Author Topic: SSPX - Why a Deal Now with Pope Francis? (Read 5772 times)

Last Tradhican · « **on:** September 13, 2016, 12:33:49 AM »

Quote from: RogerThat

Quote from: Last Tradhican
Quote from: Last Tradhican
The only difference between today and the 1970's is that today the evil in Rome is totally obvious to everyone (Bergolio is in the raw, unlike JPII & B16 that could fool the people), so why would a son of Abp. Lefebvre want to join Rome now?

The big question for supporters of the deal: Why do you want a deal NOW that Bergolio is the "pope"?

It is not so much WANTING a deal; it is more about having a deal that we rightly deserve on paper, officially. Also, this official structure in the church would ease the minds of many people that think the SSPX is schismatic (which it is not) or celebrates invalid confessions (which it does not). One cannot ignore Rome completely and claim to be Catholic. The history of the church is filled with great Popes, saints, and terrible popes who have destroyed the faith. Nonetheless, the Rome is Rome, the Rome of St. Pius and John XII, St. Pius V and Stephen VI, Alexander VI and Francis. Pope Francis has little to do with the equation. It has more to do with getting the terms that the superiors deem necessary and sufficient for the continued apostate of the Society which is "to preserve the Catholic Faith in its fullness and purity, to teach its truths, and to diffuse its virtues, especially through the Roman Catholic priesthood" nothing more, nothing less.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #1 on:** September 13, 2016, 12:36:39 AM »

Interesting that you made the mistake of writing the continued apostate of the Society which is "to preserve the Catholic Faith in its fullness and purity, to teach its truths, and to diffuse its virtues, especially through the Roman Catholic priesthood".

Prior to the conciliar popes, I do not know of any popes in the history of the Church, who destroyed the faith. Curious too that you should say destroyed the faith.

Why would you want "a deal that we rightly deserve on paper, officially" from a pope and hierarchy that destroyed the faith? It is like a faithful wife and mother of 10 children asking her husband who fooled around all through their wedded life and divorced her and left her to raise the children, to write a letter stating that she was a good and faithful wife.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #2 on:** September 13, 2016, 12:58:28 AM »

Quote

One cannot ignore Rome completely and claim to be Catholic.

That is the fence that divides. I would think that with Bergolio the Modernist Progressivist in the Raw, the SSPXers would become sede of some sort, rather than join his conciliar church. What a waste of time, they should have joined with the Fraternity of St. Peter or the Campos, Brazil group Personal Apostolic Administration of Saint John Mary Vianney.

Declaration of Bishop Fellay concerning the priests of Campos
http://www.fsspx.com/Communicantes/Apr2002/Campos.htm

snowball · « **Reply #3 on:** September 13, 2016, 01:00:41 PM »

Bishop Fellay explained why a deal is more likely.
He addresses this question in detail, have you
listened ?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZAyK-nfVCIdn1gLsCXGIkg

When Bergoglio was Ab. of Buenos Aires, he attempted to
grant SSPX recognition (as demanded by the Argentinian gov)
as a Catholic institution. Bergoglio's recognition was overriden
by the papal nuncio. Bergoglio believes the SSPX are Catholic,
and despite their beliefs about V2 et cetera, they are part of
the Catholic Church.

ihsv · « **Reply #4 on:** September 13, 2016, 01:50:10 PM »

Quote from: snowball

...
Bergoglio believes the SSPX are Catholic,
and despite their beliefs about V2 et cetera, they are part of
the Catholic Church.

Intriguing. Bergoglio believes the same thing of the Orthodox, Lutherans, etc.

Just an observation.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #5 on:** September 13, 2016, 04:26:57 PM »

Quote from: snowball

Quote from: Last Tradhican
Why now a deal now with Pope Francis?
Bishop Fellay explained why a deal is more likely.
He addresses this question in detail, have you
listened ?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZAyK-nfVCIdn1gLsCXGIkg

When Bergoglio was Ab. of Buenos Aires, he attempted to
grant SSPX recognition (as demanded by the Argentinian gov)
as a Catholic institution. Bergoglio's recognition was overriden
by the papal nuncio. Bergoglio believes the SSPX are Catholic,
and despite their beliefs about V2 et cetera, they are part of
the Catholic Church.

So, your response is that the reason for a deal now and not with Paul VI. JPII, or B16 is because when Bergoglio was Ab. of Buenos Aires, he attempted to
grant SSPX recognition.

Pretty lame.

RogerThat · « **Reply #6 on:** September 14, 2016, 12:29:37 AM »

Honestly, I am convinced of one thing.
Without Our Lord and Our Lady's divine assistance, the SSPX would not be in existence today. Our Lord hath willed it that the Society grow, increasing the number of brave men who are worthy to offer sacrifice, praise, and glory to God through a valid mass that is pleasing to Him. For "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit." Our Lord has guided the Society through much harder times and has willed her to grow and plant the seeds of Faith and Truth in the hearts of man, both religious and lay, both young and old, on every continent of God's beautiful Earth. We will pray, and watch, and see. Should the new structure of SSPX be pleasing to God, He will continue to grant the graces necessary to bear the challenging, yet honorable, yolk of preserving "la foi toujours" as Mons. Lefevbre would say. The conciliar church is dying, closing churches, seminaries, hospitals, schools while the Society is building chapels, a new seminary, new schools, new mass mass centers all across the world. Should the new structure be acceptable to God, He will continue to shower His blessings and preserve the Society and allow it to continue its ministry. If not, the Society will shrink and die. We will pray and see.

mw2016 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 14, 2016, 12:36:31 AM »

Quote from: ihsv

Quote from: snowball

...
Bergoglio believes the SSPX are Catholic,
and despite their beliefs about V2 et cetera, they are part of
the Catholic Church.

Intriguing. Bergoglio believes the same thing of the Orthodox, Lutherans, etc.

Just an observation.

Irony. It's what's for dinner.

mw2016 · « **Reply #8 on:** September 14, 2016, 12:41:37 AM »

Quote from: RogerThat

Honestly, I am convinced of one thing.
Without Our Lord and Our Lady's divine assistance, the SSPX would not be in existence today. Our Lord hath willed it that the Society grow, increasing the number of brave men who are worthy to offer sacrifice, praise, and glory to God through a valid mass that is pleasing to Him. For "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit." Our Lord has guided the Society through much harder times and has willed her to grow and plant the seeds of Faith and Truth in the hearts of man, both religious and lay, both young and old, on every continent of God's beautiful Earth.

I agree.

However, I am equally convinced that the Society has been struck by God.

In the Bible Our Lord speaks of the shepherd being struck and the sheep being scattered. This is plain to see in the overall Church, as it happened since VII.

But, I believe it also happened to the Society in 2012. The shepherd was struck and the sheep have scattered. The Society is now dying. It is not recognizable as the place/group it once was in so many ways, both obvious and subtle. That much I am thoroughly convinced of.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #9 on:** September 14, 2016, 01:47:34 AM »

Quote from: RogerThat

the Society is building chapels, a new seminary, new schools, new mass mass centers all across the world.

I think your assessment is outdated. Anyone can take a single, huge donation and build a monument, but it takes more wide-spread approval to keep up with overall growth and right now the SSPX -- at least in the US -- has a moratorium on new building projects. The Phoenix fiasco has affected the entire district.

RogerThat · « **Reply #10 on:** September 14, 2016, 02:58:23 AM »

Quote from: mw2016

Quote from: RogerThat
Honestly, I am convinced of one thing.
Without Our Lord and Our Lady's divine assistance, the SSPX would not be in existence today. Our Lord hath willed it that the Society grow, increasing the number of brave men who are worthy to offer sacrifice, praise, and glory to God through a valid mass that is pleasing to Him. For "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit." Our Lord has guided the Society through much harder times and has willed her to grow and plant the seeds of Faith and Truth in the hearts of man, both religious and lay, both young and old, on every continent of God's beautiful Earth.

I agree.

However, I am equally convinced that the Society has been struck by God.

In the Bible Our Lord speaks of the shepherd being struck and the sheep being scattered. This is plain to see in the overall Church, as it happened since VII.

But, I believe it also happened to the Society in 2012. The shepherd was struck and the sheep have scattered. The Society is now dying. It is not recognizable as the place/group it once was in so many ways, both obvious and subtle. That much I am thoroughly convinced of.

How is the Society dying?
Our Lord is calling more men to serve him through the Society than any time in the past 2 decades.
Are there changes? yes, perhaps. BUT so has man, so have the congregations.
The newer generation that is filling the pews of Society chapels, in my opinion, from what I have seen, have a much more "evangelistic" spirit, this missionary-like zeal to attract more people to the Faith and teach people about Christ and bring them to Tradition. However, the irregular position of the Society is a huge handicap to this. I have dozens of friends and family members that doubt the validity of the confessions of SSPX priests and for this reason alone do not come with to my sspx parish. The list goes on and on.
The church is truly in a very odd place right now. Rome is a mess, the world is a mess, people are in a mess. Some of it has, unfortunately, creeped into the Society. We all live in the same world. The SSPX is not perfect and neither is it an intact ship that somehow flying over the hurricane. The society lives the problems of the world too. The Society, the Church, is divine but it is composed of sinners, humans.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #11 on:** September 14, 2016, 04:36:54 AM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican

Interesting that you made the mistake of writing the continued apostate of the Society which is "to preserve the Catholic Faith in its fullness and purity, to teach its truths, and to diffuse its virtues, especially through the Roman Catholic priesthood".

Prior to the conciliar popes, I do not know of any popes in the history of the Church, who destroyed the faith. Curious too that you should say destroyed the faith.

Why would you want "a deal that we rightly deserve on paper, officially" from a pope and hierarchy that destroyed the faith? It is like a faithful wife and mother of 10 children asking her husband who fooled around all through their wedded life and divorced her and left her to raise the children, to write a letter stating that she was a good and faithful wife.

Here's another answer to Why a Deal with Rome now:

Quote from: RogerThat

the irregular position of the Society is a huge handicap to this. I have dozens of friends and family members that doubt the validity of the confessions of SSPX priests and for this reason alone do not come with to my sspx parish.

However, this does not answer why the now with Bergolio the modernist progressivist in the raw, for that reason, this deal could have been done with Paul VI, JPII, B16.

So far all I see is the slow boiling of the SSPX hierarchy and those in agreement with them, and young people who never really were SSPXers in the mold of those that started the SSPX chapels (all independent people, who later gave it over to the SSPX). I see young people who want to be popular with the world.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #12 on:** September 14, 2016, 08:42:04 AM »

Quote

I see young people who want to be popular with the world.

This 1000%. Group think, peer pressure, popularity contest - whatever you want to call it. If you think the Baby Boomer generation never grew up, watch out for their children!

hollingsworth · « **Reply #13 on:** September 15, 2016, 09:43:47 AM »

MW:

Quote

However, I am equally convinced that the Society has been struck by God.

In the Bible Our Lord speaks of the shepherd being struck and the sheep being scattered. This is plain to see in the overall Church, as it happened since VII.

But, I believe it also happened to the Society in 2012. The shepherd was struck and the sheep have scattered. The Society is now dying. It is not recognizable as the place/group it once was in so many ways, both obvious and subtle. That much I am thoroughly convinced of.

I too am convinced, MW. The Society is DOA, no matter how many new priest candidates may be enlisting; and no matter how many new building projects are on the horizon; and no matter how much Menzingen's stocks portfolios and property acquisitions may be growing.

Three things mark the precipitate decline and fall of SSPX, IMO

1) +Felllay's failure to conduct the second Rosary Crusade for the Consecration of Russia in 2008, in disobedience to Our Lady's specific request.

2) H.E. +Williamsons's unjust expulsion from the Society in 2012, and the subsequent cowardly acquiescence of the other two Society bishops.

3) And perhaps most importantly, Menzingen's virtual abandonment of the original mission of SSPX's founder, Abp. Lefebvfe.

mw2016 · « **Reply #14 on:** September 15, 2016, 12:43:03 PM »

Quote from: RogerThat

How is the Society dying?
Our Lord is calling more men to serve him through the Society than any time in the past 2 decades.
Are there changes? yes, perhaps

The changes are why it is dying.

It is rotting from the top down.

Bp. Fellay's poor leadership lost him many priests. He will lose more priests once the deal is announced.

More importantly, Bp. Fellay's poor leadership lost him the trust of the faithful, which really cannot be regained.

The Society is not growing since 2012. The number of priest candidates remains the same: 7-10 ordained each year. The parishes have lost great numbers of long-term parishioners, while gaining a few N.O. curiosity seekers - therefore, making membership stagnant.