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Is a Resistance priest who refuses to mention St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass a faithful son of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre?

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Author Topic: St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass  (Read 2392 times)

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Offline Philip

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Re: St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 12:11:26 PM »
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  • The link in Reply #10 does not work.
    The algorithms on CathInfo do not like words containing cuм so 'docuмents' in the link got changed.

    Try this: https://www.vatican.va/archive/aas/index_en.htm

    Go to volume 54, 1962, and scroll down to page 873 where you will find the decree.  It is not promulgating an edition of the missal but states that the name of St Joseph is to be inserted in the communicantes of the Canon from December 8th that year.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #16 on: Yesterday at 12:25:04 PM »
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  • From Reply #8:


    The way these two paragraphs are worded might give the impression that Pope Pius XII was involved with "the ACTUAL 62 missal" as someone has called it, which would be unusual (impossible actually), as Pope Pius XII reposed in the Lord on October 9, 1958 and the 1962 missal was promulgated by Pope John XXIII on 23 June, 1962, sometime afterwards.

    The link in Reply #10 does not work. I was able to find this article from Romanitas Press
    https://www.romanitaspress.com/particular-curiosity-of-1962-missal

    It appears that the last rubrical revisions of the new (first and original) 1962 Missal were completed by June 1962, when it was promulgated, and the last textual change, the addition of the name of St. Joseph to the Communicantes, was in November of the SAME Year, but the 1962 Missal (first and original) WAS NOT released for printing until May of 1963. I have consulted several online / downloadable pdf versions of the 1962 Missal, verifying from the title page or introductory pages that each was the ACTUAL and OFFICIAL 1962 Missal, and every single one had the name of St. Joseph in the Communicantes.

    I can find NO information that there has ever been more than ONE edition of the typical edition of the 1962 Roman Missal and every source shows that it included the name of St. Joseph to the Communicantes.  Those who are arguing otherwise have provided NO citations to substantiate their view.  A rational person must conclude that there never was an in-print typical edition of the 1962 Roman Missal which did not have the name of St. Joseph in the Communicantes.
    Wrong.  There are multiple editions of the 62missal.  The first one was published by (finished) by John23.  It was started by Pius XII.  St Joseph was not part of the original missal. 

    A new missal, with changes to the calendar and new feasts, etc takes YEARS to produce.  Pius XII started the process. 


    Offline IndultCat

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    Re: St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #17 on: Yesterday at 04:41:45 PM »
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  • I thought the problem with St. Joseph being in the Canon was that he was not a roman martyr.
    And neither was the Blessed Mother but she is in the Canon. That is why I never saw the big deal with adding St. Joseph to the Canon.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 04:49:59 PM »
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  • The ‘big deal’ is that the canon (which means unchanging) goes back to the 400s, when pope St Gregory the Great created uniform rites for the Latin church, after 300 years of persecution.  

    If you can change something which is 1,600 yrs old, then you can change anything.  Which V2 proved.  The addition of St Joseph was a test.  Most people failed to even grasp the significance.  

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #19 on: Yesterday at 09:37:49 PM »
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  • The ‘big deal’ is that the canon (which means unchanging) goes back to the 400s, when pope St Gregory the Great created uniform rites for the Latin church, after 300 years of persecution. 
    The Canon included long lists of local saints -- many being non-martyrs -- in several local usages of the Roman Rite. These local variations obtained for centuries.

    Objecting to the name of St. Joseph from the angle therefore does not work.

    I am uneasy about the inclusion of the name of our Lord's putative father in the Canon, but am still unsure what is the best argument for reject its use.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #20 on: Yesterday at 10:18:19 PM »
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  • The Canon included long lists of local saints -- many being non-martyrs -- in several local usages of the Roman Rite. These local variations obtained for centuries.

    Objecting to the name of St. Joseph from the angle therefore does not work.
    Right, but these were additions to what St Gregory the Great started way back when.  And the canon was reaffirmed by Pope St Pius V in Quo Primum, never to change again.

    Quote
    I am uneasy about the inclusion of the name of our Lord's putative father in the Canon, but am still unsure what is the best argument for reject its use.
    Quo Primum is the best argument.  The original 62 missal was in alignment with Quo Primum.  The revisions, which began due to John23, started the slow decaying of QP and are illicit.

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 11:29:48 PM »
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  • And neither was the Blessed Mother but she is in the Canon. That is why I never saw the big deal with adding St. Joseph to the Canon.

    The Blessed Mother is way above any other saint, as great as St. Joseph is. She is above the martyrs too, by a long shot. She does not belong to the same category as any other saint, that's why she always has a special place in the liturgical texts.

    The cult of St. Joseph is a much later development, but Our Lady was always mentioned, even when just the martys were considered saints. 


    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #22 on: Yesterday at 11:34:05 PM »
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  • So long as the SSPX priest is mainly concerned with being a faithful son of OurLord Jesus Christ, whether he mentions St. Joseph in the Canon is not of supreme importance. It wouldn’t bother me one way or the other in terms of whether the Mass gives grace. (Let’s assume the priest is validly ordained.) Most SSPX priests say the second Confiteor before Communion and that is not in the 1962 Missal. I’ve never heard a protest about this. What would Archbishop LeFebvre say if he could return and hold a general conference?  I think he might return to the pre-1955 Mass and specifically, the traditional Holy Week. Beyond that, he’d have a very serious meeting with the original Bishops, the Bishops consecrated by Bp. Williamson, and bring Bps. Tissier and Williamson back with him!  
    Of course, this cannot happen. So I’d rather concentrate on maintains the whole of the Faith, with or without hearing St. Joseph mentioned in the Canon or the second Confiteor. Agree with his stance on certain issues, all traditional Catholics owe a debt of gratitude to Archbishop LeFebvre for founding the SSPX, and to Our Lord for blessing it as he did to awaken so many souls who’d be otherwise lost to the V2 religion. 


    Offline moneil

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    Re: St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #23 on: Today at 01:23:41 AM »
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  • Wrong.  There are multiple editions of the 62missal.  The first one was published by (finished) by John23.  It was started by Pius XII.  St Joseph was not part of the original missal. 

    A new missal, with changes to the calendar and new feasts, etc takes YEARS to produce.  Pius XII started the process.
    With due respect sir, you are wrong. There is only ONE edition of the 1962 missal, which I've docuмented. Pope Pius XII had NO involvement with the 1962 Missal. He made changes to the text and rubrics of the Missal of Pope Benedict XV (1920), sometimes referred to as the Pio-Benedictine Missal as it codified revisions made by Pope St. Pius X. The 1920 Missal was the latest official version before the 1962 Missal of Pope John XXIII. While he did not issue a new typical edition of the Roman Missal, Pope Pius had new Holy Week Liturgies inserted into the 1920 Missal. He also allowed evening Masses (previously Mass typically was only celebrated between dawn and noon, except for the First Mass of Christmas at Midnight) and substantially reduced the Eucharistic Fast.

    Pope John XXIII became the supreme pontiff on October 28, 1958. In 1960 he authorized changes to the rubrics (simplifications mostly, including removing the third Confiteor*) to the Pio-Benedictine Missal of 1920. I was an altar server then and remember some of this. In 1962 he issued a NEW typical edition of the Roman Missal, first since the Pio-Benedictine Missal of 1920, referred to as the 1962 Missal. It includes the new simplified rubrics, the Holy Week Liturgy of Pius XII, and the inclusion of St. Joseph in the Communicantes. The 1962 typical edition of the Roman Missal did not exist before 1962, and there were no revisions after 1962. Beginning about 1964 there were "interim missals" based on the 1962, but these have never been considered revisions of the 1962, but preludes to the 1969 Missal of Pope Paul VI.

    There are numerous PDF versions of the typical edition of the 1962 Missal available to download. Please show us one that is truly the 1962 Missal verified by its title page where St. Joseph is not in the Communicantes, I doubt you can.

    As a sidebar: I put an asterisk next to "removing the third Confiteor" above as that sometimes has been as contentious an issue as the change made to the Communicantes in the Canon. Interestingly, at every diocesan sponsored 1962 Missal Mass I've ever been to, including the High Mass I routinely attend in Sprague, Washington, the third Confiteor is always included.



    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #24 on: Today at 08:23:16 AM »
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  • Quote
    there were no revisions after 1962.
    Wrong.  This thread already has information on 2 different publications in the same year of 62.  Your argument is not with me, but with history.