in so far as that is their intention.

On the other hand, if they know very well that a kilometer further away, they would find a Mass of Saint Pius V, and if they say to themselves: “Bah! That, is too far away for me, I am not going to run over there!”; and if they know very well that that would be better, then we have a different situation. Then, they have lost out enormously through negligence. They should have gone that kilometer. Do you know (in a tearful voice) how far we would go, if we were still able to share in such great graces? Ah! We would travel to the ends of the earth, if we still had a chance! We do not wish to imply by this, that the other Masses are as good. We have already said enough about which Mass Those up there prefer (he points upward).

We have to reveal the error which many priests are making. It is a fundamental error to instill into men that they must not go to any New Mass, that it comes from the devil, etc... That also is throwing the baby away with the bath-water, it is going to the opposite extreme. Never does such a condemnation have any place under the mantle of love of neighbor. In these circuмstances there are modernists who have love of neighbor, who are sometimes better than such “traditionalists” who exalt themselves above others. We are obliged to say that as part of this... and everything we have just said about the Sacraments and other subjects...

And it should also be said that there are many “traditionalists” who are Pharisees. Otherwise, the modernists will think that all the “traditionalists” should be lumped together, that (all) the “traditionalists” are fanatics, rebellious fanatics, and will fight them with every means... Now we do not wish to speak any more (he grumbles).

E: In the name of the Blessed Virgin Mary...!

B: This is the way it is: Those up there (he points upward) love all their children, even if they have fallen into error. If, under the cloak of obedience, because they no longer know what they ought to do, they follow the opinions of. the bishops and the priests, then it is hardly their fault. If they act in all good faith, it will not be held to their account so strictly, although these circuмstances are so frightful, frightful, frightful.

Caminus, I've never seen so much trash in one place (outside of a public landfill).

Your "hundred questions" bit was a classic example of "fling enough mud and s*** on the wall and see if any of it sticks".

Pathetic.

If you honestly want to understand the Resistance, please read a thread or two. Learn something.

You sound like an accordista Rip Van Winkle who just woke up after falling asleep in June 2012.

You conveniently ignore everything that doesn't support Bishop Fellay's new position.

Seriously, what rock did you crawl out from under? And what happened to your public debate with Sean Johnson? Oh, but that wouldn't suit you. You don't have facts or solid arguments on your side -- you are more of a  mudslinging and propaganda type.

I get it.

Caminus, I've never seen so much trash in one place (outside of a public landfill).

Your "hundred questions" bit was a classic example of "fling enough mud and s*** on the wall and see if any of it sticks".

Pathetic.

If you honestly want to understand the Resistance, please read a thread or two. Learn something.

You sound like an accordista Rip Van Winkle who just woke up after falling asleep in June 2012.

You conveniently ignore everything that doesn't support Bishop Fellay's new position.

Seriously, what rock did you crawl out from under? And what happened to your public debate with Sean Johnson? Oh, but that wouldn't suit you. You don't have facts or solid arguments on your side -- you are more of a  mudslinging and propaganda type.

I get it.

Is this post for those moments when Caminus checks in to see what's happening on CathInfo?

One there is a deal with Rome would the SSPX still be a part of Traditional Catholicism?. Will there be competition between the FSSP and the SSPX? A couple of years ago when a deal was expected, there was talk in some quarters that the SSPX and the Legionnaires of Christ would be merged. Maybe that is still a possibility. Or maybe the FSSP and the SSPX will be merged together? Will the Opus Dei try and poach priests and faithful from the SSPX?

If and when the SSPX is joined up with Conciliar Rome, it doesn't matter which corner or flavor they settle for. They will no longer be part of Tradition, but part of the betrayal of Tradition. They will be neutralized (if they haven't been already) and recycled. And this is not just my opinion, it was first of all the Archbishop's opinion.

Quote from: Matthew

I get the impression that the SSPX is by far the largest -- such that if the SSPX were to fall, Rome wouldn't have much to worry about. There would just be a scattered remnant here and there. The number of de-facto "home aloners" would skyrocket if the SSPX went out of business tomorrow.

I'm wondering why you believe this?  It is my impression that the vast majority of people who today attend the SSPX will go along with whatever Bishop Fellay tells them, and if he tells them that the SSPX has reconciled with Rome and that is a good thing, they will rejoice and continue as normal.

At the chapel I used to attend, there are not a few families who attend the SSPX some weekends and the archdiocesan FSSP parish other weekends.  Last I knew, most of these would never attend the Novus Ordo, but I do know a couple of families who routinely attend the Novus Ordo when they are traveling and don't have a traditional SSPX or FSSP Mass available.  I've not heard that there is any "Resistance" at the chapel.

To be sure, the Resistance faithful would not attend the Novus Ordo, but how many of them would become "home-aloners" rather than go to the reconciled SSPX or FSSP?  I know I've heard a sermon from one of the Resistance priests telling his congregation not to attend the Neo-SSPX at all, but if they are already staying away from the SSPX, then an SSPX reconciliation probably wouldn't change much within the SSPX community.

I didn't say "if the SSPX sold out" -- I said "if the SSPX went out of business".
That means every SSPX chapel worldwide has a locked door with nothing going on inside.

My point is that the lions' share (over 80 percent?) of "traditional chapels" are affiliated with the SSPX, and if those buildings weren't offering the Mass, then countless Traditional Catholics would be without access to Mass and the sacraments.

Like I said -- the SSPX is big. Real big.

Everyone seems to have missed the point completely.

TKGS isn't "closer to the truth" because we're not talking about the truth! At least I'm not.

I was talking about a hypothetical -- what if the SSPX closed every chapel it owned? What if all SSPX chapels were removed from the board -- what would happen to the average Trad Catholic's Sunday morning experience?

I think 80% of Trad Catholics would be hard-pressed to find a chapel with a Tridentine Mass within a workable driving distance.

My point is that the SSPX selling out is a huge tragedy, because they are such a large % of the world's Tridentine Masses.

Some large cities have other options, but let's put it this way: There are few states that *don't* have an SSPX chapel. Can you say the same about the CMRI?

Whether you go by the numbers, anecdotal evidence, or both -- the truth is that crossing out the SSPX means a lot less potential Masses out there for you.

Of course the way it's going to go is that the SSPX will go the route of the FSSP; they're not going to go out of business. That goes without saying. I was trying to illustrate what a LOSS it is for something to happen to the SSPX.

I guess what comes to mind is the phrase, "Does the Ends justify the Means?"

Weren't there times in Church history where access to the sacraments was extremely limited?  

I know, for me, losing the SSPX would change nothing.  I already have no true masses with undoubtedly true priests less than 150 miles from me.

My point is that the SSPX selling out is a huge tragedy.....

The selling out has already happened.