I remember in the early 2000s when I noticed that the sspx was accepting a large number of novus ordo "converts" (this was before the motu proprio of 2008, mind you). The problem was that the sspx was not educating these people on how to be traditional. They would continue to dress casually and they were bouncing from the sspx to the novus ordo, depending on the week. The point is, the sspx was not trying to convert them, but just inviting them to come anytime they wanted. I knew this would eventually cause a problem because it would water down the Faith for others.
.
Well, now it's 2019 and we have the perfect analogy for what the sspx allowed to happen back then. It's the same thing the elites are doing to europe/US - allow a bunch of non-europe migrants into the country and what do you get after a few years? A totally changed culture; a loss of the former culture. The sspx lost its Traditionalism (this is one of many reasons) because they allowed all sorts of non-Trads into their churches, without any proper integration. Their Trad culture is now dead.
Pax Vobis posted this in another thread and it struck a cord with me, as I have observed the same at my chapel, but starting about 9 years ago. The new people were/are never taught anything about tradition, they were/are just accepted as they are. None have grown in the faith and many have retrogressed big time. The little girls that grew up during the time are now getting pregnant out of wedlock and it is spreading like a wild fire. By their deeds you shall know them. I do not know what happened to the SSPX hierarchy, but they have in a short time made the SSPX irrelevant.I just saw women in pants at todays sunday mass.
Skirts above the knees from teenagers to older ladies.That is only the tip of the iceberg, for during the week they wear short shorts, tight jeans, mini-skirts, tank tops with belly exposed, bikinis ……..
That is only the tip of the iceberg, for during the week they wear short shorts, tight jeans, mini-skirts, tank tops with belly exposed, bikinis ……..The priest see them and how they dress when they go about town, and they say NOTHING. The SSPX has become irrelevant. They teach catechism, but not how to LIVE it.
Novus Ordo people need to be treated like converts/protestants. They are no better than that. They have very little Catholicity, if at all, in their background. For sure they need a catechism course, along with checking their sacramental background (baptism). The True Faith and its beliefs and practices is way different than what the New Church offers. Such people need to catch up and adapt/convert before receiving Holy Communion. They must first be allowed to see what they are getting into and if they agree to truly be "True Catholic."
The priest see them and how they dress when they go about town, and they say NOTHING. The SSPX has become irrelevant. They teach catechism, but not how to LIVE it.
I understand where you're coming from, and I'm not disagreeing that the SSPX has become very worldly and is full of problems, but there is one way in which all Trad priests' hands are tied. Let me put it this way:This describes perfectly many a fundamentalist Protestant sect. I know because I’ve been there, done that. It doesn’t work. The SSPX and other traditional Catholic groups, ALL Catholics in fact, need to be properly catechized, not just on the facts but on the application in life outside the confines of the chapel property, but it’s nothing one can legislate by rules beyond the Church as a whole.
What would you think about a chapel which scrutinized each potential member, treating them as non-Catholic until proven otherwise? Background checks, signing statements, written abjurations, cross examination by a panel of clerics and/or laypeople, and "guilty until proven innocent" with regards to being a "True Catholic"?
What would you say about such a group to your friends offline and online? I guarantee you would call them a CULT and you wouldn't be far off base!
It's even more than public relations though: what about the status of Trad chapels and Supplied Jurisdiction? Let's put it this way: the Catholic Church has NEVER been an exclusive club where the lukewarm and bad Catholics are barred at the door. If a chapel is to receive "supplied jurisdiction" from the Church to open essentially a "franchise" of the Catholic Church, don't they have to operate under the bylaws and rules of that franchise?
Operating a franchise without permission of the franchise owner is illegal. In the world of religion, opening a branch of the Catholic Church but refusing to follow all her laws is SCHISM. You're starting your own church.
The Catholic Church (which every single Trad chapel wants to be part of, and connected to) has ALWAYS been, from the very beginning, a net full of fishes, which the fisherman sifts through, throwing the good ones into the KEEP bucket and the crap into the slop bucket for the animals. See also: the parable of the Wheat and the Tares, "Many are called but few are chosen", etc.
As soon as you move beyond that, and try to "improve" upon Christ's Church -- even with the best of intentions -- you begin treading the path of every "reformer" (HERETIC!) in history.
There is a new family at my parish, they've been there about 2 months now and this guy's wife dresses like a total hooker. 4 or 5 inch heels. Skirt mid thigh. Low cut top.We had a similar case and it turned out the wife was on the prowl, she was cheating on her husband, an adulteress. Some husbands are naïve. One has to ask themselves, why does a mother of 6, or any mother, need to dress provocatively? Well, that husband found out the answer the hard way. The way they dress is just an outward manifestation of their soul.
We had a parish picnic today and she was wearing a MINI SKIRT. A MINI SKIRT. Priests said nothing, no one said anything to her. This miniskirt was 3/4ths the way up her thigh. It's what a hooker would literally wear on the street. It's just unbelievable to me.
Sometimes I feel like I should say something but I have no idea how to approach the situation, she isn't my wife and her husband should know better. He has 6 kids and is a cradle Catholic.
But I guess that the new SSPX leadership wanted to banish the old guard "prophets of doom and gloom", the pessimism of the Williamson era, and open the windows of the SSPX to the Novus Ordo. How did that work out after Vatican II? But I guess they were unable to learn the lesson.It's Vatican II all over again, we are re-living 1965, and in the end there will be a few trads that start things all over again with independent chapels and masses in hotels etc.
It's Vatican II all over again, we are re-living 1965, and in the end there will be a few trads that start things all over again with independent chapels and masses in hotels etc.It's happening now. See: the SSPX Resistance.
We had a similar case and it turned out the wife was on the prowl, she was cheating on her husband, an adulteress. Some husbands are naïve. One has to ask themselves, why does a mother of 6, or any mother, need to dress provocatively? Well, that husband found out the answer the hard way. The way they dress is just an outward manifestation of their soul.Anyone with common sense and a basic knowledge of human nature would have seen this.
The Catholic Church (which every single Trad chapel wants to be part of, and connected to) has ALWAYS been, from the very beginning, a net full of fishes, which the fisherman sifts through, throwing the good ones into the KEEP bucket and the crap into the slop bucket for the animals. See also: the parable of the Wheat and the Tares, "Many are called but few are chosen", etc.The new people to a chapel are just like the outsiders that come for someone's funeral or weddings, it is a chance for the priest and the people to snatch someone from the devil, that just happens to be there. They know nothing and have to be taught EVERYTHING, how to dress, how to live, the errors of their ways...… In short, they have to be taught truth from the get go, every second that they are there. The truth will either chase them away or convert them FOR REAL.
As soon as you move beyond that, and try to "improve" upon Christ's Church -- even with the best of intentions -- you begin treading the path of every "reformer" (HERETIC!) in history.
The new people to a chapel are just like the outsiders that come for someone's funeral or weddings, it is a chance for the priest and the people to snatch someone from the devil, that just happens to be there. They know nothing and have to be taught EVERYTHING, how to dress, how to live, the errors of their ways...… In short, they have to be taught truth from the get go, every second that they are there. The truth will either chase them away, of convert them FOR REAL.Like I said, the priest needs to speak up boldly and defend Catholic morality and doctrine. If someone leaves because of that, then they leave. That's on them.
The SSPX teaches them nothing of how to LIVE the faith.
I understand where you're coming from, and I'm not disagreeing that the SSPX has become very worldly and is full of problems, but there is one way in which all Trad priests' hands are tied. Let me put it this way:No - Not saying to sign contracts or put them through some austere Inquisition. But growing up Novus Ordo is much more than simply "going to the wrong Mass." They still need to have the opportunity to see what the Catholic Church really is, the beliefs, the practices, the true culture. A Protestant convert gets a thorough catechism course and goes through an Abjuration of Heresy before being accepted into the Church. Novus Ordo people need some similar chance to get past the "Well I didn't know that!?" stage. A priest is not supposed to give out Holy Communion willy-nilly. He is actually handing out Our Lord - Incarnate. No small responsibility, that. The Novus Ordo person coming, through God's mercy, to the threshold of Tradition, needs to see what it is to be a real Catholic, and know what he is getting into. By the grace of God he will persevere, as we all hope to.
What would you think about a chapel which scrutinized each potential member, treating them as non-Catholic until proven otherwise? Background checks, signing statements, written abjurations, cross examination by a panel of clerics and/or laypeople, and "guilty until proven innocent" with regards to being a "True Catholic"?
What would you say about such a group to your friends offline and online? I guarantee you would call them a CULT and you wouldn't be far off base!
It's even more than public relations though: what about the status of Trad chapels and Supplied Jurisdiction? Let's put it this way: the Catholic Church has NEVER been an exclusive club where the lukewarm and bad Catholics are barred at the door. If a chapel is to receive "supplied jurisdiction" from the Church to open essentially a "franchise" of the Catholic Church, don't they have to operate under the bylaws and rules of that franchise?
Operating a franchise without permission of the franchise owner is illegal. In the world of religion, opening a branch of the Catholic Church but refusing to follow all her laws is SCHISM. You're starting your own church.
The Catholic Church (which every single Trad chapel wants to be part of, and connected to) has ALWAYS been, from the very beginning, a net full of fishes, which the fisherman sifts through, throwing the good ones into the KEEP bucket and the crap into the slop bucket for the animals. See also: the parable of the Wheat and the Tares, "Many are called but few are chosen", etc.
As soon as you move beyond that, and try to "improve" upon Christ's Church -- even with the best of intentions -- you begin treading the path of every "reformer" (HERETIC!) in history.
The problem is when each person takes it upon himself to be the self-appointed sheriff of modesty, doctrine, etc. ….It has to be the priest. And this is what this thread is all about, the priests have gone AWOL. The SSPX priests say nothing and teach nothing about how to LIVE the faith. They perform a beautiful mass, they provide the sacraments, they teach catechism, but they do not teach how to LIVE the faith, how to apply the catechism to their lives.
That's why it has to be the priest.
No - Not saying to sign contracts or put them through some austere Inquisition. But growing up Novus Ordo is much more than simply "going to the wrong Mass." They still need to have the opportunity to see what the Catholic Church really is, the beliefs, the practices, the true culture. A Protestant convert gets a thorough catechism course and goes through an Abjuration of Heresy before being accepted into the Church. Novus Ordo people need some similar chance to get past the "Well I didn't know that!?" stage. A priest is not supposed to give out Holy Communion willy-nilly. He is actually handing out Our Lord - Incarnate. No small responsibility, that. The Novus Ordo person coming, through God's mercy, to the threshold of Tradition, needs to see what it is to be a real Catholic, and know what he is getting into. By the grace of God he will persevere, as we all hope to.Yes, I think the priest needs to interview them, at least informally, and in no uncertain terms "recommend" very strongly one book at a time. He needs to tell them they probably have a lot of catching up to do, while being kind, charitable, etc. But he needs to impress upon them, with gentle force, that they have an obligation to get up-to-speed. He needs to follow up with them every month and make sure they're actually following his advice/commands. If they are of good will, they won't mind. They will want to become good Catholics. If they don't care, then the priest is at least off the hook.
Like I said, the priest needs to speak up boldly and defend Catholic morality and doctrine. If someone leaves because of that, then they leave. That's on them.But you know what? If they are not ready for the conversion and they leave, at least they will always remember what the truth was because it was taught to them. One day when they are ready, they will come back to the place where they got that truth. If however they get what the SSPX is "teaching" today, nothing but superficial Catholicism, they will be worse off, because they will believe that they know Catholicism and that it is irrelevant. That is exactly what happened to all of my family members and friends that went to Catholic schools. There is no way to convert them now, they think they know the Catholic faith already, and it is irrelevant.
Yes, I think the priest needs to interview them, at least informally, and in no uncertain terms "recommend" very strongly one book at a time. He needs to tell them they probably have a lot of catching up to do, while being kind, charitable, etc. But he needs to impress upon them, with gentle force, that they have an obligation to get up-to-speed. He needs to follow up with them every month and make sure they're actually following his advice/commands. If they are of good will, they won't mind. They will want to become good Catholics. If they don't care, then the priest is at least off the hook.Exactly. The chapel I usually attend has some people coming over from the local SSPX chapel because they can't stand the liberalism any more. Here there is an enforced dress code. The priest meets any strangers to see who they are (and any "needs") before admitting them to the Sacraments, unless they are known by other parishioners who can vouch for them. Yes, charitable reading is good - whatever it takes for the circuмstance.
God doesn't condemn anyone to Hell for acts of someone else's Free Will. What God WILL judge is "did the priest do his job?"
Like I said, the priest needs to speak up boldly and defend Catholic morality and doctrine. If someone leaves because of that, then they leave. That's on them.Exactly, but the new-sspx stopped doing that, gradually, around 8-10 years ago (and maybe much further back). It seemed that they wanted quantity over quality (Fill the pews! Build more chapels! Grow, grow, grow!). This has led to a watering-down of the faith overall, due to the "1-2 punch" of the minimizing of criticisms of new-rome in sermons ("oh, let's be positive everyone!), and the lack of integrated newcomers (which causes multiple mini-scandals among the faithful, who gradually lose the sense of orthodoxy because they are surrounded by lukewarm and conservative-in-name-only novus ordo-ites).
But you know what? If they are not ready for the conversion and they leave, at least they will always remember what the truth was because it was taught to them. One day when they are ready, they will come back to the place where they got that truth.
Like I said, the priest needs to speak up boldly and defend Catholic morality and doctrine. If someone leaves because of that, then they leave. That's on them.I agree with Mathew.
The problem is when each person takes it upon himself to be the self-appointed sheriff of modesty, doctrine, etc. Each person has different standards. Sure, some outfits are cut-and-dried immodest. But there is SO MUCH grey area. Where do you draw the line?
That's why it has to be the priest.
Indeed, it just takes a single rotten apple to spoil the entire bushel. Priests should understand the downward gravity of human nature due to Original Sin. More often, the bad ones spoil the good ones, rather than the good ones making the spoiled ones bad. Can all the good apples in a bushel somehow unspoil the rotten apple, or does it work the other way around? Bishop Williamson was good at explaining this, the drag caused by Original Sin, where if you're not making progress in the spiritual life, you're actually going backwards, since we're swimming against the current of Original Sin.
But I guess that the new SSPX leadership wanted to banish the old guard "prophets of doom and gloom", the pessimism of the Williamson era, and open the windows of the SSPX to the Novus Ordo. How did that work out after Vatican II? But I guess they were unable to learn the lesson.
The new people to a chapel are just like the outsiders that come for someone's funeral or weddings, it is a chance for the priest and the people to snatch someone from the devil, that just happens to be there. They know nothing and have to be taught EVERYTHING, how to dress, how to live, the errors of their ways...… In short, they have to be taught truth from the get go, every second that they are there. The truth will either chase them away or convert them FOR REAL.
The SSPX teaches them nothing of how to LIVE the faith, so they remain in their errors and you have a chapel full of Sunday mass card punchers, people who go to mass, then go in live in the world their irrelevant "catholicism". The SSPX has become irrelevant.
But you know what? If they are not ready for the conversion and they leave, at least they will always remember what the truth was because it was taught to them. One day when they are ready, they will come back to the place where they got that truth. If however they get what the SSPX is "teaching" today, nothing but superficial Catholicism, they will be worse off, because they will believe that they know Catholicism and that it is irrelevant. That is exactly what happened to all of my family members and friends that went to Catholic schools. There is no way to convert them now, they think they know the Catholic faith already, and it is irrelevant.The SSPX's only future is going to come from the individual priests who defy the SSPX hierarchy and begin to teach the laity how to LIVE the faith. If that means getting thrown out of the SSPX, so be it. The first step is for them to realize that they have been failures, and begin to CHANGE their ways.
I believe that the pillar, the foundation of this SSPX hierarchy mindset of not teaching how to LIVE the faith, this mindset that all that is needed is a beautiful mass, the sacraments and catechism classes, is that they believe that salvation is easy, that anyone in any religion that is a good will be saved, and that all Catholics that go to their masses will be saved just by being there and going to catechism as children. With that mindset it matters little how you dress, or if you flirt, or use contraceptives, or if you have an annulment or are divorced and re-married, ...… The SSPX hierarchy instructs their priests: "those subjects are not to be discussed or you will empty your church!"When I hear SSPX parishioners say such statements (similar to XavierSem (https://www.cathinfo.com/profile/XavierSem/)) as "The SSPX will be the salvation of the Church", "The SSPX will restore the Church", etc. I say to them "No it will not, because if the SSPX Priests are afraid to tell a 16 year old girl that she should not come to Mass wearing that short skirt and tight top, then what makes you think they will be brave enough to condemn heretical and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ bishops to their face?" Or, in other words "If the SSPX cannot convert their own "Traditional Catholic" parishioners and students from living a worldly and lukewarm life, then how will they convert those in the Novus Ordo?"
Compare the SSPX (and the Novus Ordo, for they are the same) mindset with the truth:
It's Vatican II all over again, we are re-living 1965, and in the end there will be a few trads that start things all over again with independent chapels and masses in hotels etc.You are absolutely right.
But you know what? If they are not ready for the conversion and they leave, at least they will always remember what the truth was because it was taught to them. One day when they are ready, they will come back to the place where they got that truth. If however they get what the SSPX is "teaching" today, nothing but superficial Catholicism, they will be worse off, because they will believe that they know Catholicism and that it is irrelevant. That is exactly what happened to all of my family members and friends that went to Catholic schools. There is no way to convert them now, they think they know the Catholic faith already, and it is irrelevant.You're right, because I've seen that happen many times.
Exactly, but the new-sspx stopped doing that, gradually, around 8-10 years ago (and maybe much further back).They started to change once Bishop Williamson left Winona, and then, in our local chapel, around the year 2000.
When I hear SSPX parishioners say such statements (similar to XavierSem (https://www.cathinfo.com/profile/XavierSem/)) as "The SSPX will be the salvation of the Church", "The SSPX will restore the Church", etc. I say to them "No it will not, because if the SSPX Priests are afraid to tell a 16 year old girl that she should not come to Mass wearing that short skirt and tight top, then what makes you think they will be brave enough to condemn heretical and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ bishops to their face?" Or, in other words "If the SSPX cannot convert their own "Traditional Catholic" parishioners and students from living a worldly and lukewarm life, then how will they convert those in the Novus Ordo?"
When I hear SSPX parishioners say such statements (similar to XavierSem (https://www.cathinfo.com/profile/XavierSem/)) as "The SSPX will be the salvation of the Church", "The SSPX will restore the Church", etc. I say to them "No it will not, because if the SSPX Priests are afraid to tell a 16 year old girl that she should not come to Mass wearing that short skirt and tight top, then what makes you think they will be brave enough to condemn heretical and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ bishops to their face?" Or, in other words "If the SSPX cannot convert their own "Traditional Catholic" parishioners and students from living a worldly and lukewarm life, then how will they convert those in the Novus Ordo?"