Catholic Info

Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: SeanJohnson on July 09, 2019, 02:50:45 PM

Title: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: SeanJohnson on July 09, 2019, 02:50:45 PM
Last week, I posted about the Angelus Press ecuмenical conference (featuring semi-effeminate Theology of the Body expert, Fr. (?) Sean Kilcawley).

But wait, there's more!

There has to be reciprocity, you see!

Therefore, I give you the Catholic Identity Conference lineup!!!

Speakers
  • HOME (https://catholicidentityconference.org/index.php)
  • [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.8)]SPEAKERS[/color]


ALL SPEAKERS

(https://catholicidentityconference.org/images/speakers/schneider.jpg)
[color][size][font]
BISHOP ATHANASIUS SCHNEIDER (https://catholicidentityconference.org/index.php/speakers/speaker/23-bishop-athanasius-schneider)
Auxiliary Bishop of Astana, Kazakhstan
(https://catholicidentityconference.org/images/speakers/Michael-Matt-head-shot.jpg)[/font][/size][/color][color][size][font]
MICHAEL MATT (https://catholicidentityconference.org/index.php/speakers/speaker/26-michael-matt)
Editor, The Remnant; Host of Remnant Underground
(https://catholicidentityconference.org/images/Mosher.jpg)[/font][/size][/color][color][size][font]
STEVE MOSHER (https://catholicidentityconference.org/index.php/speakers/speaker/32-steve-mosher)
President, Population Research Institute
(https://catholicidentityconference.org/images/speakers/diane-montagna.jpg)[/font][/size][/color][color][size][font]
DIANE MONTAGNA (https://catholicidentityconference.org/index.php/speakers/speaker/29-diane-montagna)
Rome Correspondent, LifesiteNews
(https://catholicidentityconference.org/images/2019/t-marshall.jpg)[/font][/size][/color][color][size][font]
TAYLOR MARSHALL, PH.D. (https://catholicidentityconference.org/index.php/speakers/speaker/30-taylor-marshall-phd)
Founder of New Saint Thomas Institute
Founder of Troops of Saint George

(https://catholicidentityconference.org/images/Fr.-Wegner.jpg)
FR. JÜRGEN WEGNER (https://catholicidentityconference.org/index.php/speakers/speaker/31-fr-juergen-wegner)
United States District of the Society of St. Pius X
(https://catholicidentityconference.org/images/speakers/Chris-Ferrara.jpg)
CHRISTOPHER FERRARA (https://catholicidentityconference.org/index.php/speakers/speaker/19-christopher-ferrara)
President of American Catholic Lawyers, Inc.
 

(https://catholicidentityconference.org/images/speakers/Chorbishop.jpg)[/font][/size][/color][color][size][font]
CHORBISHOP ANTHONY SPINOSA (https://catholicidentityconference.org/index.php/speakers/speaker/18-chorbishop-anthony-spinosa)
Rector/Protopresbyter at Basilica and National Shrine of Our Lady of Lebanon
(https://catholicidentityconference.org/images/speakers/Fr-Pendergraft-head.jpg)
FR. GREGORY PENDERGRAFT, FSSP (https://catholicidentityconference.org/index.php/speakers/speaker/5-fr-gregory-pendergraft-fssp)
Pastor of St. Stephan of Hungary Latin Mass Parish
(https://catholicidentityconference.org/images/speakers/father-beaugrand.jpg)[/font][/size][/color][color][size][font]
FR. HUGUES BEAUGRAND, IBP (https://catholicidentityconference.org/index.php/speakers/speaker/27-fr-hugues-beaugrand-ibp)

(https://catholicidentityconference.org/images/speakers/MoreSpeakers.jpg)
MORE SPEAKERS COMING SOON (https://catholicidentityconference.org/index.php/speakers/speaker/24-more-speakers-coming-soon)
Sign up for email notifications when new speakers are added[/font][/size][/color]
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: SeanJohnson on July 09, 2019, 02:56:03 PM
Dear CIC-

If you are looking for more speakers, I am available!

My topic will be:

1) Why Archbishop Lefebvre condemned tradcuмenical gatherings like the CIC;

2) Why Archbishop Lefebvre said the rallied communities betrayed Tradition and were "doing the work of the devil;"

3) Why every conciliarist of whatever stripe has compromised the faith, and objectively speaking, does not possess the Catholic faith.

The US District and Michael Matt know how to get ahold of me!
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: homeschoolmom on July 09, 2019, 04:50:46 PM
Could you post a few bullet points on the subject here? A lot of people think this is great because it's more exposure for the Society which will inevitably grow tradition. This must be what the leadership has in mind too. My gut and my instincts say that's not how it works in the real world, that there is something false about it. But I don't think I could explain it well if asked.
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: BarbaraZ on July 09, 2019, 05:11:56 PM
Thank you, Sean, for your posts!

Yes, please post some words from the Archbishop!  

Modernism and the Catholicism cannot live in harmony and preach alongside one another. 

Hoping you are invited to speak!    ;)
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: SeanJohnson on July 09, 2019, 06:24:35 PM
Hello HSM and Barbara: 

I would refer you to posts 19 and 34 in the CCCC thread.

Excerpt from #19:

Archbishop Lefebvre considered collaboration with the rallied/approved once-traditional groups like the FSSP or IBP impossible:

"And we must not waver for one moment either in not being with those who are in the process of betraying us. Some people are always admiring the grass in the neighbor's field. Instead of looking to their friends, to the Church's defenders, to those fighting on the battlefield, they look to our enemies on the other side. "After all, we must be charitable, we must be kind, we must not be divisive, after all, they are celebrating the Tridentine Mass, they are not as bad as everyone says"—but they are betraying us—betraying us! They are shaking hands with the Church's destroyers. They are shaking hands with people holding modernist and liberal ideas condemned by the Church. So they are doing the devil's work.

Thus those who were with us and were working with us for the rights of Our Lord, for the salvation of souls, are now saying, "So long as they grant us the old Mass, we can shake hands with Rome, no problem." But we are seeing how it works out. They are in an impossible situation. Impossible. One cannot both shake hands with modernists and keep following Tradition. Not possible. Not possible.

Now, stay in touch with them to bring them back, to convert them to Tradition, yes, if you like, that's the right kind of ecuмenism! But give the impression that after all one almost regrets any break, that one likes talking to them? No way! These are people who call us corpse-like traditionalists, they are saying that we are as rigid as corpses, ours is not a living Tradition, we are glum-faced, ours is a glum Tradition! Unbelievable! Unimaginable! What kind of relations can you have with people like that?"
http://sspx.org/en/two-years-after-consecrations (http://sspx.org/en/two-years-after-consecrations)


Excerpt from #34:

Archbishop Lefebvre and the old SSPX pulled no punches in teaching the faithful why the Ecclesia Dei communities had sold out the fight for tradition, and that therefore we ought not to attend their Masses:

"The Fraternity of St. Peter is founded upon more than questionable principles, for the following reasons:

Quote
Quote
  • to take away the Mass of all time (for the Novus Ordo Missae is not another form of this, question 5 (http://archives.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q5_novus_ordo_missae.htm)),
  • to grant it to those only who accept the same Conciliar Church’s novel orientations (in life, belief, structures),
  • to declare non-Catholic those who deny this by word or deed (An interpretation of "Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism [of Archbishop Lefebvre] is a grave offense against God and carries the penalty of excommunication." Ecclesia Dei Afflicata), and,
  • to professes itself in a certain way in communion with anyone calling himself “Christian,” and yet to declare itself out of communion with Catholics whose sole crime is wanting to remain Catholic (Vatican II, e.g., Lumen Gentium, §15; Unitatis Redintegratio §3).


Quote
Quote
  • they reject the Novus Ordo Missae only because it is not their “spirituality” and claim the traditional Latin Mass only in virtue of their “charism” acknowledged them by the pope,
  • they seek to ingratiate themselves with the local bishops, praising them for the least sign of Catholic spirit and keeping quiet on their modernist deviations (unless perhaps it is a question of a diocese where they have no hopes of starting up), even though by doing so they end up encouraging them along their wrong path, and
  • note, for example, the Fraternity’s whole-hearted acceptance of the (New) Catechism of the Catholic Church (question 14 (http://archives.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q14_new_catechism.htm)), acceptance of Novus Ordo professors in their seminaries, and blanket acceptance of Vatican II’s orthodoxy (question 6 (http://archives.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q6_vatican_ii.htm)).

They are therefore Conciliar Catholics and not traditional Catholics.

This being so, attending their Mass is:
    - accepting the compromise on which they are based,
    - accepting the direction taken by the Conciliar Church and the consequent destruction of the Catholic Faith and practices, and
    - accepting, in particular, the lawfulness and doctrinal soundness of the Novus Ordo Missae and Vatican II.


That is why a Catholic ought not to attend their Masses."
http://archives.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q13_fraternity_of_st_peter.htm (http://archives.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q13_fraternity_of_st_peter.htm)

But that was the SSPX before the ralliement (or rather, before the ralliement was made public!).

Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: SeanJohnson on July 09, 2019, 06:51:49 PM
Hello HSM and Barbara:

I would refer you to posts 19 and 34 in the CCCC thread.

Excerpt from #19:

Archbishop Lefebvre considered collaboration with the rallied/approved once-traditional groups like the FSSP or IBP impossible:

"And we must not waver for one moment either in not being with those who are in the process of betraying us. Some people are always admiring the grass in the neighbor's field. Instead of looking to their friends, to the Church's defenders, to those fighting on the battlefield, they look to our enemies on the other side. "After all, we must be charitable, we must be kind, we must not be divisive, after all, they are celebrating the Tridentine Mass, they are not as bad as everyone says"—but they are betraying us—betraying us! They are shaking hands with the Church's destroyers. They are shaking hands with people holding modernist and liberal ideas condemned by the Church. So they are doing the devil's work.

Thus those who were with us and were working with us for the rights of Our Lord, for the salvation of souls, are now saying, "So long as they grant us the old Mass, we can shake hands with Rome, no problem." But we are seeing how it works out. They are in an impossible situation. Impossible. One cannot both shake hands with modernists and keep following Tradition. Not possible. Not possible.

Now, stay in touch with them to bring them back, to convert them to Tradition, yes, if you like, that's the right kind of ecuмenism! But give the impression that after all one almost regrets any break, that one likes talking to them? No way! These are people who call us corpse-like traditionalists, they are saying that we are as rigid as corpses, ours is not a living Tradition, we are glum-faced, ours is a glum Tradition! Unbelievable! Unimaginable! What kind of relations can you have with people like that?"
http://sspx.org/en/two-years-after-consecrations (http://sspx.org/en/two-years-after-consecrations)


Excerpt from #34:

Archbishop Lefebvre and the old SSPX pulled no punches in teaching the faithful why the Ecclesia Dei communities had sold out the fight for tradition, and that therefore we ought not to attend their Masses:

"The Fraternity of St. Peter is founded upon more than questionable principles, for the following reasons:

Quote

Quote
They are therefore Conciliar Catholics and not traditional Catholics.

This being so, attending their Mass is:
  - accepting the compromise on which they are based,
    - accepting the direction taken by the Conciliar Church and the consequent destruction of the Catholic Faith and practices, and
    - accepting, in particular, the lawfulness and doctrinal soundness of the Novus Ordo Missae and Vatican II.


That is why a Catholic ought not to attend their Masses."
http://archives.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q13_fraternity_of_st_peter.htm (http://archives.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q13_fraternity_of_st_peter.htm)

But that was the SSPX before the ralliement (or rather, before the ralliement was made public!).
And then there is this letter from Archbishop Lefebvre (and how well it describes the SSPX of the last several years!!):

A Letter from Archbishop Lefebvre, regarding Indult Masses
Let us put this docuмent in context:  It was written several months after “Operation Survival,” the consecration of the four bishops on 30 June 1988, which was accomplished not only without the approval of Pope John Paul II, but also against his will. The Fraternity of St. Peter was created the day following the consecrations, and conciliar Rome was busy trying to ‘pull in’ the more or less traditional Catholics.
It is always good to reread Archbishop Lefebvre, particularly in order to understand that beyond some conciliatory steps and words towards the supreme authority (of the Church), he was not fooled.  He was well aware of the Fight for the Faith that (unfortunately) it was necessary to lead against this authority.
Here is the text of his letter [bold emphasis is added by us]:

"Saint-Michel en Brenne, 18 March 1989
I am responding immediately to your kind letter which I received yesterday at Saint-Michel1 (http://www.dominicansavrille.us/indult-masses-archbishop-lefebvre-think/#sdfootnote1sym), to tell you what I think about those priests who have received a “celebret” from the Roman Commission2 (http://www.dominicansavrille.us/indult-masses-archbishop-lefebvre-think/#sdfootnote2sym) charged with dividing and destroying us.
It is evident that by putting themselves in the hands of the current conciliar authorities, they are implicitly accepting the Council and the ensuing reforms, even if they have received some privileges which remain exceptional and provisory.
Their speech is paralyzed because of this acceptance. The bishops are watching them! It is very regrettable that these priests are not aware of this reality.  But we cannot fool the faithful.
The same may be said regarding these “traditional Masses” organized by the dioceses. They are celebrated between two conciliar masses. The celebrating priest says the new as well as the old.  How, and by whom is Holy Communion distributed? What will the sermon be? etc.
These masses are scams which lead the faithful to compromise their principles!  Many have already abandoned them.
What must change is their liberal and modernist doctrine.  We must arm ourselves with patience and pray. God’s hour will come.
God’s blessings to you on this holy feast of Easter.
Best regards to you in Christ and Mary.
Abp. Lefebvre
1 (http://www.dominicansavrille.us/indult-masses-archbishop-lefebvre-think/#sdfootnote1anc) Saint-Michel en-Brenne is the Mother House of the sisters of the Society.
2 (http://www.dominicansavrille.us/indult-masses-archbishop-lefebvre-think/#sdfootnote2anc) Ecclesia Dei Commission"
http://www.dominicansavrille.us/indult-masses-archbishop-lefebvre-think/ (http://www.dominicansavrille.us/indult-masses-archbishop-lefebvre-think/)
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: SeanJohnson on July 09, 2019, 07:05:26 PM
And still more from the old SSPX: 

"What final conclusion can we draw from all this?

That the precept of attending Sunday Mass is obligatory for all Catholics who have reached the age of reason (seven years old) but that some may be excused particularly those who are only near Masses "of Pope Paul VI" or to traditional Masses said under the "Indult." Why? Firstly, because of the danger for the faith coming either from the priests who celebrate or from the faithful who attend them; secondly, legitimization is given to the new liturgy and finally an approval more or less implicit of the work of destruction of the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Tradition."
http://archives.sspx.org/motu_proprio/attendance_at_the_indult_vanes.htm (http://archives.sspx.org/motu_proprio/attendance_at_the_indult_vanes.htm)
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: SeanJohnson on July 09, 2019, 07:15:08 PM
PS: Did any of you ever figure out why the Ecclesia Dei Commission was dissolved?

I will spare you the discourse:

It was because the very existence of the commission was a reminder of the division between the SSPX and Rome (and Rome's scam indult communities - a word ABL used to describe them).  

By abolishing the commission, in combination with the SSPX no longer preaching/writing about the things which separate the traditionalists from the indultarians, the oppositional mentality will vanish from the majority of SSPXers (who are mostly morons, easily led by the nose), and the very notion of a principled division will fade from the consciousness.

Satanic.

But their handlers (Roman and Swiss) are no morons.

They knew their people well.
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: homeschoolmom on July 09, 2019, 08:20:58 PM

That was very helpful, thank you!
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: Mr G on July 10, 2019, 02:27:32 PM
Hi Sean,

What would you suggest as an alternative to such events as the Catholic Identity Conference, that would bring the different Trad Groups together, and yet admit that their are serious differences and even debate them and yet find some common ground or common problem to unit against? Can such an event be possible, or would it end up in either a "food fight" or "hug fest"?


Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: SeanJohnson on July 10, 2019, 03:11:05 PM
Hi Sean,

What would you suggest as an alternative to such events as the Catholic Identity Conference, that would bring the different Trad Groups together, and yet admit that their are serious differences and even debate them and yet find some common ground or common problem to unit against? Can such an event be possible, or would it end up in either a "food fight" or "hug fest"?

Hello Mr. G-

It’s not clear to me how organizing a conference upon the lines you suggest would be any different than the tradcuмenical Angelus Press and CIC conferences, in principle.

That is to say, all those sects participating in those conferences would surely declare that there are many issues which divide them (well, they might not declare it to each other, but they would declare it to critics like you and I; between each other they would only discuss issues of mutual agreement, and therein lies just one of the problems).

Once you take that approach, you have dropped the sword (ie., You have agreed not to condemn error, and encouraged and conveyed a certain degree of indifference) and the same would be true in the Resistance:

Shall Fr. Hewko (who -against both the Council of Trent and Archbishop Lefebvre- believes in valid but sterile sacraments, or that Almighty God is powerless to make a Novus Ordo Eucharistic miracle without simultaneously endorsing the Novus Ordo, as though such a miracle could not be used by Him to combat lack of faith in the Real Presence that Rite promotes) sit down next to Bishop Williamson, to discuss their mutual opposition to modernist Rome or the SSPX sellout?  

If they did, the message which would be sent to the faithful is that the dogmatic decrees of Trent are not compulsory, and the result would be scandal deleterious to faith, and prejudicial to salvation of those who would subsequently adopt such a position.

The Resistance would be hypocrites to convene any such pluralist convocation.

I noted X said he was happy that all Resistance factions had supported the CCCC thread, but he also said their unity in that specific instance was accidental (ie., It was not his purpose to bring that about, but if, nevertheless, they all agree with its contents, so much the better, particularly since there was never a question of stifling differences to achieve that unanimous approval, which was once again accidental and not at all to his purpose).
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: Kazimierz on July 10, 2019, 03:39:11 PM
I wonder who will hosting this event. My vote would be for Mr. Rorque, as this whole things practically occupies a place of deluded subjective reality.

"Welcome to Fantasy Island" ......Da Pope! da pope!

(http://static.cms.legacy.com/sites/default/files/styles/og_share_image/public/ricardo-montalban-getty-hero_0.jpg?itok=8txtxQxi)
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: homeschoolmom on July 10, 2019, 04:09:49 PM

That is to say, all those sects participating in those conferences would surely declare that there are many issues which divide them (well, they might not declare it to each other, but they would declare it to critics like you and I; between each other they would only discuss issues of mutual agreement, and therein lies just one of the problems).

Once you take that approach, you have dropped the sword (ie., You have agreed not to condemn error, and encouraged and conveyed a certain degree of indifference) and the same would be true in the Resistance:


So what we need is a few rounds of actual debates. No lovely dovey, "let's find things in common to promote false unity", but a rough and tumble "let's hash out our differences and spell out the principles behind them". 

But is that appropriate for Catholic priests? 
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: Croixalist on July 10, 2019, 04:17:06 PM
Wait, wait... this won't be complete until TrashCultNut is a featured speaker. True SSPX= Society of St. Planet X!  :incense:
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: Kazimierz on July 10, 2019, 05:06:23 PM
Wait, wait... this won't be complete until TrashCultNut is a featured speaker. True SSPX= Society of St. Planet X!  :incense:
Planet X you say?..... :D :D :D :D
(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-0yT3Pn9W_Cs%2FTs_wmtVnk7I%2FAAAAAAAABzc%2FWnPF4t_2HaI%2Fs1600%2FFeast%2B1.jpg&f=1)
(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F_96uP6vDZMT8%2FS-gnBUuSdXI%2FAAAAAAAALik%2FEB4Qte05UhI%2Fs1600%2FDUCK19.png&f=1)
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: Matthew on July 10, 2019, 05:25:43 PM
I'm all for criticizing any persons or organizations who help the enemy by legitimizing the diabolical Conciliar Church and Vatican II. Just as we rightly criticize past popes who arranged "ecuмenical" meetings at Assisi. Truth has no place next to error. Vatican II is the ultimate in deception and error; it is literally the devil's masterpiece.

However, I have an honest question, please hear me out:

Where do neutral groups fit in?

For example, reprinters of pre-Vatican II Catholic literature, organizations which promote the Rosary, pro-Life, Gregorian Chant, the Brown Scapular, etc.?

Is it necessary for an organization dedicated to promoting Gregorian Chant or the Rosary to condemn the FSSP for its very real flaws re: its stance on the Crisis in the Church?

It just seems like the Crisis in the Church is not in scope for those organizations.

Gregorian chant is neither sedevacantist nor sedeplenist. It is Catholic. A misguided "Latin Mass" Catholic can enjoy it, as well as someone who has the full 100% package of the Truth. Likewise, we are all called to be pro-life and fight abortion in a systematic, organized manner. That includes the deluded Catholics in the Conciliar Church, and even more so those in the FSSP.

Isn't there even an official Church teaching about this? For example, it is licit to work closely with heretics (protestants) in pro-Life endeavors. We just don't worship with them.
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: Mega-fin on July 10, 2019, 05:34:27 PM
Good question. Obviously, there’s people I know who are quite liberal but attend the SSPX because it’s got “pretty music” (a man no less). But what about groups like say the Fatima Center (not the nuFatima Center that’s 100% SSPX backed). Fr Gruner never “officially” took a side in the SSPX/FSSP/ICK/Indult/NO war. He expressed Catholic dogma, promoted the traditional Mass, Rosary, Brown scapular, consecration of Russia, etc, but never “officially” came out and said “I adhere to group X” (even though he scarfed down a meal sitting next to then Fr Zendejas at that Bp Williamson conference in St Catherine’s a few years ago). Most people in all camps supported him because he simply spoke the truth which bought my support.
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: Matthew on July 10, 2019, 05:46:44 PM
So in other words, Bishop Fellay or Fr. Pagliarani attending such a conference SINS BY OMISSION by not taking the other "traditional" groups to task for their failings.

Meanwhile, representatives of companies or organizations promoting reprints of pre-Vatican II Catholic books, pro-Life, the Rosary, or Gregorian Chant might be practicing virtue by attending such a gathering. After all, there are many Catholics in attendance, and they ALL need to hear the specific message promoted by these groups.

It is not the job of a Gregorian Chant apostolate to untangle the theological mess caused by Vatican II. If such a group promotes Gregorian Chant, it is doing its job. Now one might argue that a "Gregorian Chant society" is NOT the be all and end all of what is needed today -- and the head of such a group might be the first to agree with you!

Just like it isn't the job of an individual Catholic to untangle Vatican II. That is why we are permitted to be "neutral" in the various controversies related to the Crisis in the Church. We are only tasked with saving our souls in whatever lifeboat we deem prudent: not in sorting out the Pope question or the Vatican II question. Therefore it follows that we lay Catholics can and should be "Trad-cuмenical", i.e., having Traditional Catholic acquaintances or even close friends who don't attend our favorite flavor of Trad chapel.

What is the alternative? To be curt but polite, or even refuse to speak, to anyone who isn't part of our particular Traditional group?

My point: a laymen -- or group of laymen -- is not in the same position as a priest or bishop. Clerics and laymen do not have the same obligations or roles to play with regards to fighting error. Especially controversial points of theology touching on the Crisis in the Church.
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: Matthew on July 10, 2019, 05:58:53 PM
I noted X said he was happy that all Resistance factions had supported the CCCC thread, but he also said their unity in that specific instance was accidental (ie., It was not his purpose to bring that about, but if, nevertheless, they all agree with its contents, so much the better, particularly since there was never a question of stifling differences to achieve that unanimous approval, which was once again accidental and not at all to his purpose).

So this would apply to my examples (reprinting classic Catholic books, the Rosary, pro-Life, Gregorian chant)
No truth was denied in promoting these things to all and sundry groups. No compromise is necessary, since Chant is neither pro-Summorum Pontificuм or against it. It doesn't call the Novus Ordo the "Ordinary form" or anything else. Chant is chant.
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: Mega-fin on July 10, 2019, 06:15:02 PM
I think the example of Bp Fellay and Fr Pagliarani vs Fr Gruner is an important distinction. Bp Fellay represents the SSPX invariably. He was SG for 24 years, a Catholic Bishop in said Society for now 31 years so he really physically represents in a way (at least should represent, or maybe used to represent is more accurate) the resistance to VII and the NO and his presence at a conference should say something about the conferences status about those subjects. Now obviously he will be speaking at the Angelus Press conference where a NO presbyter who loves “St” JPII and his vulgar ToB will also give a talk. And that in and of itself says something. 

Fr Gruner never represented a group outside of the Fatima Center which wasn’t founded on resistance of VII and the NO outright, but on promoting the full message of Fatima. Of course we all know he shot down VII and the NO as well but it wasn’t his primary message, whereas the SSPX has shown (historically) their open resistance to the changes. Fr Gruner worked with anyone (the SSPX, FSSP, Resistance, NO, everyone) who supported the full message of Fatima, and the SSPX had always worked with people who wanted undiluted Catholicism with novelty. Obviously pro-life movements aren’t directly religious as being against murder is the natural law and written on all men’s hearts regardless of creed, and is quite dominated by Protestants, but our presence as a pro-life rally isn’t a Protestant service, it’s a rally against the murder of babies. My wife and I have attended them where they have had Prots, NO, whoever, and we just stick together and pray our Rosary and move on. 
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: Incredulous on July 12, 2019, 11:50:52 AM



The SSPX is hosting a CMC (crypto-modernist conference).

Fr. Wegner has been given orders to accelerate his branding campaign.


Bp. Schnieder is Francis's faux-trad emissary.

Michael Matt, a trad sellout, the "Alex Jones of the Catacombs".

Mosher, Fox News...  a.k.a. "Fox Jєωs" my friends. :facepalm:


But you won't find any true traditional Catholic personalities on the SSPX's speakers list.

Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: ResistanceFan on July 18, 2019, 10:12:57 AM
I think this is an important discussion. Some traditional Catholics are very picky, and have isolated themselves completely from the world. How far does a group have to go in the battle to be considered worthy of support? Even if that group's charter is extremely limited in scope, as others in this thread have discussed. Should we boycott a group promoting traditional Catholic hymns and music, if they fail to sort out the pope question?
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: Ascetik on July 18, 2019, 12:01:23 PM
Looks like a good conference to me.

Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: forlorn on July 18, 2019, 03:19:33 PM
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. The Crusaders happily fought alongside Greek schismatics(although, the schism was much more recent and less severe at the time, but it was still a schism nevertheless) in the first few Crusades. Refusing to cooperate at all with other Trad organisations because you don't agree with them on every minutiae, especially when said minutiae are not even relevant to the matter at hand, is just silly. You shouldn't sweep differences under the carpet, true, but you shouldn't let them get in the way of matters where those issues aren't even relevant, especially when you agree with each other on 99% of everything else. 
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: SeanJohnson on July 18, 2019, 03:57:06 PM
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. The Crusaders happily fought alongside Greek schismatics(although, the schism was much more recent and less severe at the time, but it was still a schism nevertheless) in the first few Crusades. Refusing to cooperate at all with other Trad organisations because you don't agree with them on every minutiae, especially when said minutiae are not even relevant to the matter at hand, is just silly. You shouldn't sweep differences under the carpet, true, but you shouldn't let them get in the way of matters where those issues aren't even relevant, especially when you agree with each other on 99% of everything else.
for·lorn
/fərˈlôrn/
 (https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS756US756&q=how+to+pronounce+forlorn&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAOMIfcRoyS3w8sc9YSmDSWtOXmPU4uINKMrPK81LzkwsyczPExLmYglJLcoV4pbi5GJPyy_KyS_Ks2JRYkrN41nEKpGRX65Qkq9QANSSD9STqgBVAQCTysNKWQAAAA&pron_lang=en&pron_country=us&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjPm-iprb_jAhXVLc0KHSSzCZ0Q3eEDMAB6BAgAEAg)

2. (of an aim or endeavor) unlikely to succeed or be fulfilled; hopeless.
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: forlorn on July 18, 2019, 03:59:45 PM
for·lorn
/fərˈlôrn/
 (https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS756US756&q=how+to+pronounce+forlorn&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAOMIfcRoyS3w8sc9YSmDSWtOXmPU4uINKMrPK81LzkwsyczPExLmYglJLcoV4pbi5GJPyy_KyS_Ks2JRYkrN41nEKpGRX65Qkq9QANSSD9STqgBVAQCTysNKWQAAAA&pron_lang=en&pron_country=us&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjPm-iprb_jAhXVLc0KHSSzCZ0Q3eEDMAB6BAgAEAg)

2. (of an aim or endeavor) unlikely to succeed or be fulfilled; hopeless.
(https://i.gyazo.com/cb309a85ba12b3837e6fbfa26ee777d9.png)
The feeling I get when I see a Seanjohnson post and hope it might be worth reading.
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: Nishant Xavier on July 18, 2019, 04:39:49 PM
How long is the Resistance going to be meaninglessly focused on attacking the SSPX? In what positive way can the Resistance show that it is building up Tradition and contributing to the Cause of Catholic Restoration? Hardly any. 

This was a good Conference, with many Traditional Catholic Bishops, Priests and Laity attending or supporting. Nothing to see here.

Meanwhile, as the SSPX continues to focus on the really important work of forming Priests, fostering Vocations, caring for orphans, teaching children in schools, forming strong Catholic Families, and the like, there's a good fruit of so-called Trad-ecuмenism: If we combine the Society of St. Pius X, the Fraternity of St. Peter, and the Institute of Christ the King, Tradition is expected to have more Priests than mainstream Priests in France in just less than 20 years. https://centurioweblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/traditional-priests-in-france-until-2050.html?m=1 (https://centurioweblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/traditional-priests-in-france-until-2050.html?m=1) 

That's the only way the only important battle will be ultimately won, not by the Resistance being divisive. More Priests, more holy Priests, more strong Catholic Families, and more of everything that attracts souls to Tradition, and leads to Restoration in the Church.
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: Nadir on July 18, 2019, 04:57:44 PM
for·lorn
/fərˈlôrn/
 (https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS756US756&q=how+to+pronounce+forlorn&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAOMIfcRoyS3w8sc9YSmDSWtOXmPU4uINKMrPK81LzkwsyczPExLmYglJLcoV4pbi5GJPyy_KyS_Ks2JRYkrN41nEKpGRX65Qkq9QANSSD9STqgBVAQCTysNKWQAAAA&pron_lang=en&pron_country=us&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjPm-iprb_jAhXVLc0KHSSzCZ0Q3eEDMAB6BAgAEAg)

2. (of an aim or endeavor) unlikely to succeed or be fulfilled; hopeless.
Definition of ad hnominem
 

1appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect 

2marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character name rather than by an answer to the contentions made
:facepalm:  :fryingpan:
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: Incredulous on July 18, 2019, 06:19:07 PM
How long is the Resistance going to be meaninglessly focused on attacking the SSPX? In what positive way can the Resistance show that it is building up Tradition and contributing to the Cause of Catholic Restoration? Hardly any.

This was a good Conference, with many Traditional Catholic Bishops, Priests and Laity attending or supporting. Nothing to see here.

Meanwhile, as the SSPX continues to focus on the really important work of forming Priests, fostering Vocations, caring for orphans, teaching children in schools, forming strong Catholic Families, and the like, there's a good fruit of so-called Trad-ecuмenism: If we combine the Society of St. Pius X, the Fraternity of St. Peter, and the Institute of Christ the King, Tradition is expected to have more Priests than mainstream Priests in France in just less than 20 years. https://centurioweblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/traditional-priests-in-france-until-2050.html?m=1 (https://centurioweblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/traditional-priests-in-france-until-2050.html?m=1)

That's the only way the only important battle will be ultimately won, not by the Resistance being divisive. More Priests, more holy Priests, more strong Catholic Families, and more of everything that attracts souls to Tradition, and leads to Restoration in the Church.


XS, I totally disagree with your upbeat description of the re-branded SSPX 's activities. 
Judas's bank account was looking very upbeat after he received his Pharisaic pay-off too.

But your opening point was good.  What is the trad resistance doing?  And I use a lower case "r", because the Broadstair's Resistance has already thrown in the towel, as the SSPX scoops up independent chapels left & right.

The remnant resistance needs new leadership.   Who could come forth to rally us?
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: 2Vermont on July 18, 2019, 09:35:04 PM
Isn't there even an official Church teaching about this? For example, it is licit to work closely with heretics (protestants) in pro-Life endeavors. We just don't worship with them.
Doesn't Mortalium Animos speak to this?
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: Caraffa on July 19, 2019, 02:43:57 AM
How long is the Resistance going to be meaninglessly focused on attacking the SSPX? In what positive way can the Resistance show that it is building up Tradition and contributing to the Cause of Catholic Restoration? Hardly any.

How about 200+ souls confirmed by Resistance Bishops in Colombia over the past three years as well as ordaining several priests in Brazil. In fact, the Resistance is probably running close to Campos in terms of number of priests ordained in Brazil over the same time period.



Quote
Meanwhile, as the SSPX continues to focus on the really important work of forming Priests, fostering Vocations, caring for orphans, teaching children in schools, forming strong Catholic Families, and the like, there's a good fruit of so-called Trad-ecuмenism:


Sorry Xavier, but you're out of the loop. The SSPX, as did much of the Trad world began unraveling in the second half of the Aughts. The SSPX has been in a demographic adjusted decline in terms of vocations since at least the mid-2000's. The peak for SSPX vocations was from the mid-1980's to the mid-90's.



Quote
If we combine the Society of St. Pius X, the Fraternity of St. Peter, and the Institute of Christ the King, Tradition is expected to have more Priests than mainstream Priests in France in just less than 20 years. https://centurioweblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/traditional-priests-in-france-until-2050.html?m=1 (https://centurioweblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/traditional-priests-in-france-until-2050.html?m=1)

I've seen this repeated alot recently, that I'm making a thread addressing this claim. It might be skewering your view of things.

Wait for it … Wait for it...  


Here you go:
https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/2038-that-magical-french-date/
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: TKGS on July 19, 2019, 07:44:19 AM
However, I have an honest question, please hear me out:

Where do neutral groups fit in?
I think our Lord already answered this one:

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot.  But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth."  (Apoc. 3:15-16)
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: Nishant Xavier on July 19, 2019, 03:03:13 PM
Dear Caraffa, you may want to review this: "In all, 50 young men have answered God’s call and begun their preparation for the priesthood in the SSPX seminaries in Europe and North America. May they persevere for all six years of their formation, with the help of God’s grace and their daily fidelity to seminary life.

In March, the SSPX seminaries in Argentina and Australia welcomed 15 candidates in the spirituality year. In all, 65 first-year seminarians will have entered in the year 2018: almost a record, since it has been more than thirty years since the numbers were this high." https://fsspx.news/en/news-events/news/large-number-first-year-seminarians-sspx-41279 (https://fsspx.news/en/news-events/news/large-number-first-year-seminarians-sspx-41279)

Anyway, I'm glad Resistance Bishops have been busily occupied doing what Catholic Bishops should do - Ordaining Priests and Confirming Catholics. That's the kind of thing it would be great to focus on more or even entirely. 

Where I'm from, the Consoling Sisters of the Sacred Heart, united with our SSPX Priests, focus most of their efforts on prayer, sacrifice, the sanctification of youth, teaching and looking after kids in school, and caring for abandoned children in the orphanage, and raising them in the Faith: I know God's Favour is on the SSPX, and there is every Mark of His signal Graces and His Presence in the SSPX apostolate. The SSPX is hardly interested in attacking the resistance, now nearly 7 years later; it may have written 7 articles on it, perhaps in these many years. There's much more important and serious work that needs to be done, and the SSPX is doing it.

Please see: https://fsspx.news/en/news-events/news/new-developments-consoling-sisters-sacred-heart-india-35110 (https://fsspx.news/en/news-events/news/new-developments-consoling-sisters-sacred-heart-india-35110)

I'll be sure to pop into your other thread later on, where we can do some number-crunching with expected retirement ages etc. 

Sincerely,
XavierSem.
God bless.
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: ByzCat3000 on July 19, 2019, 05:49:32 PM
Doesn't Mortalium Animos speak to this?
If I recall correctly, Mortalium Animos speaks of participating in the religious services of non-Catholics, particularly with the intent of establishing church unity, or trying to unite Christianity in some way other than by trying to convert non-Catholics to Catholicism (such as compromises, changing dogmas, etc.)

Its been awhile since I read it, but I don't believe Pius XI condemns working with non-Catholics or even non-Christians on "secular" endeavors like protecting the unborn (and I mean the word "secular' in the older sense of the word)
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: 2Vermont on July 19, 2019, 07:34:55 PM
If I recall correctly, Mortalium Animos speaks of participating in the religious services of non-Catholics, particularly with the intent of establishing church unity, or trying to unite Christianity in some way other than by trying to convert non-Catholics to Catholicism (such as compromises, changing dogmas, etc.)

Its been awhile since I read it, but I don't believe Pius XI condemns working with non-Catholics or even non-Christians on "secular" endeavors like protecting the unborn (and I mean the word "secular' in the older sense of the word)
Perhaps you are correct.  I could have sworn I remember some reference to unity regarding matters other than religion. 
As for the pro-life movement, I think that when Catholic and non-Catholics unite over this, there is a danger of misunderstanding that unity as a form of Christian unity.   As a result, I wonder whether it would fall under Mortalium Animos.  
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: SeanJohnson on July 19, 2019, 09:05:29 PM
Mortalium Animos did not confine itself to prohibiting strictly inter-religious worship between Catholics and non-Catholics, but prohibited a much wider breadth of inter-religious activities.

The encyclical basically continued where Testem Benevolentiae left off (which was itself an implicit condemnation of Archbishop John Ireland’s desire to attend the Chicago World’s Fair, which also was not a strictly joint worship activity).

But interconfessional unity was underneath the desire (or at least the desire to make American Catholics acceptable to Protestant America, which is the precursor, as the SSPX is finding out), and Leo knew it.

Same spirit is continued in n Mortalium:

On cell, but see paragraph 2, already speaking of activities not strictly worship.

2V is right.
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: ByzCat3000 on July 19, 2019, 11:13:38 PM
Mortalium Animos did not confine itself to prohibiting strictly inter-religious worship between Catholics and non-Catholics, but prohibited a much wider breadth of inter-religious activities.

The encyclical basically continued where Testem Benevolentiae left off (which was itself an implicit condemnation of Archbishop John Ireland’s desire to attend the Chicago World’s Fair, which also was not a strictly joint worship activity).

But interconfessional unity was underneath the desire (or at least the desire to make American Catholics acceptable to Protestant America, which is the precursor, as the SSPX is finding out), and Leo knew it.

Same spirit is continued in n Mortalium:

On cell, but see paragraph 2, already speaking of activities not strictly worship.

2V is right.
I'm going off paragraph 2, but that seems to rule out any activiry that is likely to give the impression that all religions are more or less equally true.  Which I don't think something like an anti-abortion protest would qualify.
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: SeanJohnson on July 19, 2019, 11:16:59 PM
I'm going off paragraph 2, but that seems to rule out any activiry that is likely to give the impression that all religions are more or less equally true.  Which I don't think something like an anti-abortion protest would qualify.
I would say joint religious prayer at any function for any reason is clearly prohibited as per se indifferentism (regardless of the subjective intention).
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: Matthew on July 19, 2019, 11:43:22 PM
I think our Lord already answered this one:

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot.  But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth."  (Apoc. 3:15-16)
Did you even read my post? 
I didn't ask about the lukewarm. That is obvious. I wasn't talking about compromisers, fence-sitters, or the lukewarm.

I said NEUTRAL because that has a very specific meaning. In this context it means "has no dog in the fight", "does not apply", "not in scope", etc.
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: Matthew on July 19, 2019, 11:50:03 PM
I would say joint religious prayer at any function for any reason is clearly prohibited as per se indifferentism (regardless of the subjective intention).

Well that isn't what I was talking about at all.

I'm talking about Pro-life action (counseling, talking to women, "rescue" operations, trying to shut down abortuaries, political action), and various apostolates like helping abused women.
But was this thread about ecuмenism -- gatherings between Catholics and non-Catholics? I thought it was a bunch of TRADS getting together in a TRAD-cuмenical affair.

No offense, but Mortalium Animos was clearly talking about Catholic vs. Non-Catholic -- not Trad vs. Trad. There is no "mortalium animos" equivalent which condemns Trad-cuмenism or neutrality in Trad politics.

So I brought up the topic -- what about specific Catholic products like pre-V2 books, Gregorian chant, statues, mantillas, etc. -- do such companies need to "pick a group and stand on principle", sacrificing 5/6 of their potential market -- or otherwise be considered lukewarm? Or do these groups have "no dog in the fight" on things like the Pope question, the best Trad group to be a member of, etc.
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: Matthew on July 19, 2019, 11:59:52 PM
In fact, let's get to the heart of the matter.

The ONLY thing wrong with this whole gathering is that the SSPX, which formerly had the full package of truth, is now watering down their position and considering various compromisers and compromised groups to be equal to them. This is a step down for them, and a dereliction of their duty.

Because even if this group got together and prayed publicly together -- or even participated in liturgical worship together -- there wouldn't be a problem as (virtually) all of them are Catholics. But that misses the point that the SSPX used to know better -- they were the witnesses against Vatican II and the new religion. The various "approved by Rome" groups were all considered a bunch of sellouts. And working directly with the Conciliar Church? Unthinkable!

Not anymore. That's the problem.
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: SeanJohnson on July 20, 2019, 12:15:59 AM
Well that isn't what I was talking about at all.

I'm talking about Pro-life action (counseling, talking to women, "rescue" operations, trying to shut down abortuaries, political action), and various apostolates like helping abused women.
But was this thread about ecuмenism -- gatherings between Catholics and non-Catholics? I thought it was a bunch of TRADS getting together in a TRAD-cuмenical affair.

No offense, but Mortalium Animos was clearly talking about Catholic vs. Non-Catholic -- not Trad vs. Trad. There is no "mortalium animos" equivalent which condemns Trad-cuмenism or neutrality in Trad politics.

So I brought up the topic -- what about specific Catholic products like pre-V2 books, Gregorian chant, statues, mantillas, etc. -- do such companies need to "pick a group and stand on principle", sacrificing 5/6 of their potential market -- or otherwise be considered lukewarm? Or do these groups have "no dog in the fight" on things like the Pope question, the best Trad group to be a member of, etc.
My response was to Byz
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: 2Vermont on July 20, 2019, 06:28:24 AM
No offense, but Mortalium Animos was clearly talking about Catholic vs. Non-Catholic -- not Trad vs. Trad. There is no "mortalium animos" equivalent which condemns Trad-cuмenism or neutrality in Trad politics.

I brought up Mortalium Animos because of the comment/question you had earlier.  I wasn't clear as to your point, so maybe I misunderstood it:
Isn't there even an official Church teaching about this? For example, it is licit to work closely with heretics (protestants) in pro-Life endeavors. We just don't worship with them.
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: SeanJohnson on July 20, 2019, 06:42:52 AM
Archbishop Lefebvre was pretty clear that they are doing the work of the devil, betraying Tradition, hurting the prospects for the recovery of the Church, are compromising doctrine/accepting conciliar errors, and that should never give the impression that we even like talking with them.

That's what's wrong with tradcuмenism.
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: TKGS on July 20, 2019, 07:34:48 AM
Did you even read my post?
I didn't ask about the lukewarm. That is obvious. I wasn't talking about compromisers, fence-sitters, or the lukewarm.

I said NEUTRAL because that has a very specific meaning. In this context it means "has no dog in the fight", "does not apply", "not in scope", etc.
Personally, I can't think of anything more lukewarm than the people involved who say they're neutral.
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: Smedley Butler on July 20, 2019, 09:00:21 AM
Fr. Weggy is going to be there?? haha
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: TKGS on July 20, 2019, 09:13:29 AM
Did you even read my post?
I didn't ask about the lukewarm. That is obvious. I wasn't talking about compromisers, fence-sitters, or the lukewarm.

I said NEUTRAL because that has a very specific meaning. In this context it means "has no dog in the fight", "does not apply", "not in scope", etc.
From OneLook.com--Definition of Fencesitter:
 noun:  a neutral or uncommitted person (especially in politics)
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: Incredulous on July 20, 2019, 09:36:03 AM
Looks like a good conference to me.


On second thought, resistance trads should attend the SSPX conference and
level some pointed questions to the "good" Bishop Schnieder, who Michael Matt and the SSPX endorse.

1. Please explain how your Diocese became the illuminati capital of the world?
(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2F731-_nZB2tY%2Fmaxresdefault.jpg&f=1)

2. Please explain your thoughts on religious syncretism and ecuмenism?
(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-kulFb32Za1c%2FVSkOqXCtjbI%2FAAAAAAAAFKE%2FUu2dDlHc_lk%2Fs1600%2F2013-03-18-Mgr-Schneider-rencontre-des-chefs-religieux-au-Kazakhstan.jpg&f=1)
Bring on more re-branding Fr. Wegner.  We love it!
Title: Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
Post by: forlorn on July 20, 2019, 10:26:27 AM
Personally, I can't think of anything more lukewarm than the people involved who say they're neutral.
Why does some society about promoting Gregory Chant, for example, need to have an official position on everything that all their members must hold? Individuals in their society may have their own personal opinions, or maybe just don't know(and there's nothing wrong with that, it's less dangerous than pretending you know all the answers). But it doesn't mean the society as a whole must have a platform and position on every possible issue surrounding the Crisis, so that they know not to associate or work with any other Catholics who might have different views.

As for your definition of a fence-sitter, while I know you got it from a dictionary, I feel the definition you gave isn't the best and doesn't grasp the full meaning of it. A fence-sitter isn't just someone who's neutral, it's someone who claims to be neutral because they're afraid of picking a side because of the repercussions of doing so, e.g criticism from the other side. It doesn't apply to someone who's actually neutral just because they don't know or it's not relevant to them, etc.