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Author Topic: SSPX Tradcuмania  (Read 5621 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2019, 05:25:43 PM »
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    • I'm all for criticizing any persons or organizations who help the enemy by legitimizing the diabolical Conciliar Church and Vatican II. Just as we rightly criticize past popes who arranged "ecuмenical" meetings at Assisi. Truth has no place next to error. Vatican II is the ultimate in deception and error; it is literally the devil's masterpiece.

    However, I have an honest question, please hear me out:

    Where do neutral groups fit in?

    For example, reprinters of pre-Vatican II Catholic literature, organizations which promote the Rosary, pro-Life, Gregorian Chant, the Brown Scapular, etc.?

    Is it necessary for an organization dedicated to promoting Gregorian Chant or the Rosary to condemn the FSSP for its very real flaws re: its stance on the Crisis in the Church?

    It just seems like the Crisis in the Church is not in scope for those organizations.

    Gregorian chant is neither sedevacantist nor sedeplenist. It is Catholic. A misguided "Latin Mass" Catholic can enjoy it, as well as someone who has the full 100% package of the Truth. Likewise, we are all called to be pro-life and fight abortion in a systematic, organized manner. That includes the deluded Catholics in the Conciliar Church, and even more so those in the FSSP.

    Isn't there even an official Church teaching about this? For example, it is licit to work closely with heretics (protestants) in pro-Life endeavors. We just don't worship with them.
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    Offline Mega-fin

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #16 on: July 10, 2019, 05:34:27 PM »
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    • Good question. Obviously, there’s people I know who are quite liberal but attend the SSPX because it’s got “pretty music” (a man no less). But what about groups like say the Fatima Center (not the nuFatima Center that’s 100% SSPX backed). Fr Gruner never “officially” took a side in the SSPX/FSSP/ICK/Indult/NO war. He expressed Catholic dogma, promoted the traditional Mass, Rosary, Brown scapular, consecration of Russia, etc, but never “officially” came out and said “I adhere to group X” (even though he scarfed down a meal sitting next to then Fr Zendejas at that Bp Williamson conference in St Catherine’s a few years ago). Most people in all camps supported him because he simply spoke the truth which bought my support.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #17 on: July 10, 2019, 05:46:44 PM »
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    • So in other words, Bishop Fellay or Fr. Pagliarani attending such a conference SINS BY OMISSION by not taking the other "traditional" groups to task for their failings.

    Meanwhile, representatives of companies or organizations promoting reprints of pre-Vatican II Catholic books, pro-Life, the Rosary, or Gregorian Chant might be practicing virtue by attending such a gathering. After all, there are many Catholics in attendance, and they ALL need to hear the specific message promoted by these groups.

    It is not the job of a Gregorian Chant apostolate to untangle the theological mess caused by Vatican II. If such a group promotes Gregorian Chant, it is doing its job. Now one might argue that a "Gregorian Chant society" is NOT the be all and end all of what is needed today -- and the head of such a group might be the first to agree with you!

    Just like it isn't the job of an individual Catholic to untangle Vatican II. That is why we are permitted to be "neutral" in the various controversies related to the Crisis in the Church. We are only tasked with saving our souls in whatever lifeboat we deem prudent: not in sorting out the Pope question or the Vatican II question. Therefore it follows that we lay Catholics can and should be "Trad-cuмenical", i.e., having Traditional Catholic acquaintances or even close friends who don't attend our favorite flavor of Trad chapel.

    What is the alternative? To be curt but polite, or even refuse to speak, to anyone who isn't part of our particular Traditional group?

    My point: a laymen -- or group of laymen -- is not in the same position as a priest or bishop. Clerics and laymen do not have the same obligations or roles to play with regards to fighting error. Especially controversial points of theology touching on the Crisis in the Church.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #18 on: July 10, 2019, 05:58:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on July 10, 2019, 03:11:05 PM
    I noted X said he was happy that all Resistance factions had supported the CCCC thread, but he also said their unity in that specific instance was accidental (ie., It was not his purpose to bring that about, but if, nevertheless, they all agree with its contents, so much the better, particularly since there was never a question of stifling differences to achieve that unanimous approval, which was once again accidental and not at all to his purpose).

    So this would apply to my examples (reprinting classic Catholic books, the Rosary, pro-Life, Gregorian chant)
    No truth was denied in promoting these things to all and sundry groups. No compromise is necessary, since Chant is neither pro-Summorum Pontificuм or against it. It doesn't call the Novus Ordo the "Ordinary form" or anything else. Chant is chant.
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    Offline Mega-fin

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #19 on: July 10, 2019, 06:15:02 PM »
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    • I think the example of Bp Fellay and Fr Pagliarani vs Fr Gruner is an important distinction. Bp Fellay represents the SSPX invariably. He was SG for 24 years, a Catholic Bishop in said Society for now 31 years so he really physically represents in a way (at least should represent, or maybe used to represent is more accurate) the resistance to VII and the NO and his presence at a conference should say something about the conferences status about those subjects. Now obviously he will be speaking at the Angelus Press conference where a NO presbyter who loves “St” JPII and his vulgar ToB will also give a talk. And that in and of itself says something. 

    Fr Gruner never represented a group outside of the Fatima Center which wasn’t founded on resistance of VII and the NO outright, but on promoting the full message of Fatima. Of course we all know he shot down VII and the NO as well but it wasn’t his primary message, whereas the SSPX has shown (historically) their open resistance to the changes. Fr Gruner worked with anyone (the SSPX, FSSP, Resistance, NO, everyone) who supported the full message of Fatima, and the SSPX had always worked with people who wanted undiluted Catholicism with novelty. Obviously pro-life movements aren’t directly religious as being against murder is the natural law and written on all men’s hearts regardless of creed, and is quite dominated by Protestants, but our presence as a pro-life rally isn’t a Protestant service, it’s a rally against the murder of babies. My wife and I have attended them where they have had Prots, NO, whoever, and we just stick together and pray our Rosary and move on. 
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    Please disregard everything I have said; I have tended to speak before fact checking.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #20 on: July 12, 2019, 11:50:52 AM »
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    • The SSPX is hosting a CMC (crypto-modernist conference).

    Fr. Wegner has been given orders to accelerate his branding campaign.


    Bp. Schnieder is Francis's faux-trad emissary.

    Michael Matt, a trad sellout, the "Alex Jones of the Catacombs".

    Mosher, Fox News...  a.k.a. "Fox Jєωs" my friends. :facepalm:


    But you won't find any true traditional Catholic personalities on the SSPX's speakers list.

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    Offline ResistanceFan

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #21 on: July 18, 2019, 10:12:57 AM »
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    • I think this is an important discussion. Some traditional Catholics are very picky, and have isolated themselves completely from the world. How far does a group have to go in the battle to be considered worthy of support? Even if that group's charter is extremely limited in scope, as others in this thread have discussed. Should we boycott a group promoting traditional Catholic hymns and music, if they fail to sort out the pope question?
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    Offline Ascetik

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #22 on: July 18, 2019, 12:01:23 PM »
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    • Looks like a good conference to me.

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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #23 on: July 18, 2019, 03:19:33 PM »
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    • The enemy of my enemy is my friend. The Crusaders happily fought alongside Greek schismatics(although, the schism was much more recent and less severe at the time, but it was still a schism nevertheless) in the first few Crusades. Refusing to cooperate at all with other Trad organisations because you don't agree with them on every minutiae, especially when said minutiae are not even relevant to the matter at hand, is just silly. You shouldn't sweep differences under the carpet, true, but you shouldn't let them get in the way of matters where those issues aren't even relevant, especially when you agree with each other on 99% of everything else. 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #24 on: July 18, 2019, 03:57:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on July 18, 2019, 03:19:33 PM
    The enemy of my enemy is my friend. The Crusaders happily fought alongside Greek schismatics(although, the schism was much more recent and less severe at the time, but it was still a schism nevertheless) in the first few Crusades. Refusing to cooperate at all with other Trad organisations because you don't agree with them on every minutiae, especially when said minutiae are not even relevant to the matter at hand, is just silly. You shouldn't sweep differences under the carpet, true, but you shouldn't let them get in the way of matters where those issues aren't even relevant, especially when you agree with each other on 99% of everything else.
    for·lorn
    /fərˈlôrn/

    2. (of an aim or endeavor) unlikely to succeed or be fulfilled; hopeless.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #25 on: July 18, 2019, 03:59:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on July 18, 2019, 03:57:06 PM
    for·lorn
    /fərˈlôrn/

    2. (of an aim or endeavor) unlikely to succeed or be fulfilled; hopeless.

    The feeling I get when I see a Seanjohnson post and hope it might be worth reading.
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    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #26 on: July 18, 2019, 04:39:49 PM »
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    • How long is the Resistance going to be meaninglessly focused on attacking the SSPX? In what positive way can the Resistance show that it is building up Tradition and contributing to the Cause of Catholic Restoration? Hardly any. 

    This was a good Conference, with many Traditional Catholic Bishops, Priests and Laity attending or supporting. Nothing to see here.

    Meanwhile, as the SSPX continues to focus on the really important work of forming Priests, fostering Vocations, caring for orphans, teaching children in schools, forming strong Catholic Families, and the like, there's a good fruit of so-called Trad-ecuмenism: If we combine the Society of St. Pius X, the Fraternity of St. Peter, and the Institute of Christ the King, Tradition is expected to have more Priests than mainstream Priests in France in just less than 20 years. https://centurioweblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/traditional-priests-in-france-until-2050.html?m=1 

    That's the only way the only important battle will be ultimately won, not by the Resistance being divisive. More Priests, more holy Priests, more strong Catholic Families, and more of everything that attracts souls to Tradition, and leads to Restoration in the Church.
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    Online Nadir

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #27 on: July 18, 2019, 04:57:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on July 18, 2019, 03:57:06 PM
    for·lorn
    /fərˈlôrn/

    2. (of an aim or endeavor) unlikely to succeed or be fulfilled; hopeless.
    Definition of ad hnominem
     
    1: appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect 

    2: marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character name rather than by an answer to the contentions made
    :facepalm:  :fryingpan:
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #28 on: July 18, 2019, 06:19:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on July 18, 2019, 04:39:49 PM
    How long is the Resistance going to be meaninglessly focused on attacking the SSPX? In what positive way can the Resistance show that it is building up Tradition and contributing to the Cause of Catholic Restoration? Hardly any.

    This was a good Conference, with many Traditional Catholic Bishops, Priests and Laity attending or supporting. Nothing to see here.

    Meanwhile, as the SSPX continues to focus on the really important work of forming Priests, fostering Vocations, caring for orphans, teaching children in schools, forming strong Catholic Families, and the like, there's a good fruit of so-called Trad-ecuмenism: If we combine the Society of St. Pius X, the Fraternity of St. Peter, and the Institute of Christ the King, Tradition is expected to have more Priests than mainstream Priests in France in just less than 20 years. https://centurioweblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/traditional-priests-in-france-until-2050.html?m=1

    That's the only way the only important battle will be ultimately won, not by the Resistance being divisive. More Priests, more holy Priests, more strong Catholic Families, and more of everything that attracts souls to Tradition, and leads to Restoration in the Church.


    XS, I totally disagree with your upbeat description of the re-branded SSPX 's activities. 
    Judas's bank account was looking very upbeat after he received his Pharisaic pay-off too.

    But your opening point was good.  What is the trad resistance doing?  And I use a lower case "r", because the Broadstair's Resistance has already thrown in the towel, as the SSPX scoops up independent chapels left & right.

    The remnant resistance needs new leadership.   Who could come forth to rally us?
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: SSPX Tradcuмania
    « Reply #29 on: July 18, 2019, 09:35:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on July 10, 2019, 05:25:43 PM
    Isn't there even an official Church teaching about this? For example, it is licit to work closely with heretics (protestants) in pro-Life endeavors. We just don't worship with them.
    Doesn't Mortalium Animos speak to this?
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