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Author Topic: Fr. Pagliarani addresses the covid vaccine question  (Read 4469 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Fr. Pagliarani addresses the covid vaccine question
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2022, 04:36:13 PM »
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  • Fr. Pagliarani actually did give the anti-vax moral position a significant weapon by way of his cornea analogy.

    He argued that it's acceptable to use the cornea from a person who was "killed" (probably meant "killed" in the sense of "murdered").

    But if the person indicates on his donor card that he does NOT wish to be an organ donor, is it still permitted, Father?  Is it permitted to steal his remains against his wishes?  This is the argument made by Father Ripperger.  That it's unlawful possession (theft) of someone else's remains against their will.

    Secondly, let's say there's a clinic down in Tijuana that puts out contracts to the drug lords to kill people off and bring their bodies in right away for organ transplants.

    Is it permissible to go down to said clinic and get a cornea from one of those bodies?  Of course not.  You are participating in an immoral enterprise.  You can't just say, "well, I don't agree with their murder operations" so it's OK for me to go get a cornea.  This is the argument made by Archbishop Vigano, and Bishop Williamson agrees with it.  Or it's like buying a car from a car lot where they specilize in stolen vehicles.  By paricipating in their immoral enterprises (either the Tijuana clinic or the stolen car dealer), you're actually a CAUSE of their immoral activity by giving them the motive or incentive, the final cause for their activity.  By your going down there, you're incentivizing them to kill even more people for organs.

    Neither one of these scenarios can be rightly classified as remote material participation.  Taking the cornea from a murder victim who designates on his donor card that he wishes to be an organ donor, that is in fact remote material cooperation.  But that is NOT what's happening here.  What's happening here is like the other two scenarios combined that I mentioned.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani addresses the covid vaccine question
    « Reply #46 on: January 06, 2022, 05:09:10 PM »
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  • Well, I listened to the speech, but tuned out of the Q&A with 4 minutes to go...

    At about 9 minutes, Fr. Pagliarani addresses the vaccine question within the context of the SSPX's mission, and in doing so, he makes a distinction between moral issues, and medical issues.  He says that because the issue of the vaccine is a medical issue, it is not relavent to the SSPX's mission, and therefore the SSPX is staying silent on the matter.  See especially at 11:20.

    There are (at least) two obvious problems with that approach:

    1) Many medical issues are inextricably intertwined with moral considerations. 

    Just as in civil life, there are matters proper to secular authority, and others proper to ecclesiastical authority (hence the doctrine of the two swords), so too are there mixed matters, in which the interests of both secular and ecclesiastical authority are present (e.g., divorce, gαy marriage, etc), and hence the doctrine of the "indirect power" of the Church.  In such cases, the ecclesiastical authority prevails, precisely because spiritual interests and issues are more pressing than secular.

    Same thing with the distinction -legitimate in itself- between medical and ecclesiastical issues: Some things are purely one or the other, but in matters which overlap, it is certainly appropriate and necessary for the Church to govern, and in fact, it always has, on a countless number of issues (e.g., ectopic pregnancies, end of life issues, abortion, and now abortion-tainted vaccines; assisted ѕυιcιdє/euthanasia, etc.). 

    Because Fr. Pagliarani is certainly aware of these mixed medical-moral issues, I am at a loss to understand how he can excuse the Society from guiding souls under the pretext that the matter of the vaccine is not pertinent to the mission of the Society.


    2) There is also the blatant contradiction between the position of Fr. Pagliarani refusing to address the morality of the vaccine on the basis of it not being pertinent to the mission of the SSPX, and the former practice of that same SSPX, whose websites, Angelus magazine, books, interviews, conferences, and other communications are replete with moral direction on an entire host of medical-moral issues.  A cursory glance at the old SSPX.org archived website reveals articles directing souls in the matter of brain death, organ harvesting, stem cell research, pain prevention, euthanasia, and even abortion-tainted vaccines: http://archives.sspx.org/articles_index.htm

    In light of the SSPX's former per se ban on receiving abortion-tainted vaccines (and declaring that the faithful would have the moral obligation to refuse them, even if state mandates required them for school enrollment), I am at a loss as to understand why the matter of medical-moral issues was once pertinent to the SSPX mission, but apparently today somehow no longer is.

    Even today, the SSPX writes in favor of the alleged moral liceity of the covid serum, but it could not do so if it really believed that such matters were beyond the scope or competence of its mission.  And that being the case, I can only conclude that Fr. Pagliarani preferred to sidestep the matter.

    A bit later, Fr. Pagliarani addresses the globalist aspect of the Plannedemic, warning us not to focus too intently upon it, because if we do so, we will miss all the other gains the enemy makes (for example, in the area of passing gαy marriage rights, etc.).  But he seems not to notice that battle is already lost.  He also seems to suggest that battles cannot be fought on more than one front.  But regardless of all that, what soldier or general would take their eyes off the most immediate and dangerous threat, to pay attention to a field which is already overrun (i.e., gαy marriage)?  The COVID scam is not yet lost, and this is most certainly where our fates (and the fates of our children) are being decided at the present moment:

    Aside from purely spiritual matters (prayer, sacraments, grace, etc.), this mixed moral issue of the vaccine mandates and covid passports (which violate the natural law) is assuredly THE battle of our times: It is a battle against the establishment of the kingdom of the Antichrist, the eradication of our Catholic religion, the slaughter of the unborn, and the fight to maintain any semblance of Christian morality on the planet.

    If Fr. Pagliarani does not see it that way, then I suspect he is missing more of his audience than he is aware (despite the polite smiles, docility, and handshakes).

    Finally, his linkage of the pro and anti-vax parties by a common principle (liberty for its own sake) required a further distinction which he seems to have overlookedmissed:

    Yes, it is true that there are those in the pro and anti-vax crowds who are opposing the prison planet in order to protect freedom for its own sake.  Nevertheless, this is not a reason to dismiss opposition outright!  For example, rather than doing that, Archbishop Vigano preferred to remind his audience in a recent conference that freedom gained for its own sake is meaningless without reference to God and his Church.  Fr. Pagliarani could have done so as well.  Instead, he seems to overlook the fact that there are many among the anti-vax side who are fighting for Christ the King, not some mere Masonic veneration of liberty. 

    Regarding liberty properly understood (i.e., the moral power to do good), it is a precondition for the reign of Christ the King, because given liberty, the Kingship of Christ has a chance to take root and spread, but this is not possible in an authoritarian nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr.  I would have expected Fr. Pagliarani to have understood that, and in fact, I believe he does.  It is therefore inexplicable to understand why he links the two together, only to dismiss opposition to the globalists as though it were unimportant, or an extremely tertiary concern.

    On the whole, the entire conference seemed like one long evasion.




    Offline Anne Evergreen

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani addresses the covid vaccine question
    « Reply #47 on: January 06, 2022, 05:35:47 PM »
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  • Thanks Gentlemen for your patience in answering my posts (in no particular order), Sean, Pax, Lad. Any other fellows I missed. Mark? (I think that was the other threads). Most appreciated and Happy Epiphany!

    Sean--your article was basically what I was looking for. Pax--Thanks, but I am in Canada and things are quite a bit different for a number of reasons, but I am glad your lawsuits are working, etc. Lad--The one response about clarifying prudence over justice goes along with Sean's post/article.

    Yeah, definitely not into the whole Priest-bashing bit at all from anyone, male or female. There seems to be an awful lot of that that happens on this forum, and there is another thread that is just reeking of it as well. I can only imagine how many others that are like that. :-( :'(

    That is definitely a danger to my spiritual life, and so I will be taking better care not to post to threads where it happens. Lord, have mercy on me!

    In my half-slumber this morning, I clicked on a bad link from here and it messed up my computer. So I will not be checking out anymore YTube links, etc. (Thanks anyway, ladies.-Yeah, not really into clicking on links where the people ask for money either. LOL. Scammers. Grifters. Con-men.)

    That's pretty much it for this thread. Lost interest in reading anything else here today except a couple of lighter and happier posts about music, the Twelve Days of Christmas, etc. Oh, I really liked the post from the person about Father John Hardon--his picture caught my eye. He reminds me and looks similar to Saint Andre--a wonderful Canadian Saint and one of our favourites.

    Happy Epiphany all! If anyone wants to come and play in the snow, it might do you a world of good. ;) Fantastic exercise, lots of fun, and super productive to dig out the driveway, clear off the vehicles, and snow blower out everything. Hubster and I had a ball, and a lot of the neighbours were out doing the same. We were all chatting and bellyaching good-naturedly, and laughing. One big snow shoveling party. FUN! 

    There's a whack of snowbanks everywhere about 15' high! Came in, had some soup, chalked the door for Epiphany, and had some Pannetone. God is good! His creation is amazing! You can't enjoy it if you are online all the time, just sayin.' But whatever floats your boat. It would be really boring in life if we were all the same. ;)

    Later Y'all! Off to listen to some beautiful Christmas music. Without peace in my soul, nothing else matters. I sadly don't seem to find that uplifting joy to help maintain it too often reading these boards. I am grateful for my amazing and patient husband, all of my crosses, and all of my blessings, and a few wonderful real-life friends, even if they are hours away.
    God bless, Anne

    P.S. Be assured of my prayers. :-) Sorry I screwed up the font again, lol. 

    "The world is thy ship, and not thy home."--The Little Flower

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani addresses the covid vaccine question
    « Reply #48 on: January 06, 2022, 05:52:56 PM »
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  • Here’s what Fr.Pagliarini needs.:fryingpan:
    IOW, don’t look to the SSPX for moral guidance or for support in upholding Catholic morals.

    Quite honestly, I know a Baptist minister who is crystal clear in opposing the vaccines and explains it in two concise paragraphs.  He’s given his congregation letters for employers and school authorities.
    I also know of an Orthodox rabbi who has taken the same stand. He also provides letters for his congregants. 
    Fr. Pagliarini, the SSPX bishops, and a good number of the priests should be ashamed of themselves.  They’ve been shown up by Baptists and Jєωs!  Yes
    Yes, I agree.  Sspx hierarchy is lukewarm.  We do have Brave SSPX priests who been fighting jabs mandated jabs before covid and during. Were they invited to speak??? They won in court too.  Good priests like them need our prayers. Prayers also for brave Baptist ministers and Jєωιѕн rabbis who fight against the demonic jab. 




    To live with the Saints in Heaven is all bliss and glory....To live with the saints on Earth is just another story!  (unknown)

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani addresses the covid vaccine question
    « Reply #49 on: January 06, 2022, 06:31:12 PM »
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  • Yes, it is very immoral to take covid jabs.  
    To live with the Saints in Heaven is all bliss and glory....To live with the saints on Earth is just another story!  (unknown)


    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani addresses the covid vaccine question
    « Reply #50 on: January 06, 2022, 06:34:29 PM »
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  • Thanks Gentlemen for your patience in answering my posts (in no particular order), Sean, Pax, Lad. Any other fellows I missed. Mark? (I think that was the other threads). Most appreciated and Happy Epiphany!

    Sean--your article was basically what I was looking for. Pax--Thanks, but I am in Canada and things are quite a bit different for a number of reasons, but I am glad your lawsuits are working, etc. Lad--The one response about clarifying prudence over justice goes along with Sean's post/article.

    Yeah, definitely not into the whole Priest-bashing bit at all from anyone, male or female. There seems to be an awful lot of that that happens on this forum, and there is another thread that is just reeking of it as well. I can only imagine how many others that are like that. :-( :'(

    That is definitely a danger to my spiritual life, and so I will be taking better care not to post to threads where it happens. Lord, have mercy on me!

    In my half-slumber this morning, I clicked on a bad link from here and it messed up my computer. So I will not be checking out anymore YTube links, etc. (Thanks anyway, ladies.-Yeah, not really into clicking on links where the people ask for money either. LOL. Scammers. Grifters. Con-men.)

    That's pretty much it for this thread. Lost interest in reading anything else here today except a couple of lighter and happier posts about music, the Twelve Days of Christmas, etc. Oh, I really liked the post from the person about Father John Hardon--his picture caught my eye. He reminds me and looks similar to Saint Andre--a wonderful Canadian Saint and one of our favourites.

    Happy Epiphany all! If anyone wants to come and play in the snow, it might do you a world of good. ;) Fantastic exercise, lots of fun, and super productive to dig out the driveway, clear off the vehicles, and snow blower out everything. Hubster and I had a ball, and a lot of the neighbours were out doing the same. We were all chatting and bellyaching good-naturedly, and laughing. One big snow shoveling party. FUN! 

    There's a whack of snowbanks everywhere about 15' high! Came in, had some soup, chalked the door for Epiphany, and had some Pannetone. God is good! His creation is amazing! You can't enjoy it if you are online all the time, just sayin.' But whatever floats your boat. It would be really boring in life if we were all the same. ;)

    Later Y'all! Off to listen to some beautiful Christmas music. Without peace in my soul, nothing else matters. I sadly don't seem to find that uplifting joy to help maintain it too often reading these boards. I am grateful for my amazing and patient husband, all of my crosses, and all of my blessings, and a few wonderful real-life friends, even if they are hours away.
    God bless, Anne

    P.S. Be assured of my prayers. :-) Sorry I screwed up the font again, lol.
    Yes, today is the Epiphany which is Feast of the Three Kings.  
    To live with the Saints in Heaven is all bliss and glory....To live with the saints on Earth is just another story!  (unknown)

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani addresses the covid vaccine question
    « Reply #51 on: January 06, 2022, 06:54:18 PM »
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  • Shame that the Consiliar Bishop Schneider gets it and Fr Pagliarani does not

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani addresses the covid vaccine question
    « Reply #52 on: January 06, 2022, 09:03:40 PM »
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  • Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani addresses the covid vaccine question
    « Reply #53 on: January 06, 2022, 09:17:53 PM »
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  • Here's a study out of the Big Ten where they found that 50% of their top athletes showed signs of myocarditis on MRIs.  People are going to be dropping of heart attacks and strokes with increasing frequency the next few years.

    https://wethepundit.com/wow-cardiac-mri-of-the-elite-athletes-around-50-had-myocarditis-that-wasnt-known-by-symptoms/

    Offline trento

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani addresses the covid vaccine question
    « Reply #54 on: January 07, 2022, 12:24:07 AM »
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  • Yes, I agree.  Sspx hierarchy is lukewarm.  We do have Brave SSPX priests who been fighting jabs mandated jabs before covid and during. Were they invited to speak??? They won in court too.  Good priests like them need our prayers. Prayers also for brave Baptist ministers and Jєωιѕн rabbis who fight against the demonic jab.
    I think you conveniently forgot that the the priests who won the court cases fought on the basis of the US Constitution on religious freedom.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani addresses the covid vaccine question
    « Reply #55 on: January 07, 2022, 04:18:54 AM »
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  • At the bottom it says the source is from 2006, which is impossible. what is the source?
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani addresses the covid vaccine question
    « Reply #56 on: January 07, 2022, 06:16:16 AM »
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  • At the bottom it says the source is from 2006, which is impossible. what is the source?

    The source regards the myocarditis stats, not the jab mortality timetable.

    Online DustyActual

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani addresses the covid vaccine question
    « Reply #57 on: January 07, 2022, 09:51:29 AM »
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  • I think you conveniently forgot that the the priests who won the court cases fought on the basis of the US Constitution on religious freedom
    The priests reject religious liberty but they were using the constitution to argue against closing the churches. They were not accepting religious liberty in principle.
    Go to Jesus through Our Lady.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani addresses the covid vaccine question
    « Reply #58 on: January 07, 2022, 09:54:33 AM »
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  • The source regards the myocarditis stats, not the jab mortality timetable.
    What is the link where you got it?
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Pagliarani addresses the covid vaccine question
    « Reply #59 on: January 07, 2022, 09:57:31 AM »
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  • No link; the meme was emailed to me.