And you swing to extremes. The "new" Mass does not compare to a black Mass or a supermarket Mass.

No, it does not compare.  That's not the point i'm making.  I'm pointing out the flaw in your "validity is all that matters" argument, by going to an extreme case.  If validity is all that matters (it isn't), then a black/supermarket mass is holy, pleasing and glorifying to God.  Obviously, this is a wrong conclusion.  Which means that VALIDITY IS NOT THE ONLY CRITERIA TO USE in deciding whether a mass is holy, pleasing and glorifying.  That's the point.

You claim the new Mass is not valid

How many times do I have to say this isn't my argument?  The argument is that the new mass/V2 church is DOUBTFUL.  If you can't get my argument right, then we can't have a discussion.

Yes, I'm a legalist; I need guide-lines for my understanding. And as the Church teaches that that the Church is Christ, the eternal fountain of grace, your claim that this eternal fountain of grace dried up around 1969, does not tally with this teaching. Nor does it tally with all the verified Eucharistic Miracles since 1969, or all the pius and good-living Novus Order Catholics around the world who live more Godly lives than many traditionalists. They are getting grace, make no mistake. It is understanding that they are missing.

Ok, but the Orthodox heretics also have valid sacraments.  Can an Orthodox heretic make it heaven...without rejecting his heresy?  (correct answer = 'no').

And this is the core defect of the "new" Mass. Having been stripped back from its former glory it not longer focuses on the sacrificial Crucifixion of our Saviour but rather focuses on the last supper.

Right, which is why Ottaviani said it's anti-Trent.  How can something be anti-Trent (i.e. anti-doctrine) and still be catholic?  Can the Holy Ghost contradict Himself?

Which is why, although Archbishop Lefebvre did not hesitate to speak publicly on the question of the orthodoxy and validity of Paul VI’s Mass, and  considered that “one cannot say generally that the New Mass is invalid or heretical” he did believe, like Ottaviani, that Pope Paul's Mass "leads slowly to heresy” where “Protestant ideas concerning the Supper would be unconsciously accepted by the Catholics.” - Ref: https://sspx.org/en/what-archbishop-lefebvre-said-about-new-mass-30166

But we can say generally that the new mass is doubtful.  Which is what Ottaviani said.

How a Pope can promote such a Mass is a mystery we will never fully understand until the next life. What Fr. Wrath does make clear though is that "in issuing the New Mass” Pope Paul VI did not make an “ex cathedra” definition." (yes, I have started reading his book as Stubborn and yourself suggested), and that Popes can err while while maintaining their office and authority.

Well, if the pope wasn't infallible when he issued the new mass (and he wasn't), then you are correct that he can err.

A.  The pope was not infallible when he issued the new mass.
B.  Non-infallible acts are not protected by the Holy Ghost, but are human actions.
C.  Non-infallible acts are able to err and be deficient.
D.  The new mass is not infallible, nor doctrinal, but is deficient.  It is a human creation, subject to error.
E.  Thus, V2 and the new mass are NOT FROM GOD, but from human beings.
F.  This is why they are ABLE TO BE deficient, ABLE to be quasi-protestant, ABLE to be quasi-heretical.  Because humans can err and sin.

This brings us back to why I am "hyper-fixed" on highlighting validity. You claim the new Mass is not valid and therefore the Church  - the visible Vatican Church in Rome that Christ founded - is no longer the Church. I stress the opposite.

I don't say the new mass is invalid, but doubtful.  It's also quasi-heretical and contradictory with prior councils and papal decrees.  This is possible because IT IS NOT INFALLIBLE and it is the work of HUMANS, not the Holy Ghost.

The visible Vatican Church in Rome that Christ founded, and invested in for over 2000 years, IS still the Church as promised by Christ and therefore, the Mass and the Sacraments (the eternal divine deposit) must still be valid.

Only the True Rites of the Church (i.e. those that follow Quo Primum) are part of the divine deposit, and only these are protected by the Holy Ghost.  V2/new mass are human works, and not infallible.


The Church is still the Church.  But the V2 church is a new thing, which exists in parallel with the True Church, in Rome.  As Our Lady of LaSallette explained this mystery:  "The Church will be in eclipse."  The V2 church has hidden the True Church and "eclipsed" it (for a time).