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Author Topic: SSPX slides further down the slippery slope  (Read 1841 times)

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Offline Mr G

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SSPX slides further down the slippery slope
« on: May 08, 2017, 10:38:11 AM »
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  • From Louis Verichio: https://akacatholic.com/sspx-slides-further-down-the-slippery-slope/

    The Society of St. Pius X has chosen, for whatever reason, to lend its voice to an excerpt taken from a presentation given by Claudio Pierantoni at the laity-led conference on Amoris Laetitia held in Rome on April 22nd.

    The article, published on the SSPX News website under the title, Why is the pope silent on the dubia, offers some disturbing observations.
    “What is obvious in the current situation is precisely the basic doctrinal distortion which, even though it cleverly avoids any directly heterodox formula, nevertheless consistently maneuvers so as to attack not only some dogmas in particular such as the indissolubility of marriage and the objectivity of the moral law, but also the very idea of sure doctrine and, with it, the very person of Christ as Logos (Word of God).”

    What we’re witnessing here is the proverbial “slippery slope” in action.

    Recall that Fr. Jean-Michel Gleize, in his multi-part series of articles on Amoris Laetitia, concluded that the text and its author merely “promote heresy” as opposed to putting forward actual heresy (by his definition, “that which constitutes a rejection or a questioning of the revealed truth that is proposed by the infallible Magisterium of the Church.”)

    Now, the SSPX is giving credence to the idea that Amoris Laetitia is not only free of heresy; it is “obvious” that it doesn’t even contain “any directly heterodox formula.”

    Even though this horse has been well and truly beaten to death on these pages, it is necessary to consider the following limited examples yet again:
    – “One may be in a concrete situation which does not allow him or her to act differently than to knowingly persist in the mortal sins of adultery and fornication.” (cf AL 301, in opposition to Council of Trent, Session VI, Chapter XV)

    – “At times, persisting in the mortal sins of adultery and fornication is the most generous response which can be given to God.” (cf AL 303, in opposition to Council of Trent, Session VI, Canon XVIII)

    – “At times, God Himself asks us to persist in the mortal sins of adultery and fornication.” (cf AL 303, in opposition to Council of Trent, Session VI, Chapter XVI, Canon VI)

    Now, you tell me, are the three citations taken from Amoris Laetitia “directly heterodox” in their formulation or not?
    The answer is indeed “obvious.”

    So why, then, is the SSPX, via its promotion of this regrettable article, instructing not only its own faithful, but Catholics the world over, otherwise; as if (let me guess) the citations above merely “promote” heterodoxy?

    It seems to me that the Society of St. Pius X, as initially made evident in its publication of Fr. Gleize’s articles, has placed itself on a slippery slope that cannot but lead progressively further away from clarity and conviction.
    Oh, but the article does go on to say that its formulas consistently maneuver so as to attack certain dogmas, the moral law, and even the very idea of sure doctrine!

    Yes, it does, but think about it…

    If the text of Amoris Laetitia does all of this, does that not mean that it necessarily contains that which is “directly heterodox”?
    Of course it does!

    And so the question that one must ask is why does Mr. Pierantoni – and more importantly, the SSPX – feel compelled to engage in this hair-splitting high wire act as opposed to simply calling a spade a “spade,” heresy “heresy,” and a heretic a “heretic,” etc.?

    I don’t know the answer to that question, but I do know this:
    The truth is straightforward. Defending it is likewise simple. Equivocating for error, however, is quite another story.
    As this latest posting by the SSPX aptly demonstrates, the latter requires all manner of contortion and contradiction, and it’s an effort that will even go so far as to make excuses for the enemies of Christ:
    “And the Pope himself is the first victim of this doctrinal distortion, even though—and this is a hypothesis on my part—he is not very aware of it, and he is the victim of a general historical alienation that affects large sectors of theological teaching.”

    Remember that under discussion here is Amoris Laetitia and Francis’ unwillingness to formally respond to the dubia.
    And with this in mind, we’re being asked to believe that Francis is a victim? A victim!

    Where does this Claudio Pierantoni person come off hypothesizing about what Francis is aware of or not, and worse, suggesting that he is simply the victim of a poor formation?

    (As if that excuse couldn’t be applied to damn near everyone who was educated under the dark shadow of the Council.)
    More importantly, why is the Society of St. Pius X putting its stamp of approval on such garbage; thus doing a grave injustice to its namesake?
    I’ve said this many times with regard to Amoris Laetitia, but clearly it bears repeating:

    No one has the right, or the authority, to make subjective judgments concerning the interior disposition of souls and matters of culpability.
    Whether, or to what degree, Jorge Bergoglio may be a victim of the age, God alone is judge. sense of his statements Our task is simply to assess the objective and writings.

    All of this having been said, it is not altogether surprising that the SSPX is now disseminating the rubbish found in Mr. Pierantoni’s presentation.
    After all, a key component of Fr. Gleize’s quasi-defense of Amoris Laetitia involved yet another subjective judgement that is beyond the scope of mere mortals – in his case, the determination that Francis’ “intent” somehow exonerates him from the charge of heresy.
    At this, let’s return to Claudio Pierantoni’s commentary where we will witness the art of contradiction at its finest:

    “In this situation the dubia, these five questions presented by four cardinals, put the Pope in an impasse. If he answered by denying the Tradition and the Magisterium of his predecessors, he would be formally considered heretical, and therefore he cannot do that. If, instead, he answered in keeping with the previous Magisterium, he would contradict a considerable part of the main doctrinal actions that he has taken during his pontificate…”

    Let’s apply basic logic to this statement.

    If Mr. Pierantoni is correct, if Francis was to answer the dubia simply by applying sacred Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church to its questions, the light of truth would be shone on “the main doctrinal actions that he has taken during his pontificate” and “he would be formally considered heretical.”
    On this note, he is quite right!

    And yet he also states that Amoris Laetitia  “cleverly avoids any directly heterodox formula.” Like I said, the art of contradiction at its finest.
    Look, the fact of the matter is we need not wait for Francis to act in order to apply sacred Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church to the dubia and by extension to Amoris Laetitia and its author.

    In fact, we are obligated  to do so; both for our own good and for the good of those in our charge. If we simply do this, revealed in the process is nothing less than heresy.

    In spite of his evident disorientation, even Mr. Pierantoni gets this right.
    How many more souls must perish before the Society of St. Pius X does what must be done and warns the world accordingly?


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: SSPX slides further down the slippery slope
    « Reply #1 on: May 08, 2017, 12:34:00 PM »
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  • "But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth." (Apoc 3:16)
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: SSPX slides further down the slippery slope
    « Reply #2 on: May 08, 2017, 01:36:26 PM »
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  • The SSPX priests are taught to aspire to be, to admire theologians. I have never heard a theologian call another theologian a heretic. A modernist is a heretic by definition. All the Vatican II popes were/are modernists. The SSPX has never called any Vatican II pope, cardinal, or bishop a heretic. Have they called anyone of  importance a heretic?

    The SSPX has proven to be just another controlled "right", like the Fraternity of St. Peter, The Remnant, Fr. Gruner, Catholic Family News, EWTN...........


    If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it must be a duck. Anyone that does not at least call the present claimant to the papacy a heretic, has lost their savor and are only good to be trampled upon.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: SSPX slides further down the slippery slope
    « Reply #3 on: May 08, 2017, 01:43:13 PM »
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  • – “At times, persisting in the mortal sins of adultery and fornication is the most generous response which can be given to God.” (Amoris Laetitia 303)

    – “At times, God Himself asks us to persist in the mortal sins of adultery and fornication.” (Amoris Laetitia 303)
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: SSPX slides further down the slippery slope
    « Reply #4 on: May 08, 2017, 02:23:36 PM »
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  • The SSPX priests are taught to aspire to be, to admire theologians. I have never heard a theologian call another theologian a heretic. A modernist is a heretic by definition. All the Vatican II popes were/are modernists. The SSPX has never called any Vatican II pope, cardinal, or bishop a heretic. Have they called anyone of  importance a heretic?

    The SSPX has proven to be just another controlled "right", like the Fraternity of St. Peter, The Remnant, Fr. Gruner, Catholic Family News, EWTN...........


    If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it must be a duck. Anyone that does not at least call the present claimant to the papacy a heretic, has lost their savor and are only good to be trampled upon.
    FYI: Fr. Gruner was not a "controlled right". He has called some in the Church hierarchy material heretics and had his doubts that Pope Francis was really a pope or was really a Catholic. I think he shows his doubts here:

    Questions about Pope Francis - YouTube
    ▶ 13:51




    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: SSPX slides further down the slippery slope
    « Reply #5 on: May 08, 2017, 04:38:50 PM »
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  • The SSPX is "spinning" for Francis.

    This one time religious organization has prostituted itself.

    Never again can they claim to represent "traditional Catholicism".
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: SSPX slides further down the slippery slope
    « Reply #6 on: May 08, 2017, 04:47:21 PM »
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  • FYI: Fr. Gruner was not a "controlled right". He has called some in the Church hierarchy material heretics and had his doubts that Pope Francis was really a pope or was really a Catholic. I think he shows his doubts here
    "I think he shows his doubts here" - that does not cut it, besides he had 2 years after that to speak and he never said anything. The Remnant and CFN both continue with the same as Fr. Gruner. I donated money to Fr. Gruner, The Remnant and CFN, but I have to admit that they proved to be leashed barking dogs. 
    Fr. Gruner never declared any pope a heretic, he had strong words for Ratzinger under JPII, but when he became pope, silence. JPII, B-16 , Bergolio are all the same, JPII being the worst because he started it all, and lasted the longest. Yet, Fr. Gruner never said anything against any of them. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: SSPX slides further down the slippery slope
    « Reply #7 on: May 08, 2017, 04:50:15 PM »
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  • – “At times, persisting in the mortal sins of adultery and fornication is the most generous response which can be given to God.” (Amoris Laetitia 303)

    – “At times, God Himself asks us to persist in the mortal sins of adultery and fornication.” (Amoris Laetitia 303)

    Where did you get this information?  Source please....
    I checked this against the Amoris Laetitia from Papal Encyclicals Online and I could not find the quotes you listed.  
    Read Amoris Laetitia 303, like the source in the article lists, I did. It says what the article clearly spells out, but in muted language.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: SSPX slides further down the slippery slope
    « Reply #8 on: May 08, 2017, 04:55:53 PM »
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  • AL 303 says this:

    303. Recognizing the influence of such concrete factors, we can add that individual conscience needs to be better incorporated into the Church’s praxis in certain situations which do not objectively embody our understanding of marriage. Naturally, every effort should be made to encourage the development of an enlightened conscience, formed and guided by the responsible and serious discernment of one’s pastor, and to encourage an ever greater trust in God’s grace. Yet conscience can do more than recognize that a given situation does not correspond objectively to the overall demands of the Gospel. It can also recognize with sincerity and honesty what for now is the most generous response which can be given to God, and come to see with a certain moral security that it is what God himself is asking amid the concrete complexity of one’s limits, while yet not fully the objective ideal. In any event, let us recall that this discernment is dynamic; it must remain ever open to new stages of growth and to new decisions which can enable the ideal to be more fully realized. 

    https://w2.vatican.va/content/dam/francesco/pdf/apost_exhortations/docuмents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20160319_amoris-laetitia_en.pdf

    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: SSPX slides further down the slippery slope
    « Reply #9 on: May 08, 2017, 04:58:21 PM »
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  • – “At times, persisting in the mortal sins of adultery and fornication is the most generous response which can be given to God.” (Amoris Laetitia 303)

    – “At times, God Himself asks us to persist in the mortal sins of adultery and fornication.” (Amoris Laetitia 303)
    303. Recognizing the influence of such concrete factors, we can add that individual conscience needs to be better incorporated into the Church’s praxis in certain situations which do not objectively embody our understanding of marriage. Naturally, every effort should be made to encourage the development of an enlightened conscience, formed and guided by the responsible and serious discernment of one’s pastor, and to encourage an ever greater trust in God’s grace. Yet conscience can do more than recognize that a given situation does not correspond objectively to the overall demands of the Gospel. It can also recognize with sincerity and honesty what for now is the most generous response which can be given to God, and come to see with a certain moral security that it is what God himself is asking amid the concrete complexity of one’s limits, while yet not fully the objective ideal. In any event, let us recall that this discernment is dynamic; it must remain ever open to new stages of growth and to new decisions which can enable the ideal to be more fully realized.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: SSPX slides further down the slippery slope
    « Reply #10 on: May 08, 2017, 05:05:51 PM »
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  • Thanks, last Tradican. I wanted to find the words to highlight but, having read that paragraph, my head was too fuzzy.  :facepalm:

    individual conscience needs to be better incorporated into the Church’s praxis in certain situations which do not objectively embody our understanding of marriage.

    Does that mean that marriage could possibly be between two people of the same sex, if their consciences allow it?
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX slides further down the slippery slope
    « Reply #11 on: May 08, 2017, 07:05:53 PM »
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  • AL 303 says this:

    303. Recognizing the influence of such concrete factors, we can add that individual conscience needs to be better incorporated into the Church’s praxis in certain situations which do not objectively embody our understanding of marriage. Naturally, every effort should be made to encourage the development of an enlightened conscience, formed and guided by the responsible and serious discernment of one’s pastor, and to encourage an ever greater trust in God’s grace. Yet conscience can do more than recognize that a given situation does not correspond objectively to the overall demands of the Gospel. It can also recognize with sincerity and honesty what for now is the most generous response which can be given to God, and come to see with a certain moral security that it is what God himself is asking amid the concrete complexity of one’s limits, while yet not fully the objective ideal. In any event, let us recall that this discernment is dynamic; it must remain ever open to new stages of growth and to new decisions which can enable the ideal to be more fully realized.

    https://w2.vatican.va/content/dam/francesco/pdf/apost_exhortations/docuмents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20160319_amoris-laetitia_en.pdf

    What a load of psychobabble! I might just be tired, but I barely understood any of that. The main point, or what they were trying to convey, certainly eluded me. 

    Our Lord, the Apostles, and the Saints down through the ages were never so convoluted in their speech...
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    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: SSPX slides further down the slippery slope
    « Reply #12 on: May 08, 2017, 07:24:46 PM »
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  • Where did you get this information?  Source please....
    I checked this against the Amoris Laetitia from Papal Encyclicals Online and I could not find the quotes you listed.  

    I want to ask the same question. You gave two quotes, and they don't show in the docuмent. Why did you put double quotes around them?
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: SSPX slides further down the slippery slope
    « Reply #13 on: May 08, 2017, 07:30:11 PM »
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  • I want to ask the same question. You gave two quotes, and they don't show in the docuмent. Why did you put double quotes around them?
    I answered  "the same question" to the other gentleman. Read my response there. I highlighted the parts directly on LT303

    re: Why did you put double quotes around them? - all I did was copy and paste the exact quotes made by the OP.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: SSPX slides further down the slippery slope
    « Reply #14 on: May 08, 2017, 07:35:24 PM »
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  • What a load of psychobabble! I might just be tired, but I barely understood any of that. The main point, or what they were trying to convey, certainly eluded me.

    That is the beauty of the OP, it shines a light on it. Now we know. Do we need to know anymore?
    The SSPX has lost its savor. They are good only to be trampled upon.

    "You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt lose its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is good for nothing any more but to be cast out, and to be trodden on by men." (Mat 5:13) 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24