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Author Topic: SSPX Tradcuмania  (Read 5638 times)

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Offline Caraffa

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Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2019, 02:43:57 AM »
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  • How long is the Resistance going to be meaninglessly focused on attacking the SSPX? In what positive way can the Resistance show that it is building up Tradition and contributing to the Cause of Catholic Restoration? Hardly any.

    How about 200+ souls confirmed by Resistance Bishops in Colombia over the past three years as well as ordaining several priests in Brazil. In fact, the Resistance is probably running close to Campos in terms of number of priests ordained in Brazil over the same time period.



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    Meanwhile, as the SSPX continues to focus on the really important work of forming Priests, fostering Vocations, caring for orphans, teaching children in schools, forming strong Catholic Families, and the like, there's a good fruit of so-called Trad-ecuмenism:


    Sorry Xavier, but you're out of the loop. The SSPX, as did much of the Trad world began unraveling in the second half of the Aughts. The SSPX has been in a demographic adjusted decline in terms of vocations since at least the mid-2000's. The peak for SSPX vocations was from the mid-1980's to the mid-90's.



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    If we combine the Society of St. Pius X, the Fraternity of St. Peter, and the Institute of Christ the King, Tradition is expected to have more Priests than mainstream Priests in France in just less than 20 years. https://centurioweblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/traditional-priests-in-france-until-2050.html?m=1

    I've seen this repeated alot recently, that I'm making a thread addressing this claim. It might be skewering your view of things.

    Wait for it … Wait for it...  


    Here you go:
    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/2038-that-magical-french-date/
    Pray for me, always.


    Offline TKGS

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #31 on: July 19, 2019, 07:44:19 AM »
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  • However, I have an honest question, please hear me out:

    Where do neutral groups fit in?
    I think our Lord already answered this one:

    "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot.  But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth."  (Apoc. 3:15-16)


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #32 on: July 19, 2019, 03:03:13 PM »
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  • Dear Caraffa, you may want to review this: "In all, 50 young men have answered God’s call and begun their preparation for the priesthood in the SSPX seminaries in Europe and North America. May they persevere for all six years of their formation, with the help of God’s grace and their daily fidelity to seminary life.

    In March, the SSPX seminaries in Argentina and Australia welcomed 15 candidates in the spirituality year. In all, 65 first-year seminarians will have entered in the year 2018: almost a record, since it has been more than thirty years since the numbers were this high." https://fsspx.news/en/news-events/news/large-number-first-year-seminarians-sspx-41279

    Anyway, I'm glad Resistance Bishops have been busily occupied doing what Catholic Bishops should do - Ordaining Priests and Confirming Catholics. That's the kind of thing it would be great to focus on more or even entirely. 

    Where I'm from, the Consoling Sisters of the Sacred Heart, united with our SSPX Priests, focus most of their efforts on prayer, sacrifice, the sanctification of youth, teaching and looking after kids in school, and caring for abandoned children in the orphanage, and raising them in the Faith: I know God's Favour is on the SSPX, and there is every Mark of His signal Graces and His Presence in the SSPX apostolate. The SSPX is hardly interested in attacking the resistance, now nearly 7 years later; it may have written 7 articles on it, perhaps in these many years. There's much more important and serious work that needs to be done, and the SSPX is doing it.

    Please see: https://fsspx.news/en/news-events/news/new-developments-consoling-sisters-sacred-heart-india-35110

    I'll be sure to pop into your other thread later on, where we can do some number-crunching with expected retirement ages etc. 

    Sincerely,
    XavierSem.
    God bless.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #33 on: July 19, 2019, 05:49:32 PM »
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  • Doesn't Mortalium Animos speak to this?
    If I recall correctly, Mortalium Animos speaks of participating in the religious services of non-Catholics, particularly with the intent of establishing church unity, or trying to unite Christianity in some way other than by trying to convert non-Catholics to Catholicism (such as compromises, changing dogmas, etc.)

    Its been awhile since I read it, but I don't believe Pius XI condemns working with non-Catholics or even non-Christians on "secular" endeavors like protecting the unborn (and I mean the word "secular' in the older sense of the word)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #34 on: July 19, 2019, 07:34:55 PM »
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  • If I recall correctly, Mortalium Animos speaks of participating in the religious services of non-Catholics, particularly with the intent of establishing church unity, or trying to unite Christianity in some way other than by trying to convert non-Catholics to Catholicism (such as compromises, changing dogmas, etc.)

    Its been awhile since I read it, but I don't believe Pius XI condemns working with non-Catholics or even non-Christians on "secular" endeavors like protecting the unborn (and I mean the word "secular' in the older sense of the word)
    Perhaps you are correct.  I could have sworn I remember some reference to unity regarding matters other than religion. 
    As for the pro-life movement, I think that when Catholic and non-Catholics unite over this, there is a danger of misunderstanding that unity as a form of Christian unity.   As a result, I wonder whether it would fall under Mortalium Animos.  
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #35 on: July 19, 2019, 09:05:29 PM »
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  • Mortalium Animos did not confine itself to prohibiting strictly inter-religious worship between Catholics and non-Catholics, but prohibited a much wider breadth of inter-religious activities.

    The encyclical basically continued where Testem Benevolentiae left off (which was itself an implicit condemnation of Archbishop John Ireland’s desire to attend the Chicago World’s Fair, which also was not a strictly joint worship activity).

    But interconfessional unity was underneath the desire (or at least the desire to make American Catholics acceptable to Protestant America, which is the precursor, as the SSPX is finding out), and Leo knew it.

    Same spirit is continued in n Mortalium:

    On cell, but see paragraph 2, already speaking of activities not strictly worship.

    2V is right.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #36 on: July 19, 2019, 11:13:38 PM »
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  • Mortalium Animos did not confine itself to prohibiting strictly inter-religious worship between Catholics and non-Catholics, but prohibited a much wider breadth of inter-religious activities.

    The encyclical basically continued where Testem Benevolentiae left off (which was itself an implicit condemnation of Archbishop John Ireland’s desire to attend the Chicago World’s Fair, which also was not a strictly joint worship activity).

    But interconfessional unity was underneath the desire (or at least the desire to make American Catholics acceptable to Protestant America, which is the precursor, as the SSPX is finding out), and Leo knew it.

    Same spirit is continued in n Mortalium:

    On cell, but see paragraph 2, already speaking of activities not strictly worship.

    2V is right.
    I'm going off paragraph 2, but that seems to rule out any activiry that is likely to give the impression that all religions are more or less equally true.  Which I don't think something like an anti-abortion protest would qualify.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #37 on: July 19, 2019, 11:16:59 PM »
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  • I'm going off paragraph 2, but that seems to rule out any activiry that is likely to give the impression that all religions are more or less equally true.  Which I don't think something like an anti-abortion protest would qualify.
    I would say joint religious prayer at any function for any reason is clearly prohibited as per se indifferentism (regardless of the subjective intention).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #38 on: July 19, 2019, 11:43:22 PM »
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  • I think our Lord already answered this one:

    "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot.  But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth."  (Apoc. 3:15-16)
    Did you even read my post? 
    I didn't ask about the lukewarm. That is obvious. I wasn't talking about compromisers, fence-sitters, or the lukewarm.

    I said NEUTRAL because that has a very specific meaning. In this context it means "has no dog in the fight", "does not apply", "not in scope", etc.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #39 on: July 19, 2019, 11:50:03 PM »
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  • I would say joint religious prayer at any function for any reason is clearly prohibited as per se indifferentism (regardless of the subjective intention).

    Well that isn't what I was talking about at all.

    I'm talking about Pro-life action (counseling, talking to women, "rescue" operations, trying to shut down abortuaries, political action), and various apostolates like helping abused women.
    But was this thread about ecuмenism -- gatherings between Catholics and non-Catholics? I thought it was a bunch of TRADS getting together in a TRAD-cuмenical affair.

    No offense, but Mortalium Animos was clearly talking about Catholic vs. Non-Catholic -- not Trad vs. Trad. There is no "mortalium animos" equivalent which condemns Trad-cuмenism or neutrality in Trad politics.

    So I brought up the topic -- what about specific Catholic products like pre-V2 books, Gregorian chant, statues, mantillas, etc. -- do such companies need to "pick a group and stand on principle", sacrificing 5/6 of their potential market -- or otherwise be considered lukewarm? Or do these groups have "no dog in the fight" on things like the Pope question, the best Trad group to be a member of, etc.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #40 on: July 19, 2019, 11:59:52 PM »
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  • In fact, let's get to the heart of the matter.

    The ONLY thing wrong with this whole gathering is that the SSPX, which formerly had the full package of truth, is now watering down their position and considering various compromisers and compromised groups to be equal to them. This is a step down for them, and a dereliction of their duty.

    Because even if this group got together and prayed publicly together -- or even participated in liturgical worship together -- there wouldn't be a problem as (virtually) all of them are Catholics. But that misses the point that the SSPX used to know better -- they were the witnesses against Vatican II and the new religion. The various "approved by Rome" groups were all considered a bunch of sellouts. And working directly with the Conciliar Church? Unthinkable!

    Not anymore. That's the problem.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #41 on: July 20, 2019, 12:15:59 AM »
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  • Well that isn't what I was talking about at all.

    I'm talking about Pro-life action (counseling, talking to women, "rescue" operations, trying to shut down abortuaries, political action), and various apostolates like helping abused women.
    But was this thread about ecuмenism -- gatherings between Catholics and non-Catholics? I thought it was a bunch of TRADS getting together in a TRAD-cuмenical affair.

    No offense, but Mortalium Animos was clearly talking about Catholic vs. Non-Catholic -- not Trad vs. Trad. There is no "mortalium animos" equivalent which condemns Trad-cuмenism or neutrality in Trad politics.

    So I brought up the topic -- what about specific Catholic products like pre-V2 books, Gregorian chant, statues, mantillas, etc. -- do such companies need to "pick a group and stand on principle", sacrificing 5/6 of their potential market -- or otherwise be considered lukewarm? Or do these groups have "no dog in the fight" on things like the Pope question, the best Trad group to be a member of, etc.
    My response was to Byz
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #42 on: July 20, 2019, 06:28:24 AM »
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  • No offense, but Mortalium Animos was clearly talking about Catholic vs. Non-Catholic -- not Trad vs. Trad. There is no "mortalium animos" equivalent which condemns Trad-cuмenism or neutrality in Trad politics.

    I brought up Mortalium Animos because of the comment/question you had earlier.  I wasn't clear as to your point, so maybe I misunderstood it:
    Isn't there even an official Church teaching about this? For example, it is licit to work closely with heretics (protestants) in pro-Life endeavors. We just don't worship with them.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #43 on: July 20, 2019, 06:42:52 AM »
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  • Archbishop Lefebvre was pretty clear that they are doing the work of the devil, betraying Tradition, hurting the prospects for the recovery of the Church, are compromising doctrine/accepting conciliar errors, and that should never give the impression that we even like talking with them.

    That's what's wrong with tradcuмenism.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #44 on: July 20, 2019, 07:34:48 AM »
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  • Did you even read my post?
    I didn't ask about the lukewarm. That is obvious. I wasn't talking about compromisers, fence-sitters, or the lukewarm.

    I said NEUTRAL because that has a very specific meaning. In this context it means "has no dog in the fight", "does not apply", "not in scope", etc.
    Personally, I can't think of anything more lukewarm than the people involved who say they're neutral.