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Author Topic: SSPX Trad Culture is Near Dead  (Read 3924 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: SSPX Trad Culture is Near Dead
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2019, 09:44:57 AM »
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  • The new people to a chapel are just like the outsiders that come for someone's funeral or weddings, it is a chance for the priest and the people to snatch someone from the devil, that just happens to be there. They know nothing and have to be taught EVERYTHING, how to dress, how to live, the errors of their ways...… In short, they have to be taught truth from the get go, every second that they are there. The truth will either chase them away, of convert them FOR REAL.

    The SSPX teaches them nothing of how to LIVE the faith.

    Like I said, the priest needs to speak up boldly and defend Catholic morality and doctrine. If someone leaves because of that, then they leave. That's on them.
    The problem is when each person takes it upon himself to be the self-appointed sheriff of modesty, doctrine, etc. Each person has different standards. Sure, some outfits are cut-and-dried immodest. But there is SO MUCH grey area. Where do you draw the line?
    That's why it has to be the priest. 
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    Offline Merry

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    Re: SSPX Trad Culture is Near Dead
    « Reply #16 on: October 07, 2019, 09:55:27 AM »
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  • I understand where you're coming from, and I'm not disagreeing that the SSPX has become very worldly and is full of problems, but there is one way in which all Trad priests' hands are tied. Let me put it this way:

    What would you think about a chapel which scrutinized each potential member, treating them as non-Catholic until proven otherwise? Background checks, signing statements, written abjurations, cross examination by a panel of clerics and/or laypeople, and "guilty until proven innocent" with regards to being a "True Catholic"?

    What would you say about such a group to your friends offline and online? I guarantee you would call them a CULT and you wouldn't be far off base!

    It's even more than public relations though: what about the status of Trad chapels and Supplied Jurisdiction? Let's put it this way: the Catholic Church has NEVER been an exclusive club where the lukewarm and bad Catholics are barred at the door. If a chapel is to receive "supplied jurisdiction" from the Church to open essentially a "franchise" of the Catholic Church, don't they have to operate under the bylaws and rules of that franchise?

    Operating a franchise without permission of the franchise owner is illegal. In the world of religion, opening a branch of the Catholic Church but refusing to follow all her laws is SCHISM. You're starting your own church.

    The Catholic Church (which every single Trad chapel wants to be part of, and connected to) has ALWAYS been, from the very beginning, a net full of fishes, which the fisherman sifts through, throwing the good ones into the KEEP bucket and the crap into the slop bucket for the animals. See also: the parable of the Wheat and the Tares, "Many are called but few are chosen", etc.

    As soon as you move beyond that, and try to "improve" upon Christ's Church -- even with the best of intentions -- you begin treading the path of every "reformer" (HERETIC!) in history.
    No - Not saying to sign contracts or put them through some austere Inquisition.  But growing up Novus Ordo is much more than simply "going to the wrong Mass."  They still need to have the opportunity to see what the Catholic Church really is, the beliefs, the practices, the true culture.  A Protestant convert gets a thorough catechism course and goes through an Abjuration of Heresy before being accepted into the Church.  Novus Ordo people need some similar chance to get past the "Well I didn't know that!?" stage.  A priest is not supposed to give out Holy Communion willy-nilly.  He is actually handing out Our Lord - Incarnate.  No small responsibility, that.  The Novus Ordo person coming, through God's mercy, to the threshold of Tradition, needs to see what it is to be a real Catholic, and know what he is getting into.  By the grace of God he will persevere, as we all hope to.      
    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: SSPX Trad Culture is Near Dead
    « Reply #17 on: October 07, 2019, 10:05:42 AM »
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  • The problem is when each person takes it upon himself to be the self-appointed sheriff of modesty, doctrine, etc. ….
    That's why it has to be the priest.
    It has to be the priest. And this is what this thread is all about, the priests have gone AWOL. The SSPX priests say nothing and teach nothing about how to LIVE the faith. They perform a beautiful mass, they provide the sacraments, they teach catechism, but they do not teach how to LIVE the faith, how to apply the catechism to their lives.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX Trad Culture is Near Dead
    « Reply #18 on: October 07, 2019, 10:09:31 AM »
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  • No - Not saying to sign contracts or put them through some austere Inquisition.  But growing up Novus Ordo is much more than simply "going to the wrong Mass."  They still need to have the opportunity to see what the Catholic Church really is, the beliefs, the practices, the true culture.  A Protestant convert gets a thorough catechism course and goes through an Abjuration of Heresy before being accepted into the Church.  Novus Ordo people need some similar chance to get past the "Well I didn't know that!?" stage.  A priest is not supposed to give out Holy Communion willy-nilly.  He is actually handing out Our Lord - Incarnate.  No small responsibility, that.  The Novus Ordo person coming, through God's mercy, to the threshold of Tradition, needs to see what it is to be a real Catholic, and know what he is getting into.  By the grace of God he will persevere, as we all hope to.      
    Yes, I think the priest needs to interview them, at least informally, and in no uncertain terms "recommend" very strongly one book at a time. He needs to tell them they probably have a lot of catching up to do, while being kind, charitable, etc. But he needs to impress upon them, with gentle force, that they have an obligation to get up-to-speed. He needs to follow up with them every month and make sure they're actually following his advice/commands. If they are of good will, they won't mind. They will want to become good Catholics. If they don't care, then the priest is at least off the hook.
    God doesn't condemn anyone to Hell for acts of someone else's Free Will. What God WILL judge is "did the priest do his job?"
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: SSPX Trad Culture is Near Dead
    « Reply #19 on: October 07, 2019, 10:15:53 AM »
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  • Like I said, the priest needs to speak up boldly and defend Catholic morality and doctrine. If someone leaves because of that, then they leave. That's on them.
    But you know what? If they are not ready for the conversion and they leave, at least they will always remember what the truth was because it was taught to them. One day when they are ready, they will come back to the place where they got that truth. If however they get what the SSPX is "teaching" today, nothing but superficial Catholicism, they will be worse off, because they will believe that they know Catholicism and that it is irrelevant. That is exactly what happened to all of my family members and friends that went to Catholic schools. There is no way to convert them now, they think they know the Catholic faith already, and it is irrelevant. 


    Offline Merry

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    Re: SSPX Trad Culture is Near Dead
    « Reply #20 on: October 07, 2019, 10:22:19 AM »
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  • Yes, I think the priest needs to interview them, at least informally, and in no uncertain terms "recommend" very strongly one book at a time. He needs to tell them they probably have a lot of catching up to do, while being kind, charitable, etc. But he needs to impress upon them, with gentle force, that they have an obligation to get up-to-speed. He needs to follow up with them every month and make sure they're actually following his advice/commands. If they are of good will, they won't mind. They will want to become good Catholics. If they don't care, then the priest is at least off the hook.
    God doesn't condemn anyone to Hell for acts of someone else's Free Will. What God WILL judge is "did the priest do his job?"
    Exactly.  The chapel I usually attend has some people coming over from the local SSPX chapel because they can't stand the liberalism any more. Here there is an enforced dress code.  The priest meets any strangers to see who they are (and any "needs") before admitting them to the Sacraments, unless they are known by other parishioners who can vouch for them. Yes, charitable reading is good - whatever it takes for the circuмstance.  

    A few years ago, the previous chapel building was broken into by an open side window having its screen slit when the chapel was briefly empty.  We returned to find the tabernacle twisted on the altar - an attempt by thieves or Satanists to make off with it and its Precious Contents.  Thank God and His angels they couldn't manage it for whatever reason and took off back through the window.  (A decision was made to run a big metal chain from the inside base of the Tabernacle, down through the altar and into the floor.  Just saying as well, you don't know who is out there, and you don't know who is coming in to receive a Host.)   
    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: SSPX Trad Culture is Near Dead
    « Reply #21 on: October 07, 2019, 10:30:08 AM »
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  • By their fruits you shall know them

    If the parishioners in your chapel go about town looking like all of the other people of the world, wearing short shorts, tight jeans, tank tops with exposed belly, mini-skirts, bikinis……. If you see the young girls about town holding hands with their “boyfriends” and single girls becoming pregnant, mothers flirting with men or committing adultery…..

    Then your priest is a failure. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Trad Culture is Near Dead
    « Reply #22 on: October 07, 2019, 10:43:27 AM »
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  • Quote
    Like I said, the priest needs to speak up boldly and defend Catholic morality and doctrine. If someone leaves because of that, then they leave. That's on them.
    Exactly, but the new-sspx stopped doing that, gradually, around 8-10 years ago (and maybe much further back).  It seemed that they wanted quantity over quality (Fill the pews!  Build more chapels!  Grow, grow, grow!).  This has led to a watering-down of the faith overall, due to the "1-2 punch" of the minimizing of criticisms of new-rome in sermons ("oh, let's be positive everyone!), and the lack of integrated newcomers (which causes multiple mini-scandals among the faithful, who gradually lose the sense of orthodoxy because they are surrounded by lukewarm and conservative-in-name-only novus ordo-ites).
    .
    I'll bet if we had access to the finances, a rough estimate of laity, and chapel count metrics in 2010 vs 2018, the growth in all 3 would be way higher than expected.  This is due to the "get people in the door at all costs" policy by +Fellay.   Another example that he and his henchmen do not prioritize the Faith.


    Offline homeschoolmom

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    Re: SSPX Trad Culture is Near Dead
    « Reply #23 on: October 07, 2019, 12:40:25 PM »
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  • But you know what? If they are not ready for the conversion and they leave, at least they will always remember what the truth was because it was taught to them. One day when they are ready, they will come back to the place where they got that truth. 

    This is a point that so many don't observe or notice. People may not like the truth at first and may choose to turn away but at least they have a reference and know where to go if they want it in the future. 

    It makes me think of Our Lord and how many people turned away when He revealed the mystery of the Eucharist. He knew for a fact that people would turn away but still went ahead with the revelation. People make their choices. That doesn't mean there isn't a pastoral science to revealing difficult truths, but fear of people turning away shouldn't be that high on the list. Accept that some will always turn away and then speak for the sake of those who will stay.  

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: SSPX Trad Culture is Near Dead
    « Reply #24 on: October 07, 2019, 05:33:48 PM »
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  • I recently went to an SSPX Mass when I was visiting family recently. Lovely Church and parishoners. Thing that struck me was that the dialogue Mass was being said, and they stood for the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei.
    The Homily was about how everyone is to participate in the Ordinary loudly and joyfully, and that it would be a blessing to God's ears or something like that. It was too Novus Ordo-y for me, but this is how the many young people there are being raised on the "Traditional" Mass.

    Offline Troubled30

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    Re: SSPX Trad Culture is Near Dead
    « Reply #25 on: October 07, 2019, 06:20:17 PM »
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  • Like I said, the priest needs to speak up boldly and defend Catholic morality and doctrine. If someone leaves because of that, then they leave. That's on them.
    The problem is when each person takes it upon himself to be the self-appointed sheriff of modesty, doctrine, etc. Each person has different standards. Sure, some outfits are cut-and-dried immodest. But there is SO MUCH grey area. Where do you draw the line?
    That's why it has to be the priest.
    I agree with Mathew.
    The priest is the one in charge. In all chapels there are some old ladies that tend to be the self appointed sheriffs and sometimes are very agresive  so it's important that the priest analize the situation.
    Sometimes there are gray areas as Mathew says.



    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: SSPX Trad Culture is Near Dead
    « Reply #26 on: October 07, 2019, 06:32:42 PM »
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  • Indeed, it just takes a single rotten apple to spoil the entire bushel.  Priests should understand the downward gravity of human nature due to Original Sin.  More often, the bad ones spoil the good ones, rather than the good ones making the spoiled ones bad.  Can all the good apples in a bushel somehow unspoil the rotten apple, or does it work the other way around?  Bishop Williamson was good at explaining this, the drag caused by Original Sin, where if you're not making progress in the spiritual life, you're actually going backwards, since we're swimming against the current of Original Sin.

    But I guess that the new SSPX leadership wanted to banish the old guard "prophets of doom and gloom", the pessimism of the Williamson era, and open the windows of the SSPX to the Novus Ordo.  How did that work out after Vatican II?  But I guess they were unable to learn the lesson.
    .
    I was impressed by your consistent capitalization of "Original Sin" in this post, Ladislaus.
    Proper nouns are correctly capitalized, therefore, not spelling it so implies it's not a proper noun -- that there's more than one "original sin!"
    (BTW it was ADAM'S sin, thereby it was singular in number.)
    If you (or anyone else) knows where the practice originated of spelling it with all lower-case letters, I'd like to hear your answer.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: SSPX Trad Culture is Near Dead
    « Reply #27 on: October 07, 2019, 06:53:10 PM »
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  • The new people to a chapel are just like the outsiders that come for someone's funeral or weddings, it is a chance for the priest and the people to snatch someone from the devil, that just happens to be there. They know nothing and have to be taught EVERYTHING, how to dress, how to live, the errors of their ways...… In short, they have to be taught truth from the get go, every second that they are there. The truth will either chase them away or convert them FOR REAL.

    The SSPX teaches them nothing of how to LIVE the faith, so they remain in their errors and you have a chapel full of Sunday mass card punchers, people who go to mass, then go in live in the world their irrelevant "catholicism". The SSPX has become irrelevant.
    .
    SSPX Trad Culture is Near Dead
    The SSPX has become irrelevant
    The SSPX teaches ... nothing of how to LIVE the faith
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: SSPX Trad Culture is Near Dead
    « Reply #28 on: October 08, 2019, 10:08:12 AM »
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  • But you know what? If they are not ready for the conversion and they leave, at least they will always remember what the truth was because it was taught to them. One day when they are ready, they will come back to the place where they got that truth. If however they get what the SSPX is "teaching" today, nothing but superficial Catholicism, they will be worse off, because they will believe that they know Catholicism and that it is irrelevant. That is exactly what happened to all of my family members and friends that went to Catholic schools. There is no way to convert them now, they think they know the Catholic faith already, and it is irrelevant.
    The SSPX's only future is going to come from the individual priests who defy the SSPX hierarchy and begin to teach the laity how to LIVE the faith. If that means getting thrown out of the SSPX, so be it. The first step is for them to realize that they have been failures, and begin to CHANGE their ways.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: SSPX Trad Culture is Near Dead
    « Reply #29 on: October 08, 2019, 10:27:05 AM »
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  • I believe that the pillar, the foundation of this SSPX hierarchy mindset of not teaching how to LIVE the faith, this mindset that all that is needed is a beautiful mass, the sacraments and catechism classes, is that they believe that salvation is easy, that anyone in any religion that is a good will be saved, and that all Catholics that go to their masses will be saved just by being there and going to catechism as children. With that mindset it matters little how you dress, or if you flirt, or use contraceptives, or if you have an annulment or are divorced and re-married, ...… The SSPX hierarchy instructs their priests: "those subjects are not to be discussed or you will empty your church!"

    Compare the SSPX (and the Novus Ordo, for they are the same) mindset with the truth:


    Among adults there are few saved because of the sins of the flesh....With exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned. (St. Remigius of Rheims)


    The MAJORITY OF CATHOLICS GO TO HELL:

    The greater number of Christians today are damned. The destiny of those dying on one day is that very few  -  not as many as ten  -   went straight to Heaven; many remained in Purgatory; and THOSE CAST INTO HELL WERE NUMEROUS AS SNOWFLAKES in mid-winter. (Bl. Anna Maria Taigi)

    The Ark, which in the midst of the Flood was the symbol of the Church, was wide below and narrow above, .... It was wide where the animals were, narrow where men lived; for the Holy Church is indeed wide in number of those who are carnal minded, narrow in the number of those who are spiritual. ( Pope St. Gregory the Great)



    MOST PRIESTS GO TO HELL:

    St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople, Doctor of the Church:

    I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think., I do not think that many priests are saved but that those that perish are far more numerous. The reason is that the office requires a great soul. For there are many things to make a priest swerve from rectitude, and he requires great vigilance on every side. Do you not perceive how many qualities a bishop must have that he may be apt to teach; patient towards the wicked, firm and faithful in teaching the Word? How many difficulties herein. Moreover the loss of others is imputed to him. I need say no more. If but one dies without baptism, does it not entirely endanger his salvation? For the loss of one soul is so great an evil as no man can understand. If the salvation of one soul is of such importance that, for its sake, the Son of God became man and suffered so much, think of the penalty the loss of one soul will entail. (Third Homily, Acts of the Apostles)


    CATHOLICS NOT ASPIRING AND NOT LIVING AS SAINTS WILL GO TO HELL:

    They who are enlightened to walk in the way of perfection, and through lukewarmness wish to tread the ordinary paths, shall be abandoned. (Bl. Angela of Foligno)

    They who are to be saved as Saints, and wish to be saved as imperfect souls, shall not be saved. (Pope St. Gregory the Great)

    St. Teresa.... had she not risen from the state of lukewarmness in which she lived, she would in the end have lost the grace of God and been damned. ( St. Alphonsus Liguori)