Author Topic: SSPX Spokesman: If the General Superior Agrees, The Society Will Come Along (Read 23348 times)

Kephapaulos · « **Reply #15 on:** October 02, 2011, 10:14:35 PM »

I think this thread should be in the Crisis forum because it does touch on the Church crisis.

We must trust in God's will and pray that it be done simply concerning the state of affairs between Rome and the SSPX.

It is still uncertain what may happen. It would seem that the SSPX having a canonical status would be beneficial for all, but at the same time there has to be still caution concerning the fact that Rome is still plagued by modernism. We will find out what happens this coming Friday.

Kephapaulos · « **Reply #16 on:** October 02, 2011, 10:16:28 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

You say one thing and do another when the time comes to present a fait accompli. They presume they have the financial levers over the priests and the complacency and drift towards liberalism of the laity to ensure their success. Machiavellian politics. Only they don't understand that they aren't princes and that no one fears them.

This may well just be a trial-balloon. But the pattern is definitely set now for an eventual agreement, ever since the lifting of the excommunications.

"motu propriu"

"decree lifting the excommunications"

"doctrinal preamble"

Propagandistic keywords that are designed to create a sense of inevitability.

Let us be careful, though, Telesphorus, concerning people's intentions. They can be hard to determine.

Kephapaulos · « **Reply #17 on:** October 02, 2011, 10:17:47 PM »

I just realized we have an edit function again. I used it right now, as a matter of fact.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #18 on:** October 02, 2011, 10:18:35 PM »

Quote from: Kephapaulos

Let us be careful, though, Telesphorus, concerning people's intentions. They can be hard to determine.

Careful about the intentions of someone who hires Krah?

Careful about the intentions of the "masonic lodge" that is the Vatican?

Careful about the intentions of someone who says one thing one year - what hardliners want to hear, and suddenly starts to change his tune?

We should be extremely careful of IGNORING what is OBVIOUS to the DOOM of TRADITIONALISM.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #19 on:** October 02, 2011, 10:20:48 PM »

It isn't true that intentions can't be judged. That is a sophism and really a lie that has been spread.

The problem with the SSPX is that it started to become all about the SSPX and stopped being about being Catholic.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #20 on:** October 02, 2011, 10:27:54 PM »

One thing is obvious. Most of these people who tell you to never judge the intentions of the priests are ALWAYS judging the intentions of their critics. They are complete hypocrites on that point.

Kephapaulos · « **Reply #21 on:** October 02, 2011, 10:39:26 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

It isn't true that intentions can't be judged. That is a sophism and really a lie that has been spread.

The problem with the SSPX is that it started to become all about the SSPX and stopped being about being Catholic.

I did not say intentions cannot be judged. I said that they can be hard to determine. You really do not know for sure unless the person reveals them to you, or if it is actually plainly obvious. I am not saying the SSPX has made the best decisions necessarily in the past few years, but remember, Telesphorus, that nobody is perfect. The SSPX is not the Church itself. It is only a branch. Whether or not it fails is ultimately irrelevant because God's Church will persevere and continue onward till the end of time. The Church will be restored in whatever manner it will be restored. We know not when or how the Church will be restored and triumph once more before the end of time, but we must simply pray and live in God's grace. I also do not see why you are so concerned about this if you do not attend a SSPX chapel anymore.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #22 on:** October 02, 2011, 10:44:32 PM »

Quote from: Kephapaulos

I did not say intentions cannot be judged. I said that they can be hard to determine. You really do not know for sure unless the person reveals them to you, or if it is actually plainly obvious. I am not saying the SSPX has made the best decisions necessarily in the past few years, but remember, Telesphorus, that nobody is perfect. The SSPX is not the Church itself. It is only a branch. Whether or not it fails is ultimately irrelevant because God's Church will persevere and continue onward till the end of time. The Church will be restored in whatever manner it will be restored. We know not when or how the Church will be restored and triumph once more before the end of time, but we must simply pray and live in God's grace.

No, it is possible to know with moral certainty intentions even if someone does not reveal them. It's not true, in other words, what you're saying.

Quote

I also do not see why you are so concerned about this if you do not attend a SSPX chapel anymore.

That's not by choice that I don't attend. Precisely because of the unjust way those dishonest priests kicked me out, I will continue to do what I can to help people understand just where they are leading all those traditional Catholics. It's a responsibility.

They'll never hear the end of me until I'm convinced of their good faith.

They've made a grievous mistake.

Kephapaulos · « **Reply #23 on:** October 02, 2011, 10:49:33 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: Kephapaulos
I did not say intentions cannot be judged. I said that they can be hard to determine. You really do not know for sure unless the person reveals them to you, or if it is actually plainly obvious. I am not saying the SSPX has made the best decisions necessarily in the past few years, but remember, Telesphorus, that nobody is perfect. The SSPX is not the Church itself. It is only a branch. Whether or not it fails is ultimately irrelevant because God's Church will persevere and continue onward till the end of time. The Church will be restored in whatever manner it will be restored. We know not when or how the Church will be restored and triumph once more before the end of time, but we must simply pray and live in God's grace.

No, it is possible to know with moral certainty intentions even if someone does not reveal them. It's not true, in other words, what you're saying.

Quote
I also do not see why you are so concerned about this if you do not attend a SSPX chapel anymore.

That's not by choice that I don't attend. Precisely because of the unjust way those dishonest priests kicked me out, I will continue to do what I can to help people understand just where they are leading all those traditional Catholics. It's a responsibility.

They'll never hear the end of me until I'm convinced of their good faith.

They've made a grievous mistake.

Well, when an intention is obvious, it can be judged, but they can complicated. I could do A but at first intended to do B and something to do with A. It really depends. We will know with more certainty what happens on October 7.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #24 on:** October 02, 2011, 11:25:07 PM »

Someone who kisses a koran is doing the same thing as someone who offered incense to idols. Publicly committing apostasy. Except it is almost certainly much much worse to kiss a koran than offer incense to idols because of fear.

Only a relativist, someone who thinks Christian morality changes can think otherwise.

An example:

If a woman raise her eyes to you and looks steadily at you, smiling with an unmistakable expression of allurement, then it is absolutely possible to judge that the intention to allure is there. Whether the woman works in a strip club or dresses modestly at church, one can judge with moral certainty that the intention to allure is there.

Anyone who says otherwise is a liar or a twit.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #25 on:** October 02, 2011, 11:34:08 PM »

Quote

May Saint John Baptist protect Islam

This is public apostasy!

There is no question.

Max · « **Reply #26 on:** October 03, 2011, 12:31:34 AM »

I have never heard anyone state this absolute fact, which is so very obvious.

The situation stands exactly like this: The Holy Roman Catholic Church, headed by the Pope in Rome, His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, has presented a docuмent to the Pius X Society stating exactly what must be believed, unequivocally, ie. given full assent of the will, in order to be a member of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. They were given the non-negotiables.There's no hedging. There's no arguing. There's no equivocating. There is only "yes" or "no." That's it. And there's no going back.

If the Pius X Society refuses to sign, they clearly have moved outside of the Church and can not make any sort of claim to the contrary.

If they do not sign, they have undeniably broken with Rome, they are formally in schism, and are unlikely to ever return to communion with Rome again.

I may not be correct on this, but I do believe that most of the Pius X Society would abandon the Society and return to the Church of Rome under these conditions.

I believe that Archbishop Lefebvre would sign under these conditions.

If you deny even one article of the non-negotiables, that's it, you're out and so is your soul.

Essentially, the Pius X Society does NOT HAVE A CHOICE. If they want to continue to claim that they are the true Catholic Church, and continue to consider themselves Catholic, they MUST sign.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #27 on:** October 03, 2011, 12:35:33 AM »

To such demands one can simply reiterate what Archbishop Lefebvre said.

No one can lose sleep over "excommunications" of the former "Prefect without Faith"(Si Si No No) whose book, as Bishop Tissier says, contains "many heresies"

The successor of the Koran kisser who called upon St. John the Baptist to protect Islam, and someone claims that those who do not accept his preamble are outside the church?

I dare say it will be a cold day in hell before anyone is publicly excommunicated for covering that "preamble" with scorn.

Max · « **Reply #28 on:** October 03, 2011, 12:50:09 AM »

Calling it a "Preamble" as if it is just some random docuмent like any other is ignoring the contents of the "Preamble" which have been clearly revealed to us.

We do not know the specifics, but we do know with certainty that the official Church has stated that the Preamble contains the things which "must" be believed in order to be a Roman Catholic. This isn't the same thing as a single individual who denies this or that teaching, which may or may not be considered an infallible doctrine. This is The Chruch, with a Capital C, stating to an entire, organized, body of dissenters, with their own history, hierarchy, Creed, etc., exactly what they have to believe in order to be a Catholic.

Clearly, if THEY REFUSE TO AGREE OR ASSENT TO THESE OFFICIAL DOGMAS, THEY ARE NO LONGER MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH IN ANY SORT OF WAY.

The entire situation will have changed, irrevocably, and undeniably.

They will no longer be able to have masses which Catholics can attend.
They will never be able to claim that their Sacraments are valid.
They will essentially have entered the realm of the Protestants and the Eastern Church.
They will be out and no more chances.

THEY HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO SIGN. THIS IS ALL JUST SOME SORT OF GAME THEY ARE PLAYING FOR THE BENEFIT OF THEIR MEMBERS.

Kephapaulos · « **Reply #29 on:** October 03, 2011, 12:56:25 AM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Someone who kisses a koran is doing the same thing as someone who offered incense to idols. Publicly committing apostasy. Except it is almost certainly much much worse to kiss a koran than offer incense to idols because of fear.

Only a relativist, someone who thinks Christian morality changes can think otherwise.

An example:

If a woman raise her eyes to you and looks steadily at you, smiling with an unmistakable expression of allurement, then it is absolutely possible to judge that the intention to allure is there. Whether the woman works in a strip club or dresses modestly at church, one can judge with moral certainty that the intention to allure is there.

Anyone who says otherwise is a liar or a twit.

I agree with the example you gave about a woman giving an alluring look, and that is what I mean when one can tell if an intention is obviously there. In the end though, actions and their fruits matter even more.

Whatever the intentions are that could be involved in the Pope kissing the Koran would, of course, sadly not be good, whether out of malice or weakness. A Catholic can have good intentions in doing so by mistakenly thinking that one can win over infidel by compromising or showing respect to their false religion, but that does not mean such intentions are directed properly. Again: actions and their fruits matter even more.

Remember also that the way to Hell is paved with good intentions as the saying goes.