Catholic Info

Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: Mr G on March 25, 2023, 07:20:51 AM

Title: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Mr G on March 25, 2023, 07:20:51 AM

NOTE from Non Possumus:

Non Possumus: CONSECRATION OF NEW BISHOPS IN THE NEO-SSPX (nonpossumus-vcr.blogspot.com) (http://nonpossumus-vcr.blogspot.com/2023/03/consagracion-de-nuevos-obispos-en-la.html)

A reliable source informs us that the Neo-SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year.

If these consecrations are carried out with the permission of liberal, modernist and apostate Rome, or if the new bishops belong to the accordist side; the Fraternity will take a great step towards the abyss.

Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: ElwinRansom1970 on March 25, 2023, 07:32:26 AM
The possibility of SSPX bishops that was realused in 1988 was spoken about openly beginning in 1986 and with certainty from 1987.

Where is the public discussion of new bishops for the Neo-SSPX?





Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Ladislaus on March 25, 2023, 08:22:28 AM
Highly unlikely unless Bergoglio is on board and has pre-selected the candidates.

Bishop Paul Robinson
Bishop Francois Laisney
Bishop Gregoire Celier

We should have a CathInfo pool about which Modernists will be the bishops … if the rumor is true.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Matthew on March 25, 2023, 10:04:38 AM
Highly unlikely unless Bergoglio is on board and has pre-selected the candidates.

Bishop Paul Robinson
Bishop Francois Laisney
Bishop Gregoire Celier

We should have a CathInfo pool about which Modernists will be the bishops … if the rumor is true.

Before I say anything, I must be crystal clear.

There's "consecrating bishops" and then there's "consecrating bishops".

The chance of the neo-SSPX consecrating more bishops +ABL-style, as a Crisis/wartime measure to protect Tradition, against the wishes of Rome, being willing to take any PR damage, "excommunications", and other name calling? Approximately ZERO.

The same chance as George Soros, Klaus Schwab, Biden, Clinton, Bush, Gates, or Bergoglio having a miraculous St. Paul/St. Augustine style conversion to the True Faith and service of God. Technically possible (with God anything is possible), but AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

How many countries, having apostatized from the Faith, have converted back to it without any suffering or bƖσσdshɛd? Currently we're at ZERO. Same for an organization like the SSPX. They aren't just going to come back. A huge portion of the priests are compromised and corrupted. And it happens to be 100% of those in leadership positions, so... that ship is as sunk as the souls of the bad guys I listed above, barring a LITERAL MIRACLE OF GRACE from God.

Now consecrating a modernist/accordist bishop or 3 with the permission of Rome? That's a completely different animal.

But remember, the SSPX came out against the recent Resistance consecrations, which were in every way equivalent to the 1988 +ABL consecrations. So they can't go THAT route without being a complete 2-faced hypocrite with zero credibility.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Ladislaus on March 25, 2023, 10:37:53 AM
Now consecrating a modernist/accordist bishop or 3 with the permission of Rome? That's a completely different animal.

Yes, this is where I was going also.  They would have 3 candidates pre-cleared by Rome.  They may even insist that only NO bishops would be the consecrators, casting doubt about their validity out there as well.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Ladislaus on March 25, 2023, 10:40:26 AM
But remember, the SSPX came out against the recent Resistance consecrations, which were in every way equivalent to the 1988 +ABL consecrations. So they can't go THAT route without being a complete 2-faced hypocrite with zero credibility.

I don't think that this by itself would stop them.  They'll roll out their neo-SSPX apologists in full force to explain why THEIR consecrations were "different".

I think that their biggest reservation is that it would scuttle their relationship with Rome and any hope of a regularization.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: TKGS on March 25, 2023, 10:58:53 AM
Yes, this is where I was going also.  They would have 3 candidates pre-cleared by Rome.  They may even insist that only NO bishops would be the consecrators, casting doubt about their validity out there as well.
Or would they follow the dictates of the current Vatican and consecrate using the new rite of consecration in Latin so that most of the lay-faithful wouldn't really know if they used a valid rite or not?
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SimpleMan on March 25, 2023, 11:38:33 AM
I could be wrong, but I don't see this happening anytime soon (i.e., not while the three SSPX bishops are in reasonably good health, and Fellay is not eaten up with old age by any stretch of the imagination), unless Rome would absolutely refuse to allow any new priests to offer the TLM.  That would constitute all the "emergency" that you need.

Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Kazimierz on March 25, 2023, 11:38:43 AM
Highly unlikely unless Bergoglio is on board and has pre-selected the candidates.

Bishop Paul Robinson
Bishop Francois Laisney
Bishop Gregoire Celier

We should have a CathInfo pool about which Modernists will be the bishops … if the rumor is true.
Your choices seem the safest bet Lad.

"When shall these three meet again? When the apostasy is true and strong, when the neosspx is finally done and done! There to meet with Frank-in-stein upon the Pallatine......"
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Matthew on March 25, 2023, 11:47:12 AM
I don't think that this by itself would stop them.  They'll roll out their neo-SSPX apologists in full force to explain why THEIR consecrations were "different".

I think that their biggest reservation is that it would scuttle their relationship with Rome and any hope of a regularization.

The more you think about it, the more impossible this becomes.

Let's put it this way: they've been training their Faithful and their priests/seminarians for the past 20 years that we need permission from Rome, that we're in danger of becoming Old Catholics or Orthodox, that the Resistance is bad, +ABL was bad, the Conciliar bishops are good guys, etc. In other words, their own actions for the past X years will work against bringing the Faithful along with any about-face turn. That's the problem with about-faces! Even if a PERSON is able to flip-flop, when you're dragging thousands or millions of followers along, it's more difficult to get them all to forget what you've said for the past X years.

Those Catholics who basically ignore the SSPX anyhow (but merely attend their Masses, while staying as aloof as possible) would be the least affected. As in "SSPX: Nevermind. Aloof parishioner: I never do (I always ignore you by default)."
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Mithrandylan on March 25, 2023, 11:49:37 AM
Is non-possumus a reliable source? What is their track record on predictions and forecasts?
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Meg on March 25, 2023, 12:23:55 PM
Highly unlikely unless Bergoglio is on board and has pre-selected the candidates.

Bishop Paul Robinson
Bishop Francois Laisney
Bishop Gregoire Celier

We should have a CathInfo pool about which Modernists will be the bishops … if the rumor is true.

That's a good idea!

I don't think that the SSPX would consecrate any new bishops without Rome's approval. They wouldn't want to risk the wrath of Francis (who seems to like the SSPX), or the possibility of excommunication. The SSPX probably doesn't like the fact that the Resistance has more bishops, and that the Resistance is growing - slowly but surely.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on March 25, 2023, 02:30:26 PM
I had heard this news privately, and began formulating an outline in preparation for an article/analysis, but with too many projects on my desk, abandoned it as just another distraction.  Nevertheless, here are some ideas I would have developed (however, as CI does not allow numbers and/or bulletpoints, the formatting is very jumbled):





Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SimpleMan on March 25, 2023, 11:11:56 PM
I'm getting kind of lost here.  Somebody educate me.

Are some thinking that Francis will, indeed, give the go-ahead to consecrate three new bishops, thereby granting the SSPX a de facto reconciliation, and basically "looking the other way" and disregarding his own TC?

I've said this before, but I have a pet theory that his long-term goal is to drive the TLM out of the dioceses, leave the SSPX more or less alone, and effect some kind of merger between the SSPX and the FSSP (and possibly drawing in other groups such as the ICSSR), creating a separate "church within a church" for TLM adherents.  I'm also thinking that such a "merger" could entail forcing the FSSP to give up the TLM, making them into an Adoremus-type fraternity, and that the priests who object to that would slide on over to the SSPX, and possibly be more or less encouraged to.

Has Francis given any indications whatsoever that he intends to withdraw the various faculties he has given the SSPX, and to tell them "either give up the TLM and 'return to the Church' [sic], or I'll eventually have to excommunicate you, a fortiori if you consecrate new bishops"?  Or something like that.

Somewhat related, do we know what is in the works for the St Jean Vianney group in Campos under Bishop Rifan?  We don't hear much about them anymore.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Maria Auxiliadora on March 26, 2023, 05:19:13 AM

It Is time to revisit the articles on this thread, it will make more sense now. If this is the time for the SSPX Prelature, which I doubt not, the consecration of more bishops ratified by Rome, makes perfect sense. These bishops would do the ordinations and the three bishops consecrated by ABL, would only administer the other sacraments.   

The SSPX has a great influx now of panicking conservatives from indult communities. A few months ago we stopped at the SSPX chapel in Syracuse, NY while traveling and were told by a parishioner that the local bishop that "given" them a big church and that the priests were currently in talks with him. 

https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/a-step-for-the-regularization-of-the-sspx-dissolution-of-ecclesia-dei/

This letter may also be of interest to review the "6 propositions":

http://saintspeterandpaulrcm.com/OPEN%20LETTERS/McCall,Brian_Reply_Justice_Comments_10-13-12.htm
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on March 26, 2023, 06:27:45 AM
I'm getting kind of lost here.  Somebody educate me.

Are some thinking that Francis will, indeed, give the go-ahead to consecrate three new bishops, thereby granting the SSPX a de facto reconciliation, and basically "looking the other way" and disregarding his own TC?

I've said this before, but I have a pet theory that his long-term goal is to drive the TLM out of the dioceses, leave the SSPX more or less alone, and effect some kind of merger between the SSPX and the FSSP (and possibly drawing in other groups such as the ICSSR), creating a separate "church within a church" for TLM adherents.  I'm also thinking that such a "merger" could entail forcing the FSSP to give up the TLM, making them into an Adoremus-type fraternity, and that the priests who object to that would slide on over to the SSPX, and possibly be more or less encouraged to.

Has Francis given any indications whatsoever that he intends to withdraw the various faculties he has given the SSPX, and to tell them "either give up the TLM and 'return to the Church' [sic], or I'll eventually have to excommunicate you, a fortiori if you consecrate new bishops"?  Or something like that.

Somewhat related, do we know what is in the works for the St Jean Vianney group in Campos under Bishop Rifan?  We don't hear much about them anymore.

I’ve been saying for 20 years that Rome has been misplaying his cards; that if they were smart, they’d simply offer the SSPX whatever they wanted, with no strings attached, since all that Fr. Cottier said would still apply:

”Reconciliation Carrie’s within itself it’s own internal dynamism (ie., self-censorship, since one fears to lose what one has finally gained)…what is important is that there no longer be rejection (of conciliarism) in their hearts…we must be patient…gradually, we must expect further steps…”

Of course, today (and really, since at least since the commencement of the branding campaign), there are countless strings attached, which are all to Rome’s advantage (and even if there weren’t, Cottier’s observations would still guarantee the modernist victory.

Of course Bergoglio would not let this cat out of the bag prematurely/publicly, which would be a tactical error (ie., it would give people like me time to sound the alarm).  Better for him to make the Society wait to announce the consecrations until closer to the day, where it is practically a fait accompli, to avoid as much opposition as possible (which will all be drowned out by a barrage of premeditated articles and vids in support).
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Seraphina on March 26, 2023, 10:09:59 AM
I’ll believe it when I see it.  If they do consecrate, I suspect it’ll be from among those with modernist leanings.  
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on March 26, 2023, 10:33:37 AM
I’ll believe it when I see it.  If they do consecrate, I suspect it’ll be from among those with modernist leanings. 

That’s a given, because on the one hand, why would anticatholic Rome consecrate enemies (ie., real anti conciliar traditionalists)?  And on the other hand, with all resistants having been purged from the ranks, what else is there to choose from?
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: HeavyHanded on March 26, 2023, 07:15:00 PM
It Is time to revisit the articles on this thread, it will make more sense now. If this is the time for the SSPX Prelature, which I doubt not, the consecration of more bishops ratified by Rome, makes perfect sense. These bishops would do the ordinations and the three bishops consecrated by ABL, would only administer the other sacraments.   

The SSPX has a great influx now of panicking conservatives from indult communities. A few months ago we stopped at the SSPX chapel in Syracuse, NY while traveling and were told by a parishioner that the local bishop that "given" them a big church and that the priests were currently in talks with him.

https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/a-step-for-the-regularization-of-the-sspx-dissolution-of-ecclesia-dei/

This letter may also be of interest to review the "6 propositions":

http://saintspeterandpaulrcm.com/OPEN%20LETTERS/McCall,Brian_Reply_Justice_Comments_10-13-12.htm
I was just in Syracuse two weeks ago for Confirmation. While I think the local Bishop is friendly to the SSPX (the Confirmation ceremony and Mass were at a Diocesan church) the other Bishops in the area must have talked him out of selling the SSPX a church. They will probably sell it to some protestants or muslims instead.  
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Soubirous on March 26, 2023, 07:25:11 PM
I was just in Syracuse two weeks ago for Confirmation. While I think the local Bishop is friendly to the SSPX (the Confirmation ceremony and Mass were at a Diocesan church) the other Bishops in the area must have talked him out of selling the SSPX a church. They will probably sell it to some protestants or muslims instead. 
Didn't the Syracuse chapel relocate out to their nearby priory and school?
https://sspx.org/en/blessed-virgin-mary-church-priory (https://sspx.org/en/blessed-virgin-mary-church-priory)

Quote
Welcome to the Blessed Virgin Mary Church and Priory located in the Syracuse, New York area. Previously, the chapel was in Syracuse, and the Academy in Warners - now both are in Warners.

Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Pax Vobis on March 26, 2023, 07:49:39 PM
Quote
the Confirmation ceremony and Mass were at a Diocesan church
What a shame.  To celebrate the sacraments in a church that regularly blasphemes Our Lord.  What a mockery. 


I think it was Fr Wathen who said that any church where sacrileges were committed must be re-consecrated by a bishop to renew its holiness before the Lord.  Certainly anywhere that the new mass abomination is regularly said qualifies as a desecrated place.  Yet the new-sspx walks right in like there’s no problem…:facepalm:
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: HeavyHanded on March 26, 2023, 08:27:31 PM
What a shame.  To celebrate the sacraments in a church that regularly blasphemes Our Lord.  What a mockery. 


I think it was Fr Wathen who said that any church where sacrileges were committed must be re-consecrated by a bishop to renew its holiness before the Lord.  Certainly anywhere that the new mass abomination is regularly said qualifies as a desecrated place.  Yet the new-sspx walks right in like there’s no problem…:facepalm:
“Walks in like there’s no problem”. Oh you were there? Please tell us exactly how everything happened. What were they supposed to do? Their chapel isn’t even big enough for Sunday Mass. they have an altar set up in the gymnasium of the school. The ceremony was at Transfiguration Church , a big, beautiful old church that hasn’t changed since it was built. They majority of the masses offered there at TLM. 
I just converted last year, but I just don’t understand this foaming at the mouth hatred of the SSPX. 60 years of church crisis, and maybe they have wavered a bit but what do you want? Everything perfect and easy for you? 
how about some charity? 

Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: St Giles on March 26, 2023, 09:00:44 PM
how about some charity?
And prayers. Who's praying all 15 decades each day like Bishop Williamson says to, raise of hands?

I'm not quite there yet :facepalm:
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Bellato on March 26, 2023, 09:20:29 PM
Is non-possumus a reliable source? What is their track record on predictions and forecasts?
That's really the only important point to all of this.  Is this true or not?   If it's not true, then there is no point discussing a non-event.   
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Geremia on March 26, 2023, 09:57:44 PM
Who are the "papabili"?
They should try to find some young ones (canonically, they have to be ≥30 yrs old)


For comparison, ages when consecrated in 1988:


source: Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Marcel Lefebvre: The Biography (https://isidore.co/calibre/#panel=book_details&book_id=7743)
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Incredulous on March 26, 2023, 10:10:59 PM
“Walks in like there’s no problem”. Oh you were there? Please tell us exactly how everything happened. What were they supposed to do? Their chapel isn’t even big enough for Sunday Mass. they have an altar set up in the gymnasium of the school. The ceremony was at Transfiguration Church , a big, beautiful old church that hasn’t changed since it was built. They majority of the masses offered there at TLM.
I just converted last year, but I just don’t understand this foaming at the mouth hatred of the SSPX. 60 years of church crisis, and maybe they have wavered a bit but what do you want? Everything perfect and easy for you?
how about some charity?
Heavy,

Many of the members here, are loyal, long-term SSPX members who were cast out by the neo-SSPX.
Accused of being "nαzιs" αnтι-ѕємιтєs and old fuddy-duddies, we have followed Bp. Fellay's betrayals and travails for years. 

If you go to the SSPX Resistance archives on this forum, you can find many of the issues that have brought us to our current posture against the SSPX.

On the issue of a chapel sacrilege, there is a cogent argument that the Novus ordo missae is a "Great Sacrilege", as explained by Father James Wathen in his1971 book.

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.virgosacrata.com%2Fwp%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F07%2Fgreat-sacrilege.png&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=f923045c2b7588596f1256c14c8f584c59332573602c10fab0eb59eb5895e6a2&ipo=images)

This American priest was way ahead of the curve, way ahead of +ABL in realizing the desacralization of the Mass.
It was after-the-fact, that we find out, the jew-pope, Paul VI and Bugnini, inserted an ejaculation from the Kabbalah into the fake mass liturgy.

Those who realize this, make no compromise.
We are not "nice guys" even to Bishop Williamson, who speaks of Novus ordo missae graces.
 Or any Consiliar bishop involved in this great schism.

So please... don't use the word "charity" with us.  

Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Pax Vobis on March 26, 2023, 10:36:00 PM
Quote
“Walks in like there’s no problem”. Oh you were there? Please tell us exactly how everything happened. What were they supposed to do? Their chapel isn’t even big enough for Sunday Mass. they have an altar set up in the gymnasium of the school. The ceremony was at Transfiguration Church , a big, beautiful old church that hasn’t changed since it was built. They majority of the masses offered there at TLM.
Maybe the new-sspx shouldn't spend millions of dollars on a new seminary and instead, build on to the chapel in NY, which sounds quite small.  But the sspx has always made odd real estate decisions.

Quote
I just converted last year, but I just don’t understand this foaming at the mouth hatred of the SSPX. 60 years of church crisis, and maybe they have wavered a bit but what do you want? Everything perfect and easy for you?
how about some charity?
You should read Sean Johnson's book about the 100+ ways that the new-sspx has changed, just in the span of 10 years.  The sspx of old would've never had anything to do with the diocese or their churches (no matter how big or beautiful they are) because new-rome and all those in the dioceses around the world promote quasi-heresies, doctrinal relativism and liturgical revolution.  These people in the diocese agree with new-rome, V2 and the new mass...and are enemies of the True Church (whether they realize it or not).  The sspx (and all of tradition) ORIGINALLY existed because the dioceses are not 100% catholic and a danger to salvation.

We should pray for all those who are part of new-rome and dioceses and the indult.  They need to convert and wake up.  New-rome has not changed; they are still Modernist and they are getting more and more new-agey and antichrist every day.  The new-sspx acts like the war is over.  They are acting like an indult community instead of a Traditional community.  True charity is pointing out truths of this change.  I hope you spend time to educate yourself.  God bless.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Matthew on March 27, 2023, 04:00:25 AM
It's not about how old or beautiful the church building is. The question is: IS IT A DUAL-USE OR SHARED FACILITY?
Is it a building that offers BOTH the Tridentine AND Novus Ordo Masses?

Because there are only two options, and both are a non-starter:

Option 1: The Novus Ordo Mass is valid.
Ok, so due to the widespread abuse of Communion in the Hand, you have Sacred Particles all over the floor. So unless the *cleaning crew* has been in the chapel before your Tridentine Mass, then these Latin Mass Indulterers are literally treading on Our Lord during their beautiful "Latin Mass".

Option 2: The Novus Ordo Mass is invalid.
Ok, so heaven help you if the priest distributes Novus Ordo cookies "consecrated" at a previous "mass" during Communion at your Latin Mass. Oh, and you must make a good show of NOT genuflecting in the church until after the Consecration at your TLM. That's a great way to raise your kids Catholic -- don't genuflect in the Church! As they say, the Faith is a habit of life.

And in either case, you have yourself (and your children) immersed in the Conciliar Milieu -- modern art, statues, architecture, banners, flyers, signage, TABLE RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF THE ALTAR, you name it. You might think it won't affect you, but it WILL affect your children.

So you see the conundrum? Shared facilities are a NO-GO for Traditional Catholics. Better a rented facility, but even better yet ANY KIND of permanent facility: basement, living room, spare bedroom, garage, attic, warehouse, small trailer, etc.

THEREFORE I distinguish between the Indult which is offered at a dedicated facility (Institute of Christ the King has many of these, as well as the FSSP), and Indult Masses which are said at shared facilities.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: trento on March 27, 2023, 04:21:21 AM
That's really the only important point to all of this.  Is this true or not?  If it's not true, then there is no point discussing a non-event. 

This.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Matthew on March 27, 2023, 04:31:15 AM
That's really the only important point to all of this.  Is this true or not?  If it's not true, then there is no point discussing a non-event. 

Put me down for "it's BS". I'll believe it when I see it.

If it does happen, the Consecrands will be Modernist to varying degrees. There is zero chance you're going to end up with more great Traditional bishops like +ABL or +Williamson consecrated. Not going to happen. To get good bishops when the Church is taken over, you have to do it without the permission of occupied Rome. And the neo-SSPX has made it abundantly clear they don't work that way anymore.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: St Giles on March 27, 2023, 10:48:44 AM
Heavy,

Many of the members here, are loyal, long-term SSPX members who were cast out by the neo-SSPX.
Accused of being "nαzιs" αnтι-ѕємιтєs and old fuddy-duddies, we have followed Bp. Fellay's betrayals and travails for years. 

If you go to the SSPX Resistance archives on this forum, you can find many of the issues that have brought us to our current posture against the SSPX.

On the issue of a chapel sacrilege, there is a cogent argument that the Novus ordo missae is a "Great Sacrilege", as explained by Father James Wathen in his1971 book.

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.virgosacrata.com%2Fwp%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F07%2Fgreat-sacrilege.png&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=f923045c2b7588596f1256c14c8f584c59332573602c10fab0eb59eb5895e6a2&ipo=images)

This American priest was way ahead of the curve, way ahead of +ABL in realizing the desacralization of the Mass.
It was after-the-fact, that we find out, the Jєω-pope, Paul VI and Bugnini, inserted an ejaculation from the Kabbalah into the fake mass liturgy.

Those who realize this, make no compromise.
We are not "nice guys" even to Bishop Williamson, who speaks of Novus ordo missae graces.
 Or any Consiliar bishop involved in this great schism.

So please... don't use the word "charity" with us. 
Wow, it's a pricey book. How many pages?
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Gloria Tibi Domine on March 27, 2023, 10:50:04 AM
  The novus ordo liturgy isn't Catholic. That means it's not "real". A real pope can't promulgate a catholic but flawed liturgy, sacraments, nor make statements in his capacity as pope that teach anything opposed to what the Catholic Church has always handed down- which is known as tradition. In Syracuse they should have never gone to the building used by the diocese. 

A link and short excerpt regarding "problems" with the novus ordo sham.

“The Post-Conciliar Rite of Holy Orders” - an essay by Rama P. Coomaraswamy (studiesincomparativereligion.com) (http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/The_Post-Conciliar_Rite_of_Holy_Orders-by_Rama_P_Coomaraswamy.aspx#_ftn1)


By the middle of the 17th century, both as a result of printing and the increase in international travel, scholars became familiar with the ordination rites in use throughout the world. In 1665, Jean Moran, a French Roman Catholic theologian, published a work in which he set out a large collection of ordination rites of both the Eastern and Western Churches. Following the principle that the matter and form must be something which was held in common by all these valid rites, he concluded that for matter what was required was the imposition of hands,[19] (http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/The_Post-Conciliar_Rite_of_Holy_Orders-by_Rama_P_Coomaraswamy.aspx#_ftn19) and that all the forms agreed in requiring that the office conferred must be specified. To quote him directly:

Quote
Let Protestants search all Catholic rituals not only of the West, but of the East; they will not find any one form of consecrating bishops (or priests), that hath not the word bishop (or priest) in it, or some others expressing the particular authority, the power of a bishop (or priest) distinct from all other degrees of holy orders.
This of course was a private opinion and theologians continued to debate as to whether it was sufficient that the office conferred be mentioned in the other parts of the rite—the so-called principle of “significatio ex adjunctis.” Further, as already mentioned, Protestant sects who had in earlier times avoided the word “priest” like the plague, began to reintroduce the word “priest” within the context of their rites—understanding by the term “priest,” not a “sacrificing priest,” but an individual elected by the community to preach the Word of God. In a similar manner they reintroduced the term “bishop”—but understood in a purely juridical or administrative sense and often translated as “overseer.” This particular issue—namely, the need to mention the office of the ordinand within the “form”—was seemingly settled by Leo XIII’s Apostolicae curae, which criticized the Anglican form prior to 1662 for lacking this specification, and criticized the Anglican form after 1662 for using the terms priest and bishop in other than the Catholic sense.
The Definition of Pius XII
As a result of the work of Jean Moran, Catholic theologians shifted the grounds of their objection to Protestant ordination rites. Two things became clear: 1) the fact that they had no “tradition of the instruments” could no longer be said to invalidate them; and 2) the prayer, “Accept the Holy Ghost,” which the Anglicans used in their Episcopal ordinations and which they claimed transferred the sacramental power, was not universally used, and hence could not be said to constitute an essential part of the rite. Debate on the issue of the “form” continued until 1947 when Pius XII determined for all future times just what the matter and the form for the sacrament of Orders was.
His definition is to be found in the Decree Sacramentum Ordinis,[20] (http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/The_Post-Conciliar_Rite_of_Holy_Orders-by_Rama_P_Coomaraswamy.aspx#_ftn20) which docuмent has, according to such renowned theologians as J.M. Hervé and Felix Capello, all the characteristics of an infallible definition.[21] (http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/The_Post-Conciliar_Rite_of_Holy_Orders-by_Rama_P_Coomaraswamy.aspx#_ftn21) According to Fr. Bligh, “its purpose was not speculative…but practical.” The rite itself was in no way changed, and, indeed, Pius XII insisted that it should not be. His aim was “to put an end to scruples about the validity of Orders received by priests who felt that some possibly essential part of the long and complicated rite had not been properly performed in their cases.” For the future it intended “to remove all disputes and controversy: the character, Graces, and powers of the sacrament are all conferred simultaneously by the imposition of hands and the words Da, quaesumus.… The other ceremonies—the vesting, anointing, tradition of instruments, and second imposition of hands—do not effect what they signify; they signify in detail what has already been effected by the matter and the form.”
Form And Essential Words For Ordaining Priests
(PIUS XII)
Pius XII stated that “the form consists of the words of the Preface, of which these are essential and required for validity”: “Da, quaesumus, omnipotens Pater, in hos famulos tuos presbyterii dignitatem. Innova in visceribus eorum spiritum sanctitatis, ut acceptum a te, Deus, secundi meriti munus obtineant; censuramque morum exemplo suae conversationis insinuent” (Grant, we beseech Thee, Almighty Father, to these Thy servants, the dignity of the priesthood; renew the spirit of holiness within them so that they may obtain the office of the second rank received from Thee, O God, and may, by the example of their lives inculcate the pattern of holy living).
Similarly, in the ordination  of bishops, the same infallible docuмent states that “the form consists of the words of the Preface of which the following are essential and therefore necessary for validity”: “Comple in sacerdote tuo ministerii tui summum, et ornamentis totius glorificationis instructum coelestis unguenti rore sanctific” (Fill up in Thy priest the perfection [summum can also be translated “fullness”] of Thy ministry and sanctify him with the dew of Thy heavenly ointment, this thy servant decked out with the ornaments of all beauty).
It should be stressed that Pius XII in no way changed the rite—indeed, he stressed that the rite was to remain intact. At the end of the docuмent he states:
Quote
We teach, declare, and determine this, all persons not withstanding, no matter what special dignity they may have, and consequently we wish and order such in the Roman Pontifical.… No one therefore is allowed to infringe upon this Constitution given by us, nor should anyone dare to have the audacity to contradict it.
The Problem of Significatio ex Adjunctis
According to the majority of theologians, “Catholic theology teaches that if a properly constituted minister of a sacrament uses due matter and form, with at least the minimum personal intention necessary, his sacrament is valid, even if he adheres to a sect which is openly heretical.”[22] (http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/The_Post-Conciliar_Rite_of_Holy_Orders-by_Rama_P_Coomaraswamy.aspx#_ftn22) Now if this is the case, it would seem that the remainder of the rite—the so-called “ceremonial” part—is not essential for validity. (As has been pointed out elsewhere, a priest who uses these criteria within a non-Catholic rite is guilty of sacrilege, but sacrilege as such does not necessarily invalidate the sacrament.)
Despite this principle, Pope Leo XIII taught that the revised 1662 form of Anglican Orders is invalid (among other reasons) because the terms “priest” and “bishop” mean vastly different things to Anglicans than they do to Catholics. This, he said, is made clear from the other parts of the Anglican rite which deliberately delete every reference to the sacrificial nature of these exalted states. To quote him directly:
Quote
In the whole [Anglican] ordinal not only is there no clear mention of the sacrifice, of consecration, of the priesthood (sacerdotium), and of the power of consecrating and offering sacrifice, but, as We have just stated, every trace of these things which had been in such prayers of the Catholic rite as they had not only entirely rejected, was deliberately removed and struck out (Apostolicae curae).
In the traditional Catholic rite innumerable references make it clear that the primary function of the priest is to offer the sacrifice; his other functions are also delineated. (So also with the bishop.) The fact that other parts of the rite make the meaning of the form quite clear is termed significatio ex adjunctis. It would seem that while a positive significatio ex adjunctis may not be essential for validity, a negative one—as for example when every reference to the sacrificial nature of the priesthood is deliberately omitted—may invalidate the form.[23] (http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/The_Post-Conciliar_Rite_of_Holy_Orders-by_Rama_P_Coomaraswamy.aspx#_ftn23)
The Post-Conciliar Rite for Ordaining Priests
The issue of significatio ex adjunctis becomes critical in evaluating the validity of the post-Conciliar rite for ordaining priests. Like its Anglican prototype, the new Latin “form” contains the word “priest,” but like its Anglican prototype, the remainder of the new rite fails to specify the sacrificial nature of the priesthood.[24] (http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/The_Post-Conciliar_Rite_of_Holy_Orders-by_Rama_P_Coomaraswamy.aspx#_ftn24) Thus it would appear to suffer from precisely the same defects that Leo XIII pointed to in the Anglican rite.
It is interesting to consider Michael Davies’ assessment of the new rite.[25] (http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/The_Post-Conciliar_Rite_of_Holy_Orders-by_Rama_P_Coomaraswamy.aspx#_ftn25) He points out that, while the “form” used in the new rite is not greatly different from that specified by Pius XII, it nevertheless contains nothing “to which any Protestant could take exception,” and nothing that “is in the least incompatible with Protestant teaching.” Now, if the form is “indeterminate,” and if the remainder of the rite fails to specify that it intends to ordain sacrificing priests, then the new rite suffers from exactly the same defects as its Anglican prototype. The fact that Leo XIII’s pronouncement irreformably condemned the Anglican rite on just these grounds obviously justifies raising questions about the validity of the post-Conciliar result.
According to Michael Davies:[26] (http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/The_Post-Conciliar_Rite_of_Holy_Orders-by_Rama_P_Coomaraswamy.aspx#_ftn26)
Quote
Paul VI promulgated the new ordination rites for deacon, priest, and bishop with his Apostolic Constitution Pontificalis Romani recognitio of 18 June 1968. Where the rite for ordaining a priest is concerned, the first point to make is that the matter and essential form designated by Pius XII in Sacramentum Ordinis remain unchanged. [This is not strictly speaking true as the next section points out.] This is a point in favor of the new rite. It is the only point in its favor. The traditional rite of ordination has been remodeled “in the most drastic manner,” and following Cranmer’s example, this has been achieved principally by the subtraction of “prayers and ceremonies in previous use,” prayers and ceremonies which gave explicit sacerdotal signification to the indeterminate formula specified by Pius XII as the essential form. This formula does indeed state that the candidates for ordination are to be elevated to the priesthood—but so does the Anglican. Within the context of the traditional Roman Pontifical there was not the least suspicion of ambiguity—within the new rite there most certainly is. While the new rite in no way suggests that it is not intended to ordain sacrificing priests, where (and if) it does refer to the sacrifice of the Mass it does so in muted tones, and with considerable stress laid on the ministry of the Word—a change in emphasis well calculated to please the Protestants.… Cranmer’s reform has been followed not simply in the composition of the new Ordinal, denuded of almost every mandatory reference to the sacrifice of the Mass—the very term “sacrifice of the Mass” does not occur in either the Latin or vernacular.
So much is this the case that Michael Davies believes that the strongest—and perhaps only—argument in favor of its validity is that it was promulgated by, in his mind, a valid Pope (Paul VI). While the principle that a valid Pope cannot promulgate an invalid sacrament is correct, Michael Davies seems oblivious to the possibility that his argument can be inverted. If the rite is shown to be invalid, or for that matter, even doubtful, one is forced to question the legitimacy of the Pope.[27] (http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/The_Post-Conciliar_Rite_of_Holy_Orders-by_Rama_P_Coomaraswamy.aspx#_ftn27)  
Michael Davies is of course mistaken when he states that the post-Conciliar “form” for ordaining priests is unchanged. Consider once again the words specified by Pius XII: “Da, quaesumus, omnipotens Pater, in hos famulos tuos presbyterii dignitatem. Innova in visceribus eorum spiritum sanctitatis, ut acceptum a te, Deus, secundi meriti munus obtineant; censuramque morum exemplo suae conversationis insinuent” (Grant, we beseech Thee, Almighty Father, to these Thy servants, the dignity of the priesthood; renew the spirit of holiness within them so that they may obtain the office of the second rank received from Thee, O God, and may, by the example of their lives inculcate the pattern of holy living). The sacrosanct character of the substance of a sacramental form has already been discussed. Pope Pius XII specified that for validity the sacrament of Orders must clearly specify the sacramental effects involved. These are, in the rite under consideration, the power of Orders and the Grace of the Holy Ghost (Sacramentum Ordinis).
If we examine this new formula we see that the first part expresses the power of the priestly order, but not the Grace of the Holy Ghost. The word “priesthood,” however, has lost its specifically Catholic meaning during the past few centuries, so that the second sentence fulfills two functions: it specifies that the priesthood is an “office of the second rank,” and further specifies that the “Grace of the Holy Ghost” accompanies the sacrament.
When we come to the post-Conciliar form, confusion reigns. In the Latin, the form specified in Paul VI’s official promulgation (found in the Pontificalis Romani Recognitio) uses the phrase “in his famulos tuos” (similar to the traditional form and Pius XII), while the Acta Apostolica—equally official—uses the phrase “his famulis tuis.” Further, regardless of which post-Conciliar form is considered “official,” both delete the word “ut.”
What do these changes signify? The deletion of the word “ut” (meaning “so that”) removes the causal relationship between the two sentences. No longer is it made clear that the ordinand receives the “office of the second rank” as a result of the “renewal of the spirit of holiness.” Whether or not this invalidates the rite is open to question and much depends on the reason why ut was deleted.
By changing in hos famulos tuos (on these Thy servants) to his famulis tuis, not only are the words of Pius XII further altered, but their sense is changed. In hos famulos tuos implies giving something to the ordinand in such a manner that it enters into him and becomes interior to him. To specify his famulis tuis has the sense of giving something to someone merely as an external possession—without the idea of it entering into him and becoming part of him. The significance of this difference should hit home, as Fr. Jenkins points out, when we remember that we are speaking here of the order of priesthood, which involves the indelible character imprinted upon the very soul of the recipient. This idea is clearly conveyed in the traditional expression, but not in the new form created by Paul VI.[28] (http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/The_Post-Conciliar_Rite_of_Holy_Orders-by_Rama_P_Coomaraswamy.aspx#_ftn28) Rather, the new formula communicates the idea that the priesthood is an external office (such as the “Presidency”), and such as Reformers believed in. Such a change in meaning is thus clearly “substantial.”
Things are made even more confusing when the vernacular is used. The “provisional” ICEL (English) translation used between June 1968 and June 1970 asked that the ordinand be given “the dignity” of the “presbyterate.” Now the term “presbyter” has been used throughout history by the Reformers to designate their non-sacrificing and non-ordained “ministers.” As I have clearly shown above, the term in English can in no way be considered as equivalent to “priest”—indeed, it signifies just the opposite, and even the High Anglicans reject its use.[29] (http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/The_Post-Conciliar_Rite_of_Holy_Orders-by_Rama_P_Coomaraswamy.aspx#_ftn29) This casts still further doubt on validity—as is recognized by the fact that after 1970 the ICEL translation no longer used it, but reverted to “priesthood.” However, the innovators seem determined to maintain the doubtful status of the rite. Even though in 1970 they changed “presbyter” back to “priesthood,” they also changed the meaning of the second part of the formula by mistranslating and changing “the office of the second rank” (the importance of which was demonstrated above) to “co-workers with the order of bishops.” Needless to say, this latter phrase is completely indeterminate and can mean almost anything except “office of the second rank.”
Highly significant of the post-Conciliar presidential “ordination” is the omission or rather deletion of the phrase which states that a priest is ordained according to the Order of Melchisedech, for Melchisedech who is both king and priest, is a figure of the Messiah who offers a sacrifice of bread and wine.[30] (http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/The_Post-Conciliar_Rite_of_Holy_Orders-by_Rama_P_Coomaraswamy.aspx#_ftn30)
Consider some of the other deletions. In the traditional rite the Bishop addresses those about to be ordained stating that, “It is a priest’s duty to offer the sacrifice, to bless, to lead, to preach and to baptize.” This admonition has been abolished in the new ceremony. In the traditional rite, while the men to be ordained lie prostrate on the floor, the Litany of Saints is sung: “That thou wouldst recall all who have wandered from the unity of the Church, and lead all unbelievers to the light of the Gospel.” This unecuмenical petition is excluded. Again, in the traditional rite, after the newly ordained priests are vested with stole and chasuble, the bishop recites a long prayer including the words, “Theirs be the task to change with blessing undefiled, for the service of Thy people, bread and wine into the body and blood of Thy Son.” This prayer has been abolished.
In the traditional rite, after the anointing and consecrating of the hands which are then bound together, the bishop extends to each priest the chalice containing wine and water, with a paten and host upon it for the priest to touch, while he says to each: “Receive the power to offer sacrifice to God, and to celebrate Mass, both for the living and the dead in the name of the Lord.” This has also been abolished. Again, just before the post-communion, each new priest kneels before the bishop who lays both hands upon his head and says: “Receive the Holy Ghost, whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.” Again, this has been abolished. The final blessing of the bishop: “The blessing of God Almighty come down upon you and make you blessed in the priestly order, enabling you to offer propitiatory sacrifices for sins of the people to Almighty God” has been abolished. So much for the significatio ex adjunctis of the new rite.
But if all this is not enough to cast doubt on the validity of post-Conciliar ordinations, there is yet more. Obviously, one of the requirements for valid ordination of a priest is a validly ordained bishop. No matter how correct the rites used for the priesthood are, the absence of a validly ordained bishop would make the rite a farce.[31] (http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/The_Post-Conciliar_Rite_of_Holy_Orders-by_Rama_P_Coomaraswamy.aspx#_ftn31) Let us then look at what has been done for the episcopate.
Comparing the Traditional with the Post-Conciliar
Matter and Form for ordaining bishops
As noted above, Pope Pius XII, while in no way changing the rite used since time immemorial,[32] (http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/The_Post-Conciliar_Rite_of_Holy_Orders-by_Rama_P_Coomaraswamy.aspx#_ftn32) determined in a presumably infallible manner that:
Quote
In the ordination or consecration of bishops the matter is the imposition of hands which is done by the consecrating bishop. The form consists of the words in the Preface of which the following are essential and therefore necessary for validity: “comple in sacerdote tuo ministerii tui summum, et ornamentis totius glorificationis instructum coelestis unguenti rore sanctifica”—fill up in Thy priest the perfection (summum can also be translated “fullness”) of Thy ministry and sanctify him with the dew of Thy heavenly ointment this Thy servant decked out with the ornaments of all beauty.
Later in the same docuмent he states: “We teach, declare, and determine this, all persons not withstanding, no matter what special dignity they may have, and consequently we wish and order such in the Roman Pontifical.… No one therefore is allowed to infringe upon this Constitution given by us, nor should anyone dare to have the audacity to contradict it.”
One would have thought that this statement by Pius XII had settled the issue once and for all. Not so! Only 20 years later we find Paul VI issuing his Apostolic Constitution entitled Pontificalis Romani (June 23, 1968) in which he retains the matter—the laying on of hands—but in which he specifies that the form for ordaining bishops is to be:
Quote
et nunc effunde super hunc electum eam virtutem, quae a te est, spiritum principalem, quem dedisti dilecto filio tuo Jesu Christo, quem ipse donavit sanctis apostolis, qui constituerunt ecclesiam per singula loca, ut sanctuarium tuum, in gloriam et laudem indificientem nominis tui—So now pour forth upon this chosen one that power which is from You, the governing Spirit whom You gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by Him to the holy Apostles, who found the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing  glory and praise of your name.[33] (http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/The_Post-Conciliar_Rite_of_Holy_Orders-by_Rama_P_Coomaraswamy.aspx#_ftn33)
We have then two forms, or more precisely two groups of “essential” words wherein the substance of the form is to be found, and both of which are stated to be required for validity. How are we to explain this apparent disparity? We know that the Church has the right to change the wording of the form for Holy Orders, but only insofar as she doesn’t change their “substance” or meaning. The problem to be resolved then, is whether both forms mean the same thing. Several approaches are possible:
1) We can compare the wording of the two forms and find those words or phrases held in common. Doing this however yields the following common element: the single word “et” which means “and.” Now, obviously “and” cannot represent the substantial aspect of these two forms and such an approach must be rejected as absurd. 
2) Another way to determine the substance of the form is to consider the various consecratory prayers in use throughout the universal Church (Eastern and Western). This was indeed done by Jean Moran, and still later, by the English bishops in their “Vindication of the Bull,” Apostolicae curae.[34] (http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/The_Post-Conciliar_Rite_of_Holy_Orders-by_Rama_P_Coomaraswamy.aspx#_ftn34)  
Quote
In each of the rites which the Catholic Church has recognized, the “essential form” is contained in a “consecrating prayer” to accompany the imposition of hands, and these prayers are in all cases of the same type, defining in some way or other the Orders to which the candidate is being promoted, and beseeching God to bestow upon him the graces of his new state.[35] (http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/The_Post-Conciliar_Rite_of_Holy_Orders-by_Rama_P_Coomaraswamy.aspx#_ftn35)
They then proceed to give a list of these prayers which includes the ancient Leonine Sacramentary “still preserved in the modern Pontifical,” the Greek, the Syro-Maronite (which is also the Syro-Jacobite), the Nestorian, the Armenian, the Coptic (or Alexandro-Jacobite), and the Abyssinian, together with the ancient Gallican, the rite in the Apostolic constitutions, and the “Canons of St. Hippolytus.” They proceed to list the significant words respectively in each—the “high priesthood” (summi sacerdotii), the “Pontifical dignity,” the term “bishop,” the “perfect (or complete) priest,” and the “episcopate.” This specification is to be found in all the known used forms (i.e., in the essential words of the various Western Catholic and Orthodox Churches).[36] (http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/The_Post-Conciliar_Rite_of_Holy_Orders-by_Rama_P_Coomaraswamy.aspx#_ftn36) It is even found in the Canons of Hippolytus. The form of Paul VI does not fill these requirements. Present in the words specified by Pius XII, it is conspicuous by its absence in the post-Conciliar form. Neither the rank, nor the power, nor a clear equivalent is present. And as Leo XIII made clear in his Apostolicae curae, the mentioning of the Holy Ghost—if “governing Spirit” is in fact the Holy Ghost—is insufficient.
3) Another way to determine what is substantial is to consider the opinions of the theologians during the post-Reformation period. They are reviewed in some detail by Paul Bradshaw in his history of the Anglican Ordinal. One such individual was the Benedictine Wilfrid Raynal who stated that a valid form must express the distinctive character of the order being conferred in one of three ways: a) an allusion to the type found in the ancient Testament of the order conferred; b) the mention of some spiritual power which is the distinctive privilege of the order to which the candidate is raised; or c) the actual mention made of the office under the name which from earliest times has become attached to it, namely summus sacerdos for bishop or sacerdos secundi ordinis for priest. He further added that the actual mention of the words “bishop” and “priest” must really and truly bear the meaning attached to them by the Universal Church. A formal denial of the distinctive character of these two sacred offices must vitiate the intention, and would render the ordination null and void. Now, as Bradshaw points out, “all the Western and Eastern forms fulfilled these requirements.” The new rite of Paul VI does not.
All debate is resolved by the statement of Pius XII in his Sacramentum Ordinis. As the renowned theologian J.M. Hervé, who considers this definition infallible, states: “forma vero, quae et una est, sunt verba, quibus significatur effectum sacramentale, silicet potestas Ordinis et gratia Spiritus Sancti”—the true form (i.e., the substance of the form) is that which signifies the sacramental effect, which is to say the power of orders (i.e., priest or bishop) and the Grace of the Holy Spirit.”[37] (http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/The_Post-Conciliar_Rite_of_Holy_Orders-by_Rama_P_Coomaraswamy.aspx#_ftn37)  
Consider once again the form specified by Paul VI:
Quote
So now pour forth upon this chosen one that power which is from You, the governing Spirit whom You gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by Him to the holy Apostles, who found the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name.
It is perfectly clear that in no place is it specified that the rank or dignity of a bishop has been conferred. The request that God give the “governing Spirit” (spiritum principalem—whatever that is) “whom You gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by Him to the holy Apostles” may imply that he is raised to the rank of the Apostles, but it doesn’t clearly so state. The sacramental effect is not clearly specified and at best we are left with another post-Conciliar ambiguity. Again, in the former, the Grace of the Holy Spirit is clearly indicated by the time-honored phrase “Coelestis unguenti rore” while in the latter we are left with a phrase entirely new to sacramental theology—spiritum principalem. Insofar as some will argue that this phrase (or the phrase “eam virtutem quae a te est, spiritum principalem”) suffices for the substance of the form, and indeed, insofar as it is the only phrase in the new form for which such a claim could be made, it behooves us to examine it in detail.

Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Pax Vobis on March 27, 2023, 01:21:47 PM

Quote
Wow, it's a pricey book. How many pages?
You can find brand new copies for $20.  Don't pay anything more than that.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: HeavyHanded on March 27, 2023, 05:32:16 PM
Maybe the new-sspx shouldn't spend millions of dollars on a new seminary and instead, build on to the chapel in NY, which sounds quite small.  But the sspx has always made odd real estate decisions.
You should read Sean Johnson's book about the 100+ ways that the new-sspx has changed, just in the span of 10 years.  The sspx of old would've never had anything to do with the diocese or their churches (no matter how big or beautiful they are) because new-rome and all those in the dioceses around the world promote quasi-heresies, doctrinal relativism and liturgical revolution.  These people in the diocese agree with new-rome, V2 and the new mass...and are enemies of the True Church (whether they realize it or not).  The sspx (and all of tradition) ORIGINALLY existed because the dioceses are not 100% catholic and a danger to salvation.

We should pray for all those who are part of new-rome and dioceses and the indult.  They need to convert and wake up.  New-rome has not changed; they are still Modernist and they are getting more and more new-agey and antichrist every day.  The new-sspx acts like the war is over.  They are acting like an indult community instead of a Traditional community.  True charity is pointing out truths of this change.  I hope you spend time to educate yourself.  God bless.
I see this object all the time here. I wonder how many people here are involved in the building trade, because I can tell you it’s often more expensive to renovate/restore an old building than it is to build new.
Looks like the diocesan church the confirmation was held at does not offer the NO, but an “English Mass”. 
it just seems like people here revel in their hatred of the SSPX and take any opportunity to throw stones, whether they know the facts or not. 
I went to my first Mass in my life a little over a year ago, and my experience with the sspx has been great. I’m sure I would feel differently if they sold the chapel I attend, which is a situation that could happen.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Matthew on March 28, 2023, 05:54:52 AM
it just seems like people here revel in their hatred of the SSPX and take any opportunity to throw stones, whether they know the facts or not.
I went to my first Mass in my life a little over a year ago, and my experience with the sspx has
been great.

You attended your first *Mass* in your life a little over a year ago? Well, congratulations on your conversion to the True Faith. Not gonna lie, a conversion is always a good thing.

But you need to show some respect for those of us who have been Catholic -- or even Trad Catholic (fighting the Conciliar Church corruption) -- for decades. Know your place. You yourself admit you are new to the SSPX. Why not admit that those who attended the SSPX for decades might know more about the situation than you?

For example, I personally have spent 3.5 years at an SSPX Seminary full time (as a seminarian), with 20 years at an independent chapel before that, and 12 years at SSPX chapels after that. Compared with your 1 year as a Catholic. Don't you suppose I might have my good reasons for criticizing the SSPX? Don't you suppose I know many people, have spoken with people all over the country, and in general know what I'm talking about?

I would suggest you adopt more the role of LEARNER, DISCIPLE with a lot of DOCILITY, MEEKNESS and HUMILITY, rather than coming off as our MASTER and TEACHER, with an attitude of SKEPTICISM, SUPERIORITY and PRIDE.

In fact, I have my serious doubts that you've seen any bad examples of SSPX-axe-grinders, from which to get upset and draw generalizations. I know how it goes at SSPX chapels; I've been there done that. I know the lies, slander, the propaganda and rhetoric. I lived through the *hot* phase of the current SSPX-Resistance conflict. I know how the SSPX downplayed or even lied about *all* the decades-long members, major volunteers, major donors, and pillars of the parish who left and joined the Resistance. The Resistance itself, objectively made up of the SSPX's greatest friends and supporters, was dismissed by the new regime as a bunch of malcontents, sedevacantists, non-members, etc.

You're learning your "history" from those who didn't leave the SSPX. Keep that in mind. There is going to be a bias there.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Comrade on March 28, 2023, 07:40:37 AM
You attended your first *Mass* in your life a little over a year ago? Well, congratulations on your conversion to the True Faith. Not gonna lie, a conversion is always a good thing.

But you need to show some respect for those of us who have been Catholic -- or even Trad Catholic (fighting the Conciliar Church corruption) -- for decades. Know your place. You yourself admit you are new to the SSPX. Why not admit that those who attended the SSPX for decades might know more about the situation than you?

For example, I personally have spent 3.5 years at an SSPX Seminary full time (as a seminarian), with 20 years at an independent chapel before that, and 12 years at SSPX chapels after that. Compared with your 1 year as a Catholic. Don't you suppose I might have my good reasons for criticizing the SSPX? Don't you suppose I know many people, have spoken with people all over the country, and in general know what I'm talking about?

I would suggest you adopt more the role of LEARNER, DISCIPLE with a lot of DOCILITY, MEEKNESS and HUMILITY, rather than coming off as our MASTER and TEACHER, with an attitude of SKEPTICISM, SUPERIORITY and PRIDE.

In fact, I have my serious doubts that you've seen any bad examples of SSPX-axe-grinders, from which to get upset and draw generalizations. I know how it goes at SSPX chapels; I've been there done that. I know the lies, slander, the propaganda and rhetoric. I lived through the *hot* phase of the current SSPX-Resistance conflict. I know how the SSPX downplayed or even lied about *all* the decades-long members, major volunteers, major donors, and pillars of the parish who left and joined the Resistance. The Resistance itself, objectively made up of the SSPX's greatest friends and supporters, was dismissed by the new regime as a bunch of malcontents, sedevacantists, non-members, etc.

You're learning your "history" from those who didn't leave the SSPX. Keep that in mind. There is going to be a bias there.
Well said, Mathew. My SSPX Chapel literally did not grow for 25 years until we received an influx of "Covid Catholics". Since, we have increased by at 50%. I suspect (with good reason) none of them even know their Faith nor grasp the crisis in the Church nor can articulate why they can be disobedient to their bishop. They consider Bishop Fellay as their lawful authority. Even the the few that showed up post 2012, would swear that the SSPX was NOT seeking agreement with Rome. 
 
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Plenus Venter on March 28, 2023, 08:12:24 AM
I see this object all the time here. I wonder how many people here are involved in the building trade, because I can tell you it’s often more expensive to renovate/restore an old building than it is to build new.
Looks like the diocesan church the confirmation was held at does not offer the NO, but an “English Mass”.
it just seems like people here revel in their hatred of the SSPX and take any opportunity to throw stones, whether they know the facts or not.
I went to my first Mass in my life a little over a year ago, and my experience with the sspx has been great. I’m sure I would feel differently if they sold the chapel I attend, which is a situation that could happen.
Nobody here revels in hatred of the SSPX, HH, most on this forum love it dearly, and are heartbroken by the Liberal turn it took in 2012.
Nor do we deny that there is still much good in the SSPX, many good priests, faithful (many of whom are our good friends) and the Traditional Catholic life and sacraments.
What you are enjoying, though, is the fruit of 50 years of resistance by the SSPX, and this resistance has now been undermined.
The enemy that St Pius X told us had infiltrated the Church, is without doubt well and truly encamped now within the SSPX.
So we need to be on our guard. We are in a battle for the Faith. So cut us a little slack if occasionally we seem a bit too critical or suspicious. Please God we are only judging circuмstances and doctrine and never people.
Do yourself a favour and listen to the video posted under 'Resistance' of the conference given by Bishop Thomas Aquinas in Brazil.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Pax Vobis on March 28, 2023, 09:18:16 AM

Quote
Please God we are only judging circuмstances and doctrine and never people.
THIS ^^



Quote
What you are enjoying, though, is the fruit of 50 years of resistance by the SSPX, and this resistance has now been undermined.
Right.  And if God allowed the Devil to infiltrate the Divinely-created Church, He will certainly allow the sspx to be infiltrated. 


Right now is the devil's hour; God is allowing crisis in all areas of life to try our Faith.  He's sifting the wheat from the chaff.  This is the battle of our days - to persevere without change.  The new-sspx has changed, slowly, but surely towards V2.  We must resist.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Cornelius935 on March 28, 2023, 02:21:52 PM
Looks like the diocesan church the confirmation was held at does not offer the NO, but an “English Mass”.
An “English Mass” is a simple way to say “Novus Ordo Mass said in English”. The Conciliar Church almost never refers to its service as “the Novus Ordo”, except when talking about the New Mass vs the Old Mass. When they say “Mass”, they're talking about their Mass, the Conciliar Mass, not the Catholic Mass.

So as you can see, the N.O.M. is a counterfeit “Mass” of a counterfeit religion that is designed to deceive you (and all of mankind) to think that it is the Catholic religion. That is why as a neophyte, first of all you need to learn more about the Faith and the crisis of the Church. It's apparent that in your catechism lessons, the latter part was not given to you sufficiently. Learning should come before anything, especially before commenting online and accusing other Catholics of lack of charity etc. Charity abides not with falsehood but with the truth.

Perhaps the book “Catechism of the Crisis of the Church” by Fr. Gaudron will benefit you.

[This is one of my complaints about the SSPX, they don't teach their faithful enough about modern errors, and how not to be deceived by them. I find that many people who grew up in the SSPX bubble are incredibly clueless about “the world outside”. The SSPX is repeating the mistake of parishes in the 1950s - only the “nice and positive things” of the Faith are taught, there's little to no theoretical AND practical knowledge about living in the modern world. Practical knowledge nowadays would be, for instance, how to look for Masses to attend and to avoid in a foreign town, how to know whether a book with a Christian title is Catholic, Conciliar or Protestant...]
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: HeavyHanded on March 28, 2023, 04:56:07 PM
Apologies to anyone my comments offended. I see they were uncalled for. I picked my user name for a reason, and maybe add some misplaced zeal in there. 
I know I have a lot to learn. I was raised lukewarm Protestant with no knowledge about the faith. Converting was the best thing I have ever done for myself and my family, and maybe I feel sense of gratitude or attachment to the sspx. I tried going to a NO mass when we were searching. I was not converting to that. 
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: hollingsworth on March 28, 2023, 11:01:33 PM

Quote
I know I have a lot to learn. I was raised lukewarm Protestant with no knowledge about the faith. Converting was the best thing I have ever done for myself and my family, and maybe I feel sense of gratitude or attachment to the sspx. I tried going to a NO mass when we were searching. I was not converting to that. 
Maybe HeavyHanded doesn't need to learn a lot.  Maybe it's best that he know very little.  So HH, just enjoy your sspx experience.  Eat the 'saugage' they offer; and don't enquire too much about how it is made.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Ladislaus on March 28, 2023, 11:18:55 PM
Please God we are only judging circuмstances and doctrine and never people.

Well, we can judge people as well ... in the external forum, and don't therefore subscribe to Bergoglio's "who am I to judge?"  That's actually been the key issue with Bergoglio's moral relativism, where he believes the the internal forum can bleed out into the external thereby making judgment in the external forum impossible.  That is the key foundation for his assertion that some discernment of the "internal forum" can result in the justification of sinful cohabitation by those who are married to others.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Plenus Venter on March 29, 2023, 07:06:48 AM
Well, we can judge people as well ... in the external forum, and don't therefore subscribe to Bergoglio's "who am I to judge?"  That's actually been the key issue with Bergoglio's moral relativism, where he believes the the internal forum can bleed out into the external thereby making judgment in the external forum impossible.  That is the key foundation for his assertion that some discernment of the "internal forum" can result in the justification of sinful cohabitation by those who are married to others.
I agree I didn't word it very well. We judge the words, the actions, the doctrine, the situations and circuмstances etc, whether they be good and true, that is why God gave us an intellect. But we dare not judge the soul, the internal forum, as Our Lord commanded "judge not and thou shalt not be judged". 
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Jerome14 on March 29, 2023, 07:30:56 AM
I'm a stupid ignoramus who knows nothing about the SSPX or the Resistance.

So look at the evidence instead:

https://www.cathinfo.com/c.htm

As We Are?
101 Compromises, Changes, and Contradictions of an SSPX in Pursuit of a Practical Accord with Modernist Rome
by Sean Johnson
https://www.chantcd.com/index.php/As-We-Are-101-Compromises-Changes-Contradictions-of-an-SSPX (https://www.chantcd.com/index.php/As-We-Are-101-Compromises-Changes-Contradictions-of-an-SSPX)


The SSPX has changed!

The SSPX is heading for a full merger with the Modernist Rome of Vatican II, and it's already most of the way there -- formal deal or no! The facts don't lie. Countless changes, compromises, and contradictions have already occurred within the SSPX -- past tense. This isn't about what the SSPX might do; it's about what THE SSPX HAS DONE over the past 7 years. Here is a book (almost 400 pages) detailing the docuмented, hard evidence to prove this assertion. This book will convince you that the SSPX has taken a hard U-turn back to Conciliar Modernist Rome!
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Stubborn on March 29, 2023, 07:43:51 AM
Wow, it's a pricey book. How many pages?
PDF attached, well worth reading.


 
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Meg on March 29, 2023, 10:27:05 AM
Maybe HeavyHanded doesn't need to learn a lot.  Maybe it's best that he know very little.  So HH, just enjoy your sspx experience.  Eat the 'saugage' they offer; and don't enquire too much about how it is made.

So the sacraments as administered by the SSPX are nothing more than a sausage to you? We need to have the sacraments from somewhere, otherwise we just become home-aloners. Are the SSPX sacraments not valid, in your opinion? Where do you receive the sacraments, btw?

It's one thing to criticize the SSPX for their attempted ralliement with Rome, but it's quite another thing to say that we cannot go to them for the sacraments.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: hollingsworth on March 29, 2023, 04:37:38 PM

Quote
So the sacraments as administered by the SSPX are nothing more than a sausage to you? We need to have the sacraments from somewhere, otherwise we just become home-aloners. Are the SSPX sacraments not valid, in your opinion? Where do you receive the sacraments, btw?

It's one thing to criticize the SSPX for their attempted ralliement with Rome, but it's quite another thing to say that we cannot go to them for the sacraments.
The part in bold provided a good lauugh.

I said nothing about the validity of sspx sacraments, Meg.
The saugage metaphor is not meant to describe the quality of sspx sacraments.
It was meant only to describe the product, viz. sspx sacramens vs. the manner in which that 'product' is prepared, and by whom.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Yeti on March 29, 2023, 07:49:35 PM
Where do you receive the sacraments, btw?
.

I second this question.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: trento on March 30, 2023, 01:40:12 AM
I'm actually more inclined to believe that +Williamson will ordain more bishops than to believe in the veracity of this rumor.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on March 30, 2023, 05:13:37 AM
I'm actually more inclined to believe that +Williamson will ordain more bishops than to believe in the veracity of this rumor.

I’ve been saying that since 2015, after Laisney’s idiotic “Striking Contrasts” article sponsored by Menzingen announced Rome was ceded control (an interpretation bolstered by observing the SSPX sending its GC results to Rome for ratification).
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on March 30, 2023, 05:22:54 AM
I'm actually more inclined to believe that +Williamson will ordain more bishops than to believe in the veracity of this rumor.

PS: Bishops are consecrated, not ordained.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Ladislaus on March 30, 2023, 07:10:34 AM
I’ve been saying that since 2015, after Laisney’s idiotic “Striking Contrasts” article sponsored by Menzingen announced Rome was ceded control (an interpretation bolstered by observing the SSPX sending its GC results to Rome for ratification).

Yes, I listed the notorious Fr. Laisney as being on the short list of any potential consecrands ... if it were to happen.  Throw in a Fr. Paul Robinson and a Fr. Gregoire Celier, and you have your triune Modernists.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on March 30, 2023, 08:17:29 AM
Yes, I listed the notorious Fr. Laisney as being on the short list of any potential consecrands ... if it were to happen.  Throw in a Fr. Paul Robinson and a Fr. Gregoire Celier, and you have your triune Modernists.

Edited: Need to wait until after Lent for this.
Title: Where will SSPX bishops be consecrated?
Post by: Geremia on April 06, 2023, 07:10:40 PM
Where are these bishops going to be consecrated? Rome? Ecône? Virginia? Somewhere else?
Title: Re: Where will SSPX bishops be consecrated?
Post by: Ladislaus on April 06, 2023, 07:24:58 PM
Where are these bishops going to be consecrated? Rome? Ecône? Virginia? Somewhere else?

Nobody knows IF they're going to be consecrated, much less where.
Title: Re: Where will SSPX bishops be consecrated?
Post by: Geremia on April 06, 2023, 07:34:12 PM
Nobody knows IF they're going to be consecrated, much less where.
Still, where is an important question.
Title: Re: Where will SSPX bishops be consecrated?
Post by: Mr G on April 06, 2023, 09:41:39 PM
Where are these bishops going to be consecrated? Rome? Ecône? Virginia? Somewhere else?
Davos
Title: Re: Where will SSPX bishops be consecrated?
Post by: Jr1991 on April 06, 2023, 09:52:32 PM
Davos
No doubt. Bernie Fellay loves money; Davos would be the perfect setting. 
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: MiracleOfTheSun on April 06, 2023, 11:21:04 PM
Well, at least we know who will perform the ceremony - Huonder.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Viva Cristo Rey on April 07, 2023, 02:07:06 AM
The One world religion is going into overdrive.  The novus Ordo is now fully Protestant contemporary.  They share the same formula of no sermons of repenting from sin.  Many identify as Christians but believe in the murder of babies as woman’s choice.  Many believe that everyone in mortal sin is accepted without having to repent.  Every perversion is being accepted as the normal in church and society.   Love is love.

Catholics and Protestants services have women in many roles as women neglect their main roles as domestic church of the home.

Already the Church is divided from within.  It lacks the marks.  A different gospel is being preached.  Christians have been attacked from within.  Rapes of innocent virgins is satanic attack on many to destroy church from inside.  “Good” Catholics allowed this evil. 

Mass rocks are back. 

All the evils in the world is because of lukewarm Catholics- Pope Pius V.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: OABrownson1876 on April 07, 2023, 10:39:25 AM
Form And Essential Words For Ordaining Priests
(PIUS XII)
Pius XII stated that “the form consists of the words of the Preface, of which these are essential and required for validity”: “Da, quaesumus, omnipotens Pater, in hos famulos tuos presbyterii dignitatem. Innova in visceribus eorum spiritum sanctitatis, ut acceptum a te, Deus, secundi meriti munus obtineant; censuramque morum exemplo suae conversationis insinuent” (Grant, we beseech Thee, Almighty Father, to these Thy servants, the dignity of the priesthood; renew the spirit of holiness within them so that they may obtain the office of the second rank received from Thee, O God, and may, by the example of their lives inculcate the pattern of holy living).
Similarly, in the ordination  of bishops, the same infallible docuмent states that “the form consists of the words of the Preface of which the following are essential and therefore necessary for validity”: “Comple in sacerdote tuo ministerii tui summum, et ornamentis totius glorificationis instructum coelestis unguenti rore sanctific” (Fill up in Thy priest the perfection [summum can also be translated “fullness”] of Thy ministry and sanctify him with the dew of Thy heavenly ointment, this thy servant decked out with the ornaments of all beauty).
It should be stressed that Pius XII in no way changed the rite—indeed, he stressed that the rite was to remain intact. At the end of the docuмent he states:
Not quite sure what book this translation is from, but unless we have forgotten our Latin, there is one critical phrase which has been left untranslated, ut acceptum a te, "So that having been accepted by you."  This phrase indicates a past completed action and precedes the subjunctive action, "so that they may obtain..." (obtineant).  This is my problem with so many of the Latin mistranslations.  I am not attributing ill will to this translator, but very often a mistranslation is willful and thus sinful.  Perhaps we are missing something here, but doubtful. 
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: OABrownson1876 on April 07, 2023, 12:08:49 PM
Correction, I did find the translated text in the aforesaid quote, but I would not have translated the subjunctive (hypothetical) text prior to the completed action.  In the Latin the completed action comes before, and, in my opinion, should be the same in the translation.  The "acceptum" refers to the second operative verb, Innova, "Make new."  It should be translated beginning with Innova, "Make new in their bowels the spirit of sanctity, so that having been accepted by You, Lord, they may obtain the gift of the second rank."      
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Gloria Tibi Domine on April 07, 2023, 01:01:06 PM
OABrownson1876-

Here is a link to the book the quote is from.



The Problems with the Other Sacraments: Apart from the New Mass: Coomaraswamy, Rama P., Radecki, C.M.R.I., Fr. Dominic Savio: 9781597314619: Amazon.com: Books (https://www.amazon.com/Problems-Other-Sacraments-Apart-Mass/dp/1597314617/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_pl_foot_top?ie=UTF8)
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Gloria Tibi Domine on April 07, 2023, 01:11:04 PM
For some reason the  link didn't copy.

The name of the book is:

"The Problems With the Other Sacramnets: Apart From the New Mass"

By Rama P. Coomaraswamy

Avalable from Amazon.
The Problems with the Other Sacraments: Apart from the New Mass: Coomaraswamy, Rama P., Radecki, C.M.R.I., Fr. Dominic Savio: 9781597314619: Amazon.com: Books (https://www.amazon.com/Problems-Other-Sacraments-Apart-Mass/dp/1597314617/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_pl_foot_top?ie=UTF8)
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: OABrownson1876 on April 07, 2023, 02:11:45 PM
Thanks GTD, I will try and pick this up.  I like Dr. Coomaraswamy.  I have some personal letters between Dr. C and Mother Teresa.  Dr. C lost some of his own family members to the Novus Ordo because they fell into the Mother Teresa liberalism trap.  Mother Teresa was in support of the Paul VI revolution and Dr. C called her out on it. 
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: TKGS on April 07, 2023, 07:49:26 PM
May Bishop Huonder will consecrate the new bishops since he's consecrating their holy oils now.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Ladislaus on April 07, 2023, 09:00:19 PM
May Bishop Huonder will consecrate the new bishops since he's consecrating their holy oils now.

Rome would insist.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on April 08, 2023, 02:08:24 PM


The SSPX has gone the way of the Dodo bird! :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on April 19, 2023, 04:27:30 PM
I had heard this news privately, and began formulating an outline in preparation for an article/analysis, but with too many projects on my desk, abandoned it as just another distraction.  Nevertheless, here are some ideas I would have developed (however, as CI does not allow numbers and/or bulletpoints, the formatting is very jumbled):


  • The SSPX will market the consecrations as the final realization of +Lefebvre's battle (i.e., "He always wanted a bishop to continue Tradition, and now we finally have Rome giving them to us.").
  • But the problems with this ploy are numerous:

    • Once +Lefebvre realized the Romans were negotiating in bad faith, he considered it necessary to consecrate bishops independent of them.
    • He further stated that we must remain separated from this conciliar Church until they come back to the faith (Spiritual Journey).
    • These two aforementioned observations should reasonably pre-empt the SSPX’s anticipated rebuttal that the 2023 consecrations are the fulfillment of +Lefebvre's goal (and secondarily, the anticipated claim that Rome is no longer poorly disposed toward Tradition).
    • But such idiocy must necessarily pass over in silence the hostile actions of BXVI (whom +Ganswein said was always trying to lure the faithful and clergy away from +Lefebvre, and who intended to create a hybrid rite in order to reorient trads toward the conciliar reforms, and also use the hermeneutic of continuity to reorient them toward conciliar doctrine), and of Francis’ recent legislation, who's blatant hostility requires no explanation.
  • The question then becomes, “What can we make of bishops consecrated by a Rome more hostile to Tradition than ever?

    • Obviously, the candidates chosen for consecration will be unknown liberals (they cannot be known liberals, because this would open the operation up to criticism, and expose the Roman strategy).  Nor could such candidates be stalwart traditionalists (if any are still to be found within the SSPX ranks), since this would obviously be contrary to anti-traditionalist Rome’s agenda to dilute, then capture. Tradition.
  • Supposing the aforementioned observations were accurate, would the consecration of bishops represent a win or a loss for Tradition and the recovery of the Church?

    • +Lefebvre famously said that since the Society has everything to lose and nothing to gain, every compromise is a loss.
    • I wrote a book detailing over 100 of these compromises, changes, and contradictions, intended by the SSPX to garner goodwill from modernist Rome (the most conspicuous of which is the relinquishing of combativeness against modernism, instead preferring to collaborate rather than fight it, and naively thinking it can co-exist without qualitative decline and slowly sliding into modernism themselves…despite the compromises just alluded to, which prove the opposite).
  • The final conclusion, therefore, which any prudent traditionalist would have to arrive at, is that the consecration of modernist-approved bishops will materially continue to extend the temporal existence of the SSPX, but only at the expense of cementing and solidifying its conciliar trajectory, which as mentioned necessitates silence in the face of conciliar and Roman errors, and the continued qualitative dilution of its own doctrinal, moral, and liturgical positions.
  • Fr. Cottier (later made a Cardinal after his conquest of Campos) once advised with the psychological shrewdness of the devil, "We must be patient...what is important is that there no longer be rejection in their hearts...gradually, we must expect further steps, such as concelebration..."

    If +Fellay famously said the Society agreed with 95% of Vatican II, and the Society no longer combats the modernist errors of Rome with the same vigor of yesteryear, its a pretty good indication that "rejection (of conciliarism) is no longer in their hearts." 

    The salt has lost its savor...


BUMP.

I just figured it out, in light of the Huonder consecration of holy oils: The SSPX is preparing the terrain for the acceptance of conciliar-approved and/or conciliar-consecrated bishops.

If the faithful accept the validity of the holy oils, they will accept the validity of a bishop.

"+Lefebvre is victoriuos!" they will declare.

But it never occurs to Menzingen that the demon-worshipper in Rome who wants to eradicate Tradition must have reasons for approving the SSPX (and it certainly couldn't have anything to do with wanting to further dilute the empty shell of the neo-SSPX with liberal bishops, make them even more beholden to modernist Rome, or put Rome at ease because of all the compromises highlighted in my book).

The SSPX has converted to conciliarism, and that has earned them conciliar bishops.

PS: Here's a question nobody is asking: If the SSPX hasn't already beeen approved "in pectore," then why would Rome consecrate bishops for them (i.e., non-Catholics)?  Either this suggests the rumours reported by +Williamson are false, or, we might need to go back and revisit the Argentinian Recognition to understand what really happened there.  Last time I looked, Rome doesn't approve bishops for schismatic communities.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on April 19, 2023, 04:44:22 PM
I’ve been saying for 20 years that Rome has been misplaying his cards; that if they were smart, they’d simply offer the SSPX whatever they wanted, with no strings attached, since all that Fr. Cottier said would still apply:

”Reconciliation Carrie’s within itself it’s own internal dynamism (ie., self-censorship, since one fears to lose what one has finally gained)…what is important is that there no longer be rejection (of conciliarism) in their hearts…we must be patient…gradually, we must expect further steps…”

Of course, today (and really, since at least since the commencement of the branding campaign), there are countless strings attached, which are all to Rome’s advantage (and even if there weren’t, Cottier’s observations would still guarantee the modernist victory.

Of course Bergoglio would not let this cat out of the bag prematurely/publicly, which would be a tactical error (ie., it would give people like me time to sound the alarm).  Better for him to make the Society wait to announce the consecrations until closer to the day, where it is practically a fait accompli, to avoid as much opposition as possible (which will all be drowned out by a barrage of premeditated articles and vids in support).

BUMP.

Connect the dots between the rumor of SSPX episcopal consecrations, and the +Huonder consecration of holy oils.  

The latter makes the former much more likely to be true.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Yeti on April 19, 2023, 05:10:26 PM
I just figured it out, in light of the Huonder consecration of holy oils: The SSPX is preparing the terrain for the acceptance of conciliar-approved and/or conciliar-consecrated bishops.

If the faithful accept the validity of the holy oils, they will accept the validity of a bishop.
.

Interesting point. I guess by now using oils consecrated by a Novus Ordo bishop, they have already done this.

Unfortunately the SSPX faithful has always accepted whatever they have received from the Society.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Ladislaus on April 19, 2023, 05:10:42 PM
BUMP.

Connect the dots between the rumor of SSPX episcopal consecrations, and the +Huonder consecration of holy oils. 

The latter makes the former much more likely to be true.

Does it though?  Hasn't +?Huonder been performing Confirmations already and also offering Mass publicly and distributing Holy Communion that he consecrated?  To me there's a huge leap from +?Huonder consecrating holy oils (not an excommunicable offense) and the SSPX consecrating bishops.

They also seemed to have expunged pictures of +?Huonder in action.  Perhaps this was a trial balloon and they didn't care for the feedback that resulted.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on April 19, 2023, 05:15:03 PM
Another question:

Maybe its not that modernist Rome is approving the SSPX incrementally, but rather, that they are revealing the approval incrementally (ie., which took place "in pectore" years ago)?
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on April 19, 2023, 10:00:49 PM
I had heard this news privately, and began formulating an outline in preparation for an article/analysis, but with too many projects on my desk, abandoned it as just another distraction.  Nevertheless, here are some ideas I would have developed (however, as CI does not allow numbers and/or bulletpoints, the formatting is very jumbled):


  • The SSPX will market the consecrations as the final realization of +Lefebvre's battle (i.e., "He always wanted a bishop to continue Tradition, and now we finally have Rome giving them to us.").
  • But the problems with this ploy are numerous:

    • Once +Lefebvre realized the Romans were negotiating in bad faith, he considered it necessary to consecrate bishops independent of them.
    • He further stated that we must remain separated from this conciliar Church until they come back to the faith (Spiritual Journey).
    • These two aforementioned observations should reasonably pre-empt the SSPX’s anticipated rebuttal that the 2023 consecrations are the fulfillment of +Lefebvre's goal (and secondarily, the anticipated claim that Rome is no longer poorly disposed toward Tradition).
    • But such idiocy must necessarily pass over in silence the hostile actions of BXVI (whom +Ganswein said was always trying to lure the faithful and clergy away from +Lefebvre, and who intended to create a hybrid rite in order to reorient trads toward the conciliar reforms, and also use the hermeneutic of continuity to reorient them toward conciliar doctrine), and of Francis’ recent legislation, who's blatant hostility requires no explanation.
  • The question then becomes, “What can we make of bishops consecrated by a Rome more hostile to Tradition than ever?

    • Obviously, the candidates chosen for consecration will be unknown liberals (they cannot be known liberals, because this would open the operation up to criticism, and expose the Roman strategy).  Nor could such candidates be stalwart traditionalists (if any are still to be found within the SSPX ranks), since this would obviously be contrary to anti-traditionalist Rome’s agenda to dilute, then capture. Tradition.
  • Supposing the aforementioned observations were accurate, would the consecration of bishops represent a win or a loss for Tradition and the recovery of the Church?

    • +Lefebvre famously said that since the Society has everything to lose and nothing to gain, every compromise is a loss.
    • I wrote a book detailing over 100 of these compromises, changes, and contradictions, intended by the SSPX to garner goodwill from modernist Rome (the most conspicuous of which is the relinquishing of combativeness against modernism, instead preferring to collaborate rather than fight it, and naively thinking it can co-exist without qualitative decline and slowly sliding into modernism themselves…despite the compromises just alluded to, which prove the opposite).
  • The final conclusion, therefore, which any prudent traditionalist would have to arrive at, is that the consecration of modernist-approved bishops will materially continue to extend the temporal existence of the SSPX, but only at the expense of cementing and solidifying its conciliar trajectory, which as mentioned necessitates silence in the face of conciliar and Roman errors, and the continued qualitative dilution of its own doctrinal, moral, and liturgical positions.
  • Fr. Cottier (later made a Cardinal after his conquest of Campos) once advised with the psychological shrewdness of the devil, "We must be patient...what is important is that there no longer be rejection in their hearts...gradually, we must expect further steps, such as concelebration..."

    If +Fellay famously said the Society agreed with 95% of Vatican II, and the Society no longer combats the modernist errors of Rome with the same vigor of yesteryear, its a pretty good indication that "rejection (of conciliarism) is no longer in their hearts." 

    The salt has lost its savor...


First the oils, and now a more aggressive Huonder promotion campaign, to prepare the “faithful”

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s-UWYRoHggU&embeds_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cathinfo.com%2F&source_ve_path=MjM4NTE&feature=emb_title 
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: trento on April 19, 2023, 10:26:59 PM
Does it though?  Hasn't +?Huonder been performing Confirmations already and also offering Mass publicly and distributing Holy Communion that he consecrated?  To me there's a huge leap from +?Huonder consecrating holy oils (not an excommunicable offense) and the SSPX consecrating bishops.

They also seemed to have expunged pictures of +?Huonder in action.  Perhaps this was a trial balloon and they didn't care for the feedback that resulted.

I doubt Mgr Huonder will be the sole consecrator for any new SSPX bishops. In the event any consecration of new SSPX bishop(s) takes place, the existing 3 SSPX bishops might be the co-consecrators. Consider what happened for +Rifan of Campos. Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos was the main consecrator but +Rangel was also one of the co-consecrators ensuring validity, though the betrayal of Campos was tragic.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on April 19, 2023, 10:33:52 PM
though the betrayal of Campos was tragic.

Why do you say that?  It’s the same betrayal as the SSPX, only 10 years prior, and for the exact same reasons (just as Le Barroux was 10 years before that)?
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Mr G on April 20, 2023, 08:13:49 AM
BUMP.

I just figured it out, in light of the Huonder consecration of holy oils: The SSPX is preparing the terrain for the acceptance of conciliar-approved and/or conciliar-consecrated bishops.

If the faithful accept the validity of the holy oils, they will accept the validity of a bishop.

"+Lefebvre is victoriuos!" they will declare.
They will also declare "This is the result of the Pope's consecration of Russia and the start of the Period of Peace and restoration of the Church."


From Non Possmus: Non Possumus: IMPORTANT DEVELOPMENTS ARE COMING IN THE NEO-FSSPX (nonpossumus-vcr.blogspot.com) (https://nonpossumus-vcr.blogspot.com/2023/04/vienen-novedades-importantes-en-la-neo.html)

1. Vitus Huoder consecrates (?) the oil at the German seminar of the SSPX.
2. This week, Fr. Pagliarani gave this instruction to the priests of the SSPX: "Begin to prepare the faithful for eventual episcopal consecrations" (Non Possumus cannot reveal the source of this information, but it is certain).
3. The SSPX makes a video about Vitus Huonder, the trailer of which can be seen below. 

(See link for video, it is the same one that is already shown on CathInfo)
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Matthew on April 20, 2023, 09:59:57 AM
"Die grosse Wunde"

I see where we got the word "wound" from -- obviously the German.
And as you'd expect, we also have a higher-end word from the Latin "vulnera" 
If someone is able to be wounded, they're "vulnerable".
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Cornelius935 on April 20, 2023, 02:01:10 PM
They will also declare "This is the result of the Pope's consecration of Russia and the start of the Period of Peace and restoration of the Church."
Yes, the SSPX always appeals to false piety and other false virtues (especially charity and prudence).

I'm willing to bet that they will first call for a worldwide novena / rosary crusade, then proceed to announce the consecration after the tallies. What the faithful will not know or believe is that Menzingen has / will have already settled a deal with Rome about the new bishops, before they even called for the novenas / rosaries.

Then, the consecrations will either be openly approved by Rome, or Rome will refrain from condemning it, perhaps by being ambiguous, perhaps by staying absolutely silent about it (the clerical diplomats from Rome AND Menzingen have no shortage of tricks up their sleeves). Regardless, Huonder's attendance / participation at the consecration will let us know that it is in fact approved by Rome. The new bishops will not work independently of Rome, they will be recognized and they will maintain communication with the Roman offices, they will be prelates of Francis openly or “in pectore”.

Menzingen will then stage a big show of fake thanksgiving to Heaven and to the faithful for their 15 million-or-so rosaries, that (i) they now have new bishops, and that (ii) the consecrations were approved / not condemned by Rome.

Needless to say, I think we can rule out the possibility that the SSPX will consecrate new bishops against Rome's wishes in 2023. Although, like Fr. Chazal said, it would be the greatest blow they can deal to their traditional Catholic critics.
Title: La FSSPX hace un video sobre Vitus Huonder,
Post by: Geremia on April 20, 2023, 07:27:09 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-UWYRoHggU
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Ladislaus on April 20, 2023, 07:50:31 PM
Real "preparation of the faithful" would be to have Mr. Huonder perform some "ordinations".  Of course, SSPX have been doing this indirectly for years by allowing NO presbyters who haven't been conditionally ordained to operate in SSPX chapels.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: User2022 on April 21, 2023, 12:03:11 AM
Canon212 is reporting this from Gloriatv.
https://www.gloria.tv/post/9P9jsw3um3UK6WfY68yema1QU
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: trento on April 21, 2023, 04:33:32 AM
NOTE from Non Possumus:

Non Possumus: CONSECRATION OF NEW BISHOPS IN THE NEO-SSPX (nonpossumus-vcr.blogspot.com) (http://nonpossumus-vcr.blogspot.com/2023/03/consagracion-de-nuevos-obispos-en-la.html)

A reliable source informs us that the Neo-SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year.

If these consecrations are carried out with the permission of liberal, modernist and apostate Rome, or if the new bishops belong to the accordist side; the Fraternity will take a great step towards the abyss.

So it seems Bishop Williamson made a similar claim back in 2019.

https://novusordowatch.org/2019/03/williamson-two-new-sspx-bishops/
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on April 21, 2023, 05:44:00 AM
So it seems Bishop Williamson made a similar claim back in 2019.

https://novusordowatch.org/2019/03/williamson-two-new-sspx-bishops/

The consecrations will be announced in May, performed in June, and take place in Zaitzkofen (where Huonder will no doubt be involved).

PS to Trento:  Can you explain how Rome can approve bishops for a community allegedly not in “full communion” with the Catholic Church?
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on April 21, 2023, 05:56:13 AM
I had heard this news privately, and began formulating an outline in preparation for an article/analysis, but with too many projects on my desk, abandoned it as just another distraction.  Nevertheless, here are some ideas I would have developed (however, as CI does not allow numbers and/or bulletpoints, the formatting is very jumbled):


  • The SSPX will market the consecrations as the final realization of +Lefebvre's battle (i.e., "He always wanted a bishop to continue Tradition, and now we finally have Rome giving them to us.").
  • But the problems with this ploy are numerous:

    • Once +Lefebvre realized the Romans were negotiating in bad faith, he considered it necessary to consecrate bishops independent of them.
    • He further stated that we must remain separated from this conciliar Church until they come back to the faith (Spiritual Journey).
    • These two aforementioned observations should reasonably pre-empt the SSPX’s anticipated rebuttal that the 2023 consecrations are the fulfillment of +Lefebvre's goal (and secondarily, the anticipated claim that Rome is no longer poorly disposed toward Tradition).
    • But such idiocy must necessarily pass over in silence the hostile actions of BXVI (whom +Ganswein said was always trying to lure the faithful and clergy away from +Lefebvre, and who intended to create a hybrid rite in order to reorient trads toward the conciliar reforms, and also use the hermeneutic of continuity to reorient them toward conciliar doctrine), and of Francis’ recent legislation, who's blatant hostility requires no explanation.
  • The question then becomes, “What can we make of bishops consecrated by a Rome more hostile to Tradition than ever?

    • Obviously, the candidates chosen for consecration will be unknown liberals (they cannot be known liberals, because this would open the operation up to criticism, and expose the Roman strategy).  Nor could such candidates be stalwart traditionalists (if any are still to be found within the SSPX ranks), since this would obviously be contrary to anti-traditionalist Rome’s agenda to dilute, then capture. Tradition.
  • Supposing the aforementioned observations were accurate, would the consecration of bishops represent a win or a loss for Tradition and the recovery of the Church?

    • +Lefebvre famously said that since the Society has everything to lose and nothing to gain, every compromise is a loss.
    • I wrote a book detailing over 100 of these compromises, changes, and contradictions, intended by the SSPX to garner goodwill from modernist Rome (the most conspicuous of which is the relinquishing of combativeness against modernism, instead preferring to collaborate rather than fight it, and naively thinking it can co-exist without qualitative decline and slowly sliding into modernism themselves…despite the compromises just alluded to, which prove the opposite).
  • The final conclusion, therefore, which any prudent traditionalist would have to arrive at, is that the consecration of modernist-approved bishops will materially continue to extend the temporal existence of the SSPX, but only at the expense of cementing and solidifying its conciliar trajectory, which as mentioned necessitates silence in the face of conciliar and Roman errors, and the continued qualitative dilution of its own doctrinal, moral, and liturgical positions.
  • Fr. Cottier (later made a Cardinal after his conquest of Campos) once advised with the psychological shrewdness of the devil, "We must be patient...what is important is that there no longer be rejection in their hearts...gradually, we must expect further steps, such as concelebration..."

    If +Fellay famously said the Society agreed with 95% of Vatican II, and the Society no longer combats the modernist errors of Rome with the same vigor of yesteryear, its a pretty good indication that "rejection (of conciliarism) is no longer in their hearts." 

    The salt has lost its savor...


This must not be lost sight of^^^
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Ladislaus on April 21, 2023, 06:10:47 AM
The consecrations will be announced in May, performed in June, and take place in Zaitzkofen (where Huonder will no doubt be involved).

PS to Trento:  Can you explain how Rome can approve bishops for a community allegedly not in “full communion” with the Catholic Church?

There's no need for SSPX to "condition" the faithful about +?Huonder because while he'll likely be a co-consecrator, at least one or two of the valid SSPX bishops will also be involved.  So I'm not buying the connection between Huonder, the holy oils, and a consecration.  I'd be more concerned about Mr. Huonder simulating the ordination of priests and even performing Confirmations (since he was also "ordained" in the New Rite and therefore even doubtfully a priest, much less a bishop).

SSPX have long been foisting dubiously-ordained NO presbyters on the Traditional faithful.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on April 21, 2023, 06:15:20 AM
There's no need for SSPX to "condition" the faithful about +?Huonder because while he'll likely be a co-consecrator, at least one or two of the valid SSPX bishops will also be involved.  So I'm not buying the connection between Huonder, the holy oils, and a consecration.  I'd be more concerned about Mr. Huonder simulating the ordination of priests and even performing Confirmations (since he was also "ordained" in the New Rite and therefore even doubtfully a priest, much less a bishop).

SSPX have long been foisting dubiously-ordained NO presbyters on the Traditional faithful.

Do you have a response to the question posed to Trento?
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Ladislaus on April 21, 2023, 06:18:44 AM
Do you have a response to the question posed to Trento?

It's not realated to my post at all, but Bergoglio could approve based on his great mercifulness, just as he's given jurisdiction for Confessions for the group, saying that he's just being all so merciful and making a concession.

But your question goes against your Huonder narrative even more.  Would Huonder even participate in a consecration that isn't approved by Rome?  I would doubt it.

I just don't buy that the holy oils consecration was some kind of preparation of having Huonder consecrate bishops.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on April 21, 2023, 06:21:05 AM
It's not realated to my post at all, but Bergoglio could approve based on his great mercifulness, just as he's given jurisdiction for Confessions for the group, saying that he's just being all so merciful and making a concession.

But your question goes against your Huonder narrative even more.  Would Huonder even participate in a consecration that isn't approved by Rome?  I would doubt it.

I just don't buy that the holy oils consecration was some kind of preparation of having Huonder consecrate bishops.

Who's arguing the consecrations won't be approved by Rome?

That they ARE approved by Rome is part of the problem.

The question is: How can Francis approves bishops for a non-Catholic community (which, if they really were non-catholic, would could be considered a schismatic act).

Can Francis approve bishops for the Old Catholics?  for the Nestorians?
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Ladislaus on April 21, 2023, 06:43:52 AM
Who's arguing the consecrations won't be approved by Rome?

Isn't that the question you posed to Trento that you wanted me to answer?
Quote
Can you explain how Rome can approve bishops for a community allegedly not in “full communion” with the Catholic Church?

So I answered the question becaused you aske me to.

What kind of game is this?  You challenged me to answer a question, which I did, and then get called out for answering it?
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on April 21, 2023, 06:58:46 AM
Isn't that the question you posed to Trento that you wanted me to answer?
So I answered the question becaused you aske me to.

What kind of game is this?  You challenged me to answer a question, which I did, and then get called out for answering it?

You even quoted the question I posed to Trento, but are confused about the question I asked him??

Nobody is arguing the consecrations will be unapproved, but rather the opposite, but then asking how can Rome do such a thing is the SSPX isn’t allegedly in communion with Rome.

You and I do not communicate well with each other.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Ladislaus on April 21, 2023, 07:04:15 AM
You even quoted the question I posed to Trento, but are confused about the question I asked him??

Nobody is arguing the consecrations will be unapproved, but rather the opposite, but then asking how can Rome do such a thing is the SSPX isn’t allegedly in communion with Rome.

You and I do not communicate well with each other.

I wasn't arguing anything ... just answering the question.  I said that Bergoglio could approve it based on his great mercifulness, even though SSPX are not in "full communion" with Rome.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on April 21, 2023, 07:41:58 AM
I wasn't arguing anything ... just answering the question.  I said that Bergoglio could approve it based on his great mercifulness, even though SSPX are not in "full communion" with Rome.

Does that fly?

Can a Catholic pope approve bishops for (allegedly) condemned non-Catholic groups?

For example, can Francis approve episcopal consecrations for Old Catholics, Nestorians, and other schismatic communities?

And if he did approve bishops for communities not in “full communion” with Rome, would it imply his approval of their errors, and/or thereby even suggest apostasy?
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Mr G on April 21, 2023, 07:45:47 AM

The question is: How can Francis approves bishops for a non-Catholic community (which, if they really were non-catholic, would could be considered a schismatic act).

Can Francis approve bishops for the Old Catholics?  for the Nestorians?
But maybe Jorge considers the SSPX a Catholic Community. Here is what Bishop Hounder said:

An Interview with His Excellency Bishop Vitus Huonder - District of the USA (sspx.org)

 (https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/interview-his-excellency-bishop-vitus-huonder-69007)"And as far as the accusation of schism goes, well, I have an anecdote to tell—you know that I have had many contacts with the Holy Father, also on the subject of the Society. The question of schism was brought up, and the Holy Father himself said on several occasions: “This is not a schismatic community.” Pope Francis himself said this to me during a private audience. I just point that out in passing, also in order to reassure people who keep returning to this subject, or who suffer from this false accusation."
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on April 21, 2023, 07:53:06 AM
But maybe Jorge considers the SSPX a Catholic Community. Here is what Bishop Hounder said:

An Interview with His Excellency Bishop Vitus Huonder - District of the USA (sspx.org)

 (https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/interview-his-excellency-bishop-vitus-huonder-69007)"And as far as the accusation of schism goes, well, I have an anecdote to tell—you know that I have had many contacts with the Holy Father, also on the subject of the Society. The question of schism was brought up, and the Holy Father himself said on several occasions: “This is not a schismatic community.” Pope Francis himself said this to me during a private audience. I just point that out in passing, also in order to reassure people who keep returning to this subject, or who suffer from this false accusation."

You are surely correct, but then what value is “full communion” with Rome, if condemned communities lacking it are nevertheless considered Catholic?

What is to stop Francis from considering Old Catholics or Nestorians “Catholic?”  That would be very ecuмenical of him.

If on paper a group stands condemned, but in Francis’s heart he considers them Catholic anyway, does such emotional communion mean anything? 

If it does, then why worry about a deal on paper, the lifting of excommunication, etc?

And if the next pope does not consider them a Catholic community, do they magically fall back outside “full communion?
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Mr G on April 21, 2023, 08:06:04 AM
You are surely correct, but then what value is “full communion” with Rome, if condemned communities lacking it are nevertheless considered Catholic?

What it to stop Francis from considering Old Catholics or Nestorians “Catholic?”

If on paper a group stands condemned, but in Francis’s heart he considers them Catholic anyway, does such emotional communion mean anything? 

If it does, then why worry about a deal on paper, the lifting of excommunication, etc?
In his mind, I suspect "full communion" is of no value in the Catholic sense, but in the New Religion, "full communion" is all those who tolerate each other and do not condemn (demand their conversion) of the others (jew, muslims, Novus Ordo). So, after enough time for the majority of Catholic to be brainwashed or at least pose no serious threat, then the day might come when Old Catholic and Nestorian are all welcome, provided they all tolerate each other and let everyone live in peace.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: trento on April 21, 2023, 11:40:14 PM
I wasn't arguing anything ... just answering the question.  I said that Bergoglio could approve it based on his great mercifulness, even though SSPX are not in "full communion" with Rome.

My answer would be similar to Lad's. Bergoglio seems to do whatever he pleases without considering the Curia's concerns. The same seems to happens in some dioceses around the world where the diocesan bishops are friendly with the SSPX and allows the SSPX to use diocesan facilities freely.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Minnesota on April 22, 2023, 03:21:24 AM
As always I have my doubts. There should've been new bishops every 10 years or so, not a consecration in 1989 and then crickets and rumors. We will know when it happens, and not a moment sooner.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: BigFLAVA on April 22, 2023, 05:46:37 AM
As always I have my doubts. There should've been new bishops every 10 years or so, not a consecration in 1989 and then crickets and rumors. We will know when it happens, and not a moment sooner.
This seems like a pretty sure thing based on what my source has said also
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Ladislaus on April 22, 2023, 09:06:04 AM
My answer would be similar to Lad's. Bergoglio seems to do whatever he pleases without considering the Curia's concerns. The same seems to happens in some dioceses around the world where the diocesan bishops are friendly with the SSPX and allows the SSPX to use diocesan facilities freely.

Strangely, in some dioceses, such as here in Cleveland, the bishop continues to ignore Bergolgio's reiterated directive that Tridentine Masses no longer be allowed in parish churches.  There are still about a half dozen Tridentine Masses taking place in parish churches in the Cleveland diocese.

But when Bergoglio has gone out of his way to stress that he's just the "Bishop of Rome," the Bishop of Cleveland could rightly assert that the "Bishop of Rome" can't tell the Bishop of Cleveland what to do.  Bergoglio has made a habit of rejecting the authority of prior popes, so why should any bishops respect his "authority" either?  "Your opinion is dulty noted, Jorge, but I'm the bishop here."  This is where collegiality is biting Jorge in the rear end.  After playing the humility and collegiality game (empty rhetoric), Jorge's attempt to strong-arm the Conciliar bishops is falling on deaf ears, and his sudden attempt to re-discover that he's the Supreme Pontiff rings hollow.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: MiracleOfTheSun on April 22, 2023, 09:53:20 AM
The same seems to happens in some dioceses around the world where the diocesan bishops are friendly with the SSPX and allows the SSPX to use diocesan facilities freely.

Does anyone know the number of facilities the SSPX cohabitates in? 
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Geremia on April 22, 2023, 06:37:11 PM
The consecrations will be announced in May, performed in June, and take place in Zaitzkofen (where Huonder will no doubt be involved).
Source?
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Against the Heresies on April 23, 2023, 12:58:26 AM
Zaitzkofen? Certainly not! There's not even remotely enough space for such a ceremony, to name just one reason against the location.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on April 23, 2023, 04:47:35 PM
From a PM:

Hello,
I hope you have had a blessed Easter.
I live in [X] and go to the resistance chapel in
  • .  I had a conversation last night (22nd) with a gentleman, [DELETED TO PRESERVE ANONYMITY]. He said that the prior (or rector, I can not specifically remember) held a meeting with the seminarians and told them that the SSPX was getting new Bishops. The prior did not say when or who. The [deleted] said that they (The SSPX) would announce it soon. [/font][/size][/color]
    I do not believe that the gentleman had any reason to lie to me, but who knows.
    In Christ,

    Xxxcxxc
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: User2022 on April 23, 2023, 06:59:39 PM
I spoke to a SSPX priest today, who just returned from a priests meeting in Winona. He said no bishops in June. He implied that they are preparing for new bishops, but not soon, and definitely not in June. 
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: St Giles on April 23, 2023, 07:02:25 PM
I heard next year is the plan.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Minnesota on April 24, 2023, 02:02:23 PM
I feel as if there'd be more official notice. They are consecrating Fr. Nkamuke from St. Gertrude's as a bishop next week and we have known for a quite a while, as an example.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Geremia on April 29, 2023, 12:56:13 PM
I spoke to a SSPX priest today, who just returned from a priests meeting in Winona. He said no bishops in June. He implied that they are preparing for new bishops, but not soon, and definitely not in June.
I concur. I also spoke with an SSPX priest about this.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Geremia on April 29, 2023, 12:57:01 PM
I heard next year is the plan.
The plan is that if an SSPX bishop comes out of active duty, then it'll be a state of necessity to consecrate new one(s).
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Cryptinox on June 05, 2023, 04:03:49 PM
It has been confirmed false
https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/bishops-sspx-be-consecrated-june-30-2023-83072?fbclid=IwAR1yje2bdhbUX-6f1e6NZqJf4lBuZJBvsnD2X1EqdAhQ-QhzNwP24c9Qx08
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 05, 2023, 04:39:34 PM
It has been confirmed false
https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/bishops-sspx-be-consecrated-june-30-2023-83072?fbclid=IwAR1yje2bdhbUX-6f1e6NZqJf4lBuZJBvsnD2X1EqdAhQ-QhzNwP24c9Qx08

He sure needed lots of words just to say that.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: josefamenendez on June 05, 2023, 04:52:32 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/2DwimsF.png)
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Ladislaus on June 05, 2023, 05:29:39 PM
He sure needed lots of words just to say that.

Indeed.

But it's as I suspected, another false rumor.  So much for the clowns who claimed they had top insider sources.  All those who claimed this should be forever discredited.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 05, 2023, 05:38:22 PM
So much for the clowns who claimed they had top insider sources.  All those who claimed this should be forever discredited.

I suspect that was the purpose of the (deliberate) "leak."
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Plenus Venter on June 05, 2023, 05:41:52 PM
Such a profound analysis of so important a topic. Surely a candidate for next Superior General... or perhaps Bishop...
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Ladislaus on June 05, 2023, 05:42:11 PM
I suspect that was the purpose of the (deliberate) "leak."

I'm thinking of this guy, for instance:

https://twitter.com/JeffCassman/status/1663985975880499226
Quote
An extremely well placed source says multiple priests of the SSPX will be consecrated in June with permission from Pope Francis. Don Davide is among the likely candidates

I'm not buying the deliberate leak nonsense.  These guys were pretending they had "extremely well placed sources" when in point of fact they had nothing more to go on than anyone else.  They had pretensions of being "well connected" to give they impression they are important.

Cassman was sentenced to 4 years in jail for a fraudulent Ponzi scheme and now he's trying to capitalize on his grifting.  This guy was an obvious crook, and now he's posing as some kind of "Catholic influencer" ... not unlike Voris posing as one as well despite his sordid background.

These are the top "influencers" in the Catholic world?
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 05, 2023, 05:52:26 PM
I'm thinking of this guy, for instance:

https://twitter.com/JeffCassman/status/1663985975880499226
I'm not buying the deliberate leak nonsense.  These guys were pretending they had "extremely well placed sources" when in point of fact they had nothing more to go on than anyone else.  They had pretensions of being "well connected" to give they impression they are important.

Cassman was sentenced to 4 years in jail for a fraudulent Ponzi scheme and now he's trying to capitalize on his grifting.  This guy was an obvious crook, and now he's posing as some kind of "Catholic influencer" ... not unlike Voris posing as one as well despite his sordid background.

These are the top "influencers" in the Catholic world?

I wasn’t referring to Cassman.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: De La Fuente on June 05, 2023, 06:40:17 PM
I would not be surprised if it was a deliberate leak.

I first started to believe the story back in April. This is because I heard, at the time, from a seminarian that said the rector at the church he was at had a meeting with all of the students. The rector apparently said that they should prepare for future bishops. At the time I did not have any reason to think that he would make up a story. Looking back on it he only mentioned it after I told him that I was with the Resistance, but it is still hard to be that he would make up a story like that. This happened at a friends Easter party where it was only sspxers, aside from me and my brothers(who are with the Resistance).

Perhaps next year is the plan or perhaps they wanted to see how people would react to the rumors of a Rome approved or disapproved consecration.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Plenus Venter on June 05, 2023, 07:07:10 PM
I would not be surprised if it was a deliberate leak.

I first started to believe the story back in April. This is because I heard, at the time, from a seminarian that said the rector at the church he was at had a meeting with all of the students. The rector apparently said that they should prepare for future bishops. At the time I did not have any reason to think that he would make up a story. Looking back on it he only mentioned it after I told him that I was with the Resistance, but it is still hard to be that he would make up a story like that. This happened at a friends Easter party where it was only sspxers, aside from me and my brothers(who are with the Resistance).

Perhaps next year is the plan or perhaps they wanted to see how people would react to the rumors of a Rome approved or disapproved consecration.
Welcome DLF! Interesting, alright. The source was such that both Bishop Williamson and Fr Trincado called it very trustworthy. Someone is playing games, perhaps in an attempt to discredit the Resistance. It just keeps happening...
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Minnesota on June 05, 2023, 09:25:13 PM
As expected. Think about it: why would something as important as consecrating three bishops be announced with such little notice? If it were to happen.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 05, 2023, 09:31:03 PM
It was a probing leak, to see what the reactions would be, in order to plan a counterintelligence response at the appointed time:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=08X8WpY2VAw&pp=ygUVU2lnbnMgbW92aWUgcmVjcnVpdGVy
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Soubirous on June 06, 2023, 09:20:10 AM
It was a probing leak, to see what the reactions would be, in order to plan a counterintelligence response at the appointed time:

Key line in that clip, re the rumor mongers' strikeout, is that last one spoken: "It felt wrong not to swing." 
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 06, 2023, 10:43:20 AM
Excerpt from an email I sent to a priest (translated into English):


I am convinced the rumor of June episcopal consecrations was a “probing” exercise (otherwise known as a “trial balloon”), which is a military tactic, whereby the enemy’s defenses and reactions are tested, to gauge the level of danger in preparation for the actual attack to come later.

In this case, the Huonder holy oils consecration was the first probe.  Menzingen and Rome observe the reaction.  Then, around the same time, a “leak” regarding episcopal consecrations is permitted.  Once again, Rome and Menzingen observe.  They analyze the arguments of the Resistance, as well as those from within the SSPX.

Rome and Menzingen have thereby accomplished two things (both of which are important tactical victories):


One has to admire the tactical acuмen with which the captors of Tradition operate.”



As a friend mentions, “Cassman and Kennedy must have been pretty confident in their sources to stake their reputations on it.”

The consecrations are coming, but Rome and Menzingen are still conducting the air raid, and have judged that the time for boots on the ground is not yet propitious.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Ladislaus on June 06, 2023, 11:39:47 AM
As a friend mentions, “Cassman and Kennedy must have been pretty confident in their sources to stake their reputations on it.”

Or, more likely, their unimpeachable sources were just getting their information from the same rumor mill that everyone else was.

It takes just one person speculating before, one or two steps into the proverbial "telephone game", it becomes "certainty from highly-placed sources". 

We've had the canonical regularization being imminent now for well over a decade, and that hasn't happened either.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Ladislaus on June 06, 2023, 11:43:05 AM
As expected. Think about it: why would something as important as consecrating three bishops be announced with such little notice? If it were to happen.

Right.  That's what I said about Cassman announcing the June consecration on the last day of May.  There's no way that it would be announced on such short notice, if for nothing else the logistics of allowing various individuals to participate (priests leaving their normal Mass circuits, faithful taking time off from their jobs, people making hotel reservations, etc.)
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 06, 2023, 11:59:27 AM

We've had the canonical regularization being imminent now for well over a decade, and that hasn't happened either.

Not so sure about that.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Matthew on June 06, 2023, 12:34:40 PM
Again, IF and I mean IF this does come to pass, the bishops will be complete Conciliar sellouts. There is no way Rome would permit real Trad bishop(s) to be consecrated.
And we all know with 100% certainty that the SSPX is NOT the SSPX of 1988, fearless and defiant in the face of Modernist Rome's evil wishes.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: De La Fuente on June 06, 2023, 02:40:53 PM
Again, IF and I mean IF this does come to pass, the bishops will be complete Conciliar sellouts. There is no way Rome would permit real Trad bishop(s) to be consecrated.
And we all know with 100% certainty that the SSPX is NOT the SSPX of 1988, fearless and defiant in the face of Modernist Rome's evil wishes.
Yes exactly,
when I talk to people still in the SSPX they don't want to admit that the SSPX is not the same. The most I have gotten is a small recognition of change but then that was followed up with "Bp. Fellay has good intentions".
It is quit interesting to see how Bishop Williamson was correct when he said that the SSPX is going through what could be called a Vatican II B.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Miser Peccator on June 06, 2023, 10:53:18 PM
From

https://twitter.com/AsTheRain1/status/1666054338219786240




“Admit nothing as the truth unless it has been proved to you as such…Indeed, the Blessed Virgin, at the time of the Annunciation, begins by mistrusting…”

Umm…what?






(https://i.imgur.com/A541nX0.png)
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 06, 2023, 10:54:52 PM
From

https://twitter.com/AsTheRain1/status/1666054338219786240




“Admit nothing as the truth unless it has been proved to you as such…Indeed, the Blessed Virgin, at the time of the Annunciation, begins by mistrusting…”

Umm…what?






(https://i.imgur.com/A541nX0.png)


Good catch.

Yeah, that was a bit…………odd.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 18, 2023, 09:57:02 AM
Excerpt from an email I sent to a priest (translated into English):


I am convinced the rumor of June episcopal consecrations was a “probing” exercise (otherwise known as a “trial balloon”), which is a military tactic, whereby the enemy’s defenses and reactions are tested, to gauge the level of danger in preparation for the actual attack to come later.

In this case, the Huonder holy oils consecration was the first probe.  Menzingen and Rome observe the reaction.  Then, around the same time, a “leak” regarding episcopal consecrations is permitted.  Once again, Rome and Menzingen observe.  They analyze the arguments of the Resistance, as well as those from within the SSPX.

Rome and Menzingen have thereby accomplished two things (both of which are important tactical victories):

  • They are ALREADY preparing the faithful for eventual consecrations by keeping the conversation in the public domain and raising expectations for their eventuality (just as +Fellay did by his constant conferences about “relations with Rome”);
  • They now have time to analyze our objections, and prepare counterattacks against them.

One has to admire the tactical acuмen with which the captors of Tradition operate.”



As a friend mentions, “Cassman and Kennedy must have been pretty confident in their sources to stake their reputations on it.”

The consecrations are coming, but Rome and Menzingen are still conducting the air raid, and have judged that the time for boots on the ground is not yet propitious.

On the same subject, Fr. Dominique Rousseau (Resistance in France and Switzerland) has published a short paper making two similar and interesting observations:

1) Regarding the recent denial by Fr. Gleize (SSPX - Econe) of any impending episcopal consecrations on June 30, Fr. Rousseau says that it is Fr. Gleize himself who is fibbing in his satirical denial, since on no occassion did any Resistance source ever advance June 30 as a date for consecrations!  Fr. Gleize seems to have pulled this date out of thin air, only to attack a reported date never made by a Resistance source!

2) He also concurs with me that the Huonder holy oil consecrations were a probe/trial balloon, and that because of discreet but real resistance by SSPX priests to the use of these questionable oils (some of whom are now turning to Avrille, +Faure, and Econe for alternative sourcing), +Huonder will not be present at the June 29th Econe priestly ordinations.  So the General House is stepping back, and going into "reasssurance mode" (as it has so many times in the last 15 years: two steps forward, one step back."

Regarding this technique, I once wrote:


"At particularly delicate times for the “ralliement” process of the absorption of the SSPX into conciliarism (i.e., times when revolt within the SSPX threatens to break through any containment or suppression effort), Bishop Fellay tells the world that all negotiation has fallen flat, in order to try and dissipate the outrage, and regroup.

In the summer of 2012, we had the “Letter of the Three Bishops” to Bishop Fellay and the General Counsel (and the scandalous response of the latter), shortly before a General Chapter which threatened to displace the Vatican’s man inside the SSPX (for, as Rome has said of him, “Bishop Fellay is a man we can deal with”).

Consequently, in order to salvage the capture of the SSPX, Rome backed off the accord, and Bishop Fellay announced:

“There has been a lot of back and forth, exchanges, letters and protests, but we are back to square one.”
-Bishop Fellay (Ordination Sermon, Econe, 6/29/12)
Since the 2012 “square one” ploy, we learned that the SSPX had gained jurisdiction to try its own priests in some instances; jurisdiction to hear confessions; approval to ordain priests; lost one bishop and two district superiors and several formerly allied religious communities; gained endorsements from modernist conciliar bishops and cardinals (e.g., Schneider and Brandmuller); met with the Pope personally in Rome; endorsed the sellout accord which has been on the table for years; tried to calm the nerves of parishioners and laity by claiming that such a gesture could not possibly be a trap; etc., etc.
And for the most part, the suckers (clereical and lay) have swallowed it all, hook, line, and sinker.
Now comes the latest crisis over diocesan regulated marriages in SSPX chapels (which subject both clergy and laity to diocesan control and influence).  In France, marriages are rejected by some SSPX priests when couples reject the diocesan delegation; Menzingen has had to go quietly over the heads of the local pastors to avoid opposition, and obtain these delegations for all these marriages at the District level (which is how your SSPX pastor can look you in the eye, and tell you he “has received no instruction in this regard from his superiors:” They are being circuмvented).
Yet, discord continued to grow, so Bishop Fellay went back to his favorite ordinations day speech:
“It is like in the Game of the Goose. We were almost at the end and then we landed on the ‘go back to start’ square. Everything has fallen to the ground, it is necessary to begin again from square one.”
-Bishop Fellay (After ordination luncheon, Econe, 6/29/17)
When Bishop Fellay says we are back to square one, you had better hold onto your hat: It means either that the deal is almost completed (and it is, if only Bishop Fellay could betray enough of Tradition to modernist Rome to convince them to accept his signature), or, that a deluge of “progress” is about to decapitate those who have dared to stick their necks out.
“Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.”
Bishop Williamson has observed that the crisis in the SSPX resembles in all aspects the crisis in the Church after Vatican II.
One aspect in that analogy which ought not be lost sight of is this:
If it was said of the Church after the council that it was betrayed by those who should have defended it, then surely the same thing applies to the fate of the SSPX (and all those who believe we are “back to square one”).
But as I read somewhere recently (I cannot recall the citation, but the observation is not my own), we are only back to square one when Menzingen rejects ordinary jurisdiction for confession; rejects the pastoral guidelines for marriages; repeals the 2012 General Chapter Declaration; reaffirms there can be no accord with Rome before it returns to the Faith; reinstates Bishop Williamson and all those it expelled; etc. etc. etc.
If you really believe the SSPX is back to square one in the ralliement process, you are a sucker.
Just as the crisis in the Church cannot be healed until Rome surrenders the false doctrines of Vatican II, and recovers its tradition, neither can the crisis in the SSPX be overcome until it retraces its steps, jettisons all its compromised positions, and re-embraces the tradition it has jettisoned.
But anyone should be able to see that this is nowhere near happening, and quite the contrary, all the momentum in Menzingen is heading in the opposite direction.
Back to square one?
They have a word for people who allow themselves to believe such fairy tales."

https://sodalitium-pianum.com/back-to-square-one/


PS: For those who would like to read Fr. Rousseau's short article, here is the link: https://en.saintjoseph-tradition.org/_files/ugd/543a53_355bfb2f5cca469ab117675af033fc46.pdf 
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Ladislaus on June 18, 2023, 10:08:04 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/A541nX0.png)

Absolutely unbelievable ... and blasphemous.  Our Lady didn't mistrust anything.  She simply didn't understand initially how it would be possible for her to conceive when she had already vowed lifelong virginity to God.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Ladislaus on June 18, 2023, 10:09:43 AM
1) Regarding the recent denial by Fr. Gleize (SSPX - Econe) of any impending episcopal consecrations on June 30, Fr. Rousseau says that it is Fr. Gleize himself who is fibbing in his satirical denial, since on no occassion did any Resistance source ever advance June 30 as a date for consecrations!  Fr. Gleize seems to have pulled this date out of thin air, only to attack a reported date never made by a Resistance source!

Not June 30 per se, but the month of June for sure.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 18, 2023, 10:12:49 AM
Not June 30 per se, but the month of June for sure.

Right, but Fr. Gleize made up the June 30 date out of thin air.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Ladislaus on June 18, 2023, 10:18:16 AM
Right, but Fr. Gleize made up the June 30 date out of thin air.

Yeah, I had never heard that date before.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: SimpleMan on June 18, 2023, 11:19:24 AM
We will know more once June 30 comes and passes.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Kephapaulos on June 18, 2023, 09:49:19 PM
I did not care for the poetry of the SSPX response. There was no need for it. A simple statement would have been just fine if they wanted to dispel rumors, even though they may have wanted to have some fun. It just also did not seem like they were taking the situation seriously. 
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: AMDGJMJ on June 19, 2023, 06:55:33 AM
I did not care for the poetry of the SSPX response. There was no need for it. A simple statement would have been just fine if they wanted to dispel rumors, even though they may have wanted to have some fun. It just also did not seem like they were taking the situation seriously.
Their long response rather than a short one actually makes one wonder if there might be some truth in the rumors... 😅
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Ladislaus on June 19, 2023, 06:57:39 AM
I did not care for the poetry of the SSPX response. There was no need for it. A simple statement would have been just fine if they wanted to dispel rumors, even though they may have wanted to have some fun. It just also did not seem like they were taking the situation seriously.

That was rather, strange, wasn't it ... seeming to come from an imbalanced mind.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Ladislaus on June 19, 2023, 06:58:34 AM
Their long response rather than a short one actually makes one wonder if there might be some truth in the rumors... 😅

I don't think the rumors are true.  Given how much time he spent rubbing people's noses in the false rumors, this would backfire on him and make him look like a foot of they turned out to be true afterall.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Texana on June 19, 2023, 11:38:52 AM
I don't think the rumors are true.  Given how much time he spent rubbing people's noses in the false rumors, this would backfire on him and make him look like a foot of they turned out to be true afterall.
Too late about the "fool" part.  He doth protest too much...?
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Minnesota on June 19, 2023, 01:32:20 PM
I know they're false.

The 30th is next week. If you've seen a bishop consecration, they're big deals. They're very long. They're costly. They're elaborate. They're some of the most complex non-Papal liturgies the Roman Rite has, just behind church consecrations. And for THREE bishops? No one would have this short of notice.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: andy on July 15, 2023, 06:02:51 PM
I know they're false.

The 30th is next week. If you've seen a bishop consecration, they're big deals. They're very long. They're costly. They're elaborate. They're some of the most complex non-Papal liturgies the Roman Rite has, just behind church consecrations. And for THREE bishops? No one would have this short of notice.

Obviously the message is that they actively work on the consecration of bishops, but not in June. Is it so hard to read in between of lines?
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Matthew on October 08, 2024, 04:59:50 PM
Bump
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: Geremia on October 08, 2024, 06:43:22 PM
+Tissier's death (RIP) is a moment of truth for the SSPX. Either they rejoin +Williamson et al. bishops / ++Viganò or become completely Novus Ordoized.
Title: Re: SSPX will consecrate three bishops in June of this year ???
Post by: trento on October 08, 2024, 11:45:23 PM
+Tissier's death (RIP) is a moment of truth for the SSPX. Either they rejoin +Williamson et al. bishops / ++Viganò or become completely Novus Ordoized.
I think it is more probable that they consecrate their own bishops than to get involved with +Williamson's line.