That's not what Saint Thomas Aquinas says. "Intention" doesn't fix a botched form, what he actually says that if the root word is preserved, it's still valid. (Patris, Patria/Filius, Filia, etc...) Not when you replace a word with a completely different word. Many people have listened to that audio and said that he never said Ministerii, but replaced it with the word Mystery, those associated with Phieffer are the only ones that say he said the correct form "and even if he didn't, the words don't really matter as long as he had the proper intention."
Okay, thank you for correcting me, it seems that you're right on that point - BUT there is a different audio clip, apparently taken with a better microphone (or recording the second redo on the second day) and in that audio clip he does actually say the correct form "ministerii" without any doubt:
https://youtu.be/1FIh-Me_Zjc?list=PLXhRy4ebykbGE02hEL2WQ0rFEr35Bu7vS&t=317 (timestamp 5:17 onwards).
Sadly, this (correct) audio clip has only has 16 views, while the Novus Ordo Watch one has almost 16.000 views. I personally have no stake in this game, I'm not even in America. I just care, is it objectively valid or not, can I list their priests as "Resistance" or are they invalid priests. And that they aren't pedophiles.
I took the defense in the video at face value. Whatever Hewko / Pfeiffer did with Moran earlier may speak about their character, but doesn't concern validity, since they separated from Moran.
Side note: in the video the (doubtful) priest says that in Sacramentum Ordinis, Pius XII says that because the episcopacy contains all the lower orders, an invalid priest can be consecrated to the episcopacy without ordination to the priesthood. That is utterly false and Pius XII never said such a thing.
Yes, that's an error, but the error is only that Pius XII said it (he didn't). The argument in general is that, since episcopacy
is the priesthood, a layman can be consecrated bishop directly (ordination per saltum / with a leap). It would make sense, but I agree it's a weak argument. I'll ignore it for now. There is some historical precedent of layman-to-bishop (Pope St. Fabian, Nectarius of Constantinople), but it's very weak, as usually priesthood and episcopate were conferred subsequently.
But they use it as a justification for the Terrason / Heneberry issue with Webster's priestly orders.
No, that is false. They didn't use it as a "justification", they used it a backup argument, in case the first argument is wrong. Even if the argument "episcopate includes priesthood" argument is false, you'd still have to prove that Bp. Terrasson and Bp. Hennenbery are not bishops - no matter what they did or who they are associated with or if they were ordained by schismatics (so are the Orthodox, yet they produce valid priests).
This is the "line of invalidity" chart of Fr. Chazal:
The error in the chart is that Terrasson was directly consecrated priest
and bishop by Dominguez (not Laborie), only 3 months after the Thuc consecration. So, Laborie simply doesn't belong in the chart. That is what they were talking about.
HOWEVER, there are still 2 problems remaining, before I would greenlight Pfeiffer:
- Did Dominguez use the correct Roman Missal for Terrasson (highly likely as it was only 3 months after his own consecration, but given what he did afterwards there is some doubt)?
- Did Slupski correctly consecrate Webster? There are videos of him online completely botching the Latin, and I mean
completely, way more than Websters slip (but for a different bishop). There's no video of Bp. Websters consecration, so I can't check.
There is still some association to the Palmarian sect due to Dominguez, which isn't good for PR, but wouldn't affect validity. For those reasons, I'll still refrain from seeing Pfeiffer as a real bishop, as I have to be sure.
To the other people: I take it that some people here have personal issues with Bp. Pfeiffer, but it's extremly childish to call people "Pfeiffer apologists", "Hewko cultist", "Fake Resistance", etc. I'm very tired and sick of this constant infighting. I'm doing this in good faith.
Topic: StAnthonyPaduaRadTrad Posts: “In Defense of Bishop? Joseph Pfeiffer (Read 4084 times)