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Author Topic: SSPX Simony  (Read 8567 times)

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Offline epiphany

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Re: SSPX Simony
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2022, 01:06:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 09, 2022, 11:46:27 AM
    I'm in communication right now with a person who paid his $800 fee nearly a year ago for the Gregorian Masses from SSPX.  He was told they would be scheduled and he would be notified of when.  Nearly a year has passed, and he hasn't heard a peep out of them.  What, are they accepting Mass fees years ahead of time to finance their Seminary and St. Mary's Church?
    I went through this recently.  I avoided any trad priest who required a certain amount.
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: SSPX Simony
    « Reply #16 on: June 09, 2022, 01:09:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 09, 2022, 11:23:19 AM
    SSPX charges specific "fees" for Masses to be offered.  That is completely out of line and they cannot be excused of simony for this practice.

    https://sspx.org/en/give-a-mass-stipend

    They refer to them as "fees" and specify the exact amount.  At best, they can say that the "customary amount" is [whatever].  They even have the audacity to say "USD only", so demanding valuation based on a specific currency.  Remind anyone of the money-changers that Our Lord scourged out of the temple?

    Then it's laughable when they try to wash their hands of simony by putting in the following "clarification".

    So it's "inaccurate" to ask "How much is it for a Mass?" or "How much does a Mass cost?" when just above this they lay out their set "fees" for Masses (i.e., how much the Mass costs).  This is not merely "inaccurate," but it's grave matter to charge a set fee for a Mass, and it's a terrible scandal, and they must cease and desist ASAP.  How can they be excused of setting a cost for a Mass when they even specify "USD only"?

    So because the Mass is worth so much more than the mere $20 they charge, or they put this note in there, they're excused of simony?  Hardly.

    Toward the bottom, they also say that if you can't afford these "fees," people should talk to their local pastor to [... my expression here ...] negotiate a lower rate.  What is this, haggling with a used car dealer?

    I find this entire page repugnant.  It's probably stuff like this that gave rise to Martin Luther.
    Agreed.
    Terminology is important.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Simony
    « Reply #17 on: June 09, 2022, 02:56:24 PM »
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    • Quote
    Stipends are nothing more than free-will offerings from the faithful, a free gift, and not something that can be required up front by setting a "fee".
    I’ve always heard that the mass stipend/fee (it means the same thing) was to be an amount that would support the priest's meals for a day.  With inflation, $20 is a low amount.  This explains why the diocese set a minimum in the past.

    There are always exceptions for the poor, but generally speaking, people can afford $20.  The minimum is also a practical consideration that keep people from requesting inordinate amounts of masses and clogging up the priest with their personal intentions.  
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Simony
    « Reply #18 on: June 09, 2022, 03:19:36 PM »
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    • STIPEND = a fixed regular sum paid as a salary or allowance.

    late Middle English: from Old French stipendie or Latin stipendium, from stips‘wages’ + pendere ‘to pay’.


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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: SSPX Simony
    « Reply #19 on: June 09, 2022, 04:01:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 09, 2022, 11:53:57 AM
    Keep looking for a text from before Vatican II that calls them fees.
    .
    The term "stole fee" is a traditional, pre-Vatican 2 Catholic term. It means the fee to get a priest to put on his stole. I've heard it used mainly for Baptism, but I suppose it could also be used for Extreme Unction and certainly for Mass.

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    I'm in communication right now with a person who paid his $800 fee nearly a year ago for the Gregorian Masses from SSPX.  He was told they would be scheduled and he would be notified of when.  Nearly a year has passed, and he hasn't heard a peep out of them.  What, are they accepting Mass fees years ahead of time to finance their Seminary and St. Mary's Church?

    Well, they are supposed to fulfill Mass requests within a reasonable amount of time. I'd suggest your friend call them up and ask if they have been said. It's possible they just forgot to inform him.

    Mass stipends cannot be used to build churches. They go straight into the priests' pockets and are his personal property. Gee, Ladislaus, for all your indignation about this I'm surprised how little you seem to know about this subject in general.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: SSPX Simony
    « Reply #20 on: June 09, 2022, 08:06:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 09, 2022, 11:45:11 AM
    No, I'm calling out setting "fees" for Masses as simony.

    Every single Tradtiional priest I've ever known use the term "stipend" ... not "fee" as the SSPX does here ... and call out a "customary amount".

    They have a set "fee" published.  That gives the strong impression of trafficing in Masses, and it's absolutely forbidden.



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    Offline bodeens

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    Re: SSPX Simony
    « Reply #21 on: June 09, 2022, 09:31:02 PM »
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    • Email them and let them know. Some laymen may have done the web design and simply screwed up. I am not an SSPX shill either, but I simply think this slipped through the cracks. They should and probably will fix it if you point it out.
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: SSPX Simony
    « Reply #22 on: June 09, 2022, 09:35:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: bodeens on June 09, 2022, 09:31:02 PM
    Email them and let them know. Some laymen may have done the web design and simply screwed up. I am not an SSPX shill either, but I simply think this slipped through the cracks. They should and probably will fix it if you point it out.
    Bet they won't...
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: SSPX Simony
    « Reply #23 on: June 09, 2022, 09:38:15 PM »
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    • If a single Mass is $20, then why would 9 Masses be $200 instead of $180. 30 Masses would be $600 instead of $800.

     

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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: SSPX Simony
    « Reply #24 on: June 09, 2022, 09:50:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey on June 09, 2022, 09:38:15 PM
    If a single Mass is $20, then why would 9 Masses be $200 instead of $180. 30 Masses would be $600 instead of $800.

     
    My question to the sspx, exactly.  I was told because the masses will be 30 in a row.  Like that should make a difference?  I would think "quantity discount", right?
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    Offline MariasAnawim

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    Re: SSPX Simony
    « Reply #25 on: June 09, 2022, 09:55:42 PM »
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    • I remember when I was younger maybe in my late teens/ young 20s I was still in the movies ordo and I went to give alms for a mass but I only had $10 per offering and they literally told me that a mass was $20
    I was taken a back like how could they turn me down just because I don't have enough money. It really turned me off and I was only able to give enough for one mass.
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    Offline PAT317

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    Re: SSPX Simony
    « Reply #26 on: June 09, 2022, 09:55:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: bodeens on June 09, 2022, 09:31:02 PM
    Email them and let them know. Some laymen may have done the web design and simply screwed up. I am not an SSPX shill either, but I simply think this slipped through the cracks. They should and probably will fix it if you point it out.

    This is along the lines of what I was thinking.  I agree with Lad that it is not the best wording & makes it sound like you're "buying" a Mass, but I also thought it's possible what bodeens said above happened.  It seems like in the past I always heard "recommended stipend" or such language. 
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: SSPX Simony
    « Reply #27 on: June 09, 2022, 10:04:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: MariasAnawim on June 09, 2022, 09:55:42 PM
    I remember when I was younger maybe in my late teens/ young 20s I was still in the movies ordo and I went to give alms for a mass but I only had $10 per offering and they literally told me that a mass was $20
    I was taken a back like how could they turn me down just because I don't have enough money. It really turned me off and I was only able to give enough for one mass.
    Indeed.
    At the fraternity of st. Peter church near me, they refuse to take more than $5 for a mass stipend.
    I don't even ask the sspx anymore. 
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: SSPX Simony
    « Reply #28 on: June 09, 2022, 10:15:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: epiphany on June 09, 2022, 09:50:54 PM
    My question to the sspx, exactly.  I was told because the masses will be 30 in a row.  Like that should make a difference?  I would think "quantity discount", right?

    Not quite.  In their defense --- I always try to be fair-minded even if it undercuts my own arguments --- when you request Gregorian Masses, you are asking for a single priest to block out 30 consecutive Masses to the exclusion of any others.  IOW, he can't accept Mass stipends from anyone else to be scheduled during that time frame.  Ceteris paribus, you've bumped up any other Masses an additional month.  So it can be well argued, I think, that the additional stipend is a matter of justice to the priest.  I have no issue with that part of it, in and of itself.  He also has to make a commitment to say Mass every day for 30 days straight --- generally speaking, he can't skip a day.  (Am I correct on this?  Does it have to be 30 consecutive days, or just 30 consecutive Masses to the exclusion of any other intentions?  Not all priests say Mass every day.)

    As a practical matter, Gregorian Masses are best assigned to priests who have no ongoing daily duties to a large number of faithful, such as priests in monasteries, retired priests, and so on. 
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    Offline Sefa

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    Re: SSPX Simony
    « Reply #29 on: June 10, 2022, 01:19:02 AM »
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    • Simony being the purchasing of sacraments, named after Simon Magus tried to buy ordination from St Peter, could someone explain why mass/baptism/confirmation/marriage/stole fees/stipends aren't simony seeing as it is the purchase of sacraments?

    Priests have a grave obligation to provide these as they are necessary for salvation (although it seems few priests believe this now and see it more as a job), whilst although the faithful have a grave obligation to provide for the church, as St Thomas writes it is not mandated but freely given, thus not an exchange of goods which would appear to be simony.

    Now one might say priests need money (USD) to eat and live. Maybe, if we disregard the lilies, but the faithful can and do do that by supporting a priest through alms that doesn't have any reciprocal strings attached, so the priest can get on and offer sacrifice and all necessities to serve the people of God without worry of physical requirements.

    In the particular case of mass intentions, does a priest not offer mass anyway and could simply add a name into his intentions? Is it for the common good? Then why withhold good works because of not receiving mammon?
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