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Author Topic: SSPX Seminary Numbers  (Read 2257 times)

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Offline Twice dyed

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Re: SSPX Seminary Numbers
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2025, 09:32:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: Horatius on April 28, 2025, 04:09:54 AM
    I think you've slightly missed my point. The best and brightest of the SSPX priests have done well because, well... They are bright. ...

    But I'll leave that one alone because I think where you actually missed my point was the question of knowledge versus intelligence. I have no problem with the intelligence of SSPX priests. Priests are not meant to be geniuses. It is completely fine for them to be as intelligent as ordinary white-collar professionals. What I do find strange, however, is that the younger priests just don't seem to be that knowledgeable. One couldn't really have a normal adult conversation with them. One would have to refrain from bringing up anything too grown-up like the "Roman Question" or the "Encyclopedists." It's disappointing.

    Just wondering if this applies: are these rules only for persons wishing to live in a priory?

    SSPX STATUTES: 
    VIII - DE SODALIUM SANCTIFICATIONIS MEDIIS PECULIARIBUS
    1. Before becoming members of the Fraternity, aspirants must complete a year of spiritual study, during which they will strive to restore Our Lord to His rightful place in their souls and in their entire being.
    To this end, they will fill their minds with His light through meditative reading of the Gospel, the Fathers, and spiritual authors. The liturgy, Gregorian chant, music, and Latin will also be the subject of their studies.
    However, this year must have as its primary goal a true conversion, a restoration of order through the rejection of bad habits and the acquisition of natural and supernatural virtues through vigilance and prayer.
    The mystical and theological knowledge of the Holy Mass will increase their devotion to these Holy Mysteries, to the Virgin Mary, Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix.
    ****
    The Statutes are not too easily reformed.  Somewhere else it says 6 years Seminary training ..
    So what did +Williamson do in Winona?  '89? He invented "YEAR  0"
    Brilliant!



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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Seminary Numbers
    « Reply #31 on: April 28, 2025, 09:46:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: Horatius on April 28, 2025, 04:09:54 AM
    I think you've slightly missed my point. The best and brightest of the SSPX priests have done well because, well... They are bright. Highly intelligent people operate at a higher level by themselves, they are autodidacts usually. So we don't need to thank the SSPX for these individuals. I think, rather, to assess the quality of SSPX seminaries one should look at a more common denominator- the average priest.

    I was there, though, before Humanities Year, and the average ones that had sufficient intellectual aptitude in general to become priests made it through just fine without the Humanities Year, even if it maybe took them a few months to catch up.  Those who didn't make it undoubtedly would not have made it even with the addition of the Humanities Year.  Now, if there were some cases that needed to be attended to, they could easily have come up with a solution that didn't coset $50 million dollars ... to add a Humanities Year.  You could have sent them to St. Mary's, given entrance/aptitude exams to prospective seminarians and then referred some who weren't ready to St. Mary's, or even host a Summer program to get them up to speed, and in the most challenging cases, have them do 2 Summer sessions, which would only set them back one academic year ... just as Humanities Year would have.  Finally, for 2 million dollars TOPS, they could have added a new wing or building to the complex ... all problems solved for a fraction of the cost.

    IMO, they used the Humanities Year to artificially create the alleged "overcrowding problem" to justify something they wanted to build for ulterior motives, and then speculating about what those motives may have been, since by itself even the engineered problem could have been solved very easily without the absurd expenditure.  Problem -> Reaction -> Solution.  Create a problem by adding Humanities Year (instead of solving for it before you added it by adding a wing or building).  Elicit a Reaction ... where the lay faithful are sympathetic to pictures of two seminarians sharing one of those tiny rooms.  Solution ... propose the building project and get the lay faithful to send money.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Seminary Numbers
    « Reply #32 on: April 28, 2025, 09:54:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Twice dyed on April 28, 2025, 09:32:06 AM
    Just wondering if this applies: are these rules only for persons wishing to live in a priory?

    SSPX STATUTES:
    VIII - DE SODALIUM SANCTIFICATIONIS MEDIIS PECULIARIBUS
    1. Before becoming members of the Fraternity, aspirants must complete a year of spiritual study, during which they will strive to restore Our Lord to His rightful place in their souls and in their entire being.
    To this end, they will fill their minds with His light through meditative reading of the Gospel, the Fathers, and spiritual authors. The liturgy, Gregorian chant, music, and Latin will also be the subject of their studies.
    However, this year must have as its primary goal a true conversion, a restoration of order through the rejection of bad habits and the acquisition of natural and supernatural virtues through vigilance and prayer.
    The mystical and theological knowledge of the Holy Mass will increase their devotion to these Holy Mysteries, to the Virgin Mary, Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix.
    ****
    The Statutes are not too easily reformed.  Somewhere else it says 6 years Seminary training ..
    So what did +Williamson do in Winona?  '89? He invented "YEAR  0"
    Brilliant!

    See, that "Year of Spirituality" had always been intended as that "Year 0".  Really the toughest part was the Latin, and most were starting from scratch and no prior knowledge was assumed, or required ... beyond the general aptitude to learn it.  Not everyone has that, but then they can't become priests.  Rest of the coursework was Bishop Williamson's Act of the Magisterium class, which he's taught even to laymen at retreats, and then some basic Sacred Scripture.  Apart from that, the only other thing that was a bit challenging was "Logic", as an intro to Philosophy, but again this required very little prior knowledge.  I took Logic classes at University without any prerequisite.

    It really wasn't extremely challenging, academically ... and if it was, a Humanities Year would not have made it that much better, but could have been supplied outside a full year at seminary.  Really the greater challenge was the spiritual life, the discipline, the order, the schedule, the obedience, etc.  And that's precisely what the traditional "Year of Spirituality" was for.

    So, really, I think the intent was to create more "well-rounded" students who had some knowledge of secular subjects like history and literature, etc.  That kind of concern could easily have been addressed with a couple of Summer sessions or even assigned reading lists ... and would not have required $50 million dollars and an extra year of formation.
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    Offline Clare67

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    Re: SSPX Seminary Numbers
    « Reply #33 on: April 28, 2025, 10:35:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 28, 2025, 09:54:05 AM
    So, really, I think the intent was to create more "well-rounded" students who had some knowledge of secular subjects like history and literature, etc.  That kind of concern could easily have been addressed with a couple of Summer sessions or even assigned reading lists ... and would not have required $50 million dollars and an extra year of formation.
    I think you are correct, Lad.  Diocesan seminarians have to obtain a Bachelor's degree (any major) before even applying to seminary.   
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Seminary Numbers
    « Reply #34 on: April 28, 2025, 10:42:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Clare67 on April 28, 2025, 10:35:59 AM
    I think you are correct, Lad.  Diocesan seminarians have to obtain a Bachelor's degree (any major) before even applying to seminary. 

    Hmmm.  I think the one around here issues you a Bachelor's Degree if you make it through the first part of seminary at least, so you didn't have to have one going in.

    As for the excuse of "well-rounded", in terms of secular education, most Universities, it's a complete scam ... as my High School curriculum did more along those lines that University did ... but they have to keep all those Leftist sociology, psychology and other Humanities' professors employed by forcing students to take 2/3 to 4/5 of their coursework in "core curriculum".

    In any case, the need, whatever it was, could have been addressed for well under the $50 million price tag.  Worst case, you add a new building onto the property for an exorbitant $5 million, then have the Brothers' Novitate at Ridgefield, and then purchase an alternate Retreat facility for $1 million dollars.  When I was at STAS, however, several Brothers did their novitiate there, among the seminarians, and it doubled also to occasionally get the Brothers some course work if they so desired ... and, God knows, perhaps some of them over many years could even have been qualified for ordination.  In a very real sense, their formation was little different from that of seminarians, in terms of spiritual formation ... the only adjustment needed was for them to focus more on manual labor (of which there was plenty there) and less on studies.  But I digress.  There's no way anything more than $10 million would have been required.  For the remaining $40 million, you could have built 20 2-million-dollar chapels around the country.
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    Online ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: SSPX Seminary Numbers
    « Reply #35 on: April 28, 2025, 12:04:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 28, 2025, 09:46:09 AM
    Solution ... propose the building project and get the lay faithful to send money.
    CORRECTED:  Solution ... propose the building project and FORCE THE CHAPEL PRIESTS TO SEND THE LAY FAITHFULS' MONEY.


    ;)
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Seminary Numbers
    « Reply #36 on: April 28, 2025, 12:06:40 PM »
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    • If you don't believe me about Chicago ... have a look at this.  Just one after another practically within walking distance of Loyola Chicago (where I went to school), where any ONE of them could simply not be recreated today at any price, and they put the $25-million-dollar St. Mary's church to shame.  There are a small number of "new" churches there, which cannot be salvaged but will have to be razed to the ground and turned into parking lots, and a few that would have to have some reversible wreck-o-vations undone, but I was just astonished as I walked around.  Every few blocks an absolute masterpiece that our modern society simply could not reproduce.

    https://maps.app.goo.gl/n66PcmH6SQNdCVi7A

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Seminary Numbers
    « Reply #37 on: April 28, 2025, 12:07:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on April 28, 2025, 12:04:57 PM
    CORRECTED:  Solution ... propose the building project and FORCE THE CHAPEL PRIESTS TO SEND THE LAY FAITHFULS' MONEY.


    ;)

    Indeed, though there are some they persuade to donate directly too. :laugh1:
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    Offline Horatius

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    Re: SSPX Seminary Numbers
    « Reply #38 on: April 28, 2025, 03:14:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 28, 2025, 09:46:09 AM
    I was there, though, before Humanities Year, and the average ones that had sufficient intellectual aptitude in general to become priests made it through just fine without the Humanities Year, even if it maybe took them a few months to catch up.  Those who didn't make it undoubtedly would not have made it even with the addition of the Humanities Year.  Now, if there were some cases that needed to be attended to, they could easily have come up with a solution that didn't coset $50 million dollars ... to add a Humanities Year.  You could have sent them to St. Mary's, given entrance/aptitude exams to prospective seminarians and then referred some who weren't ready to St. Mary's, or even host a Summer program to get them up to speed, and in the most challenging cases, have them do 2 Summer sessions, which would only set them back one academic year ... just as Humanities Year would have.  Finally, for 2 million dollars TOPS, they could have added a new wing or building to the complex ... all problems solved for a fraction of the cost.

    IMO, they used the Humanities Year to artificially create the alleged "overcrowding problem" to justify something they wanted to build for ulterior motives, and then speculating about what those motives may have been, since by itself even the engineered problem could have been solved very easily without the absurd expenditure.  Problem -> Reaction -> Solution.  Create a problem by adding Humanities Year (instead of solving for it before you added it by adding a wing or building).  Elicit a Reaction ... where the lay faithful are sympathetic to pictures of two seminarians sharing one of those tiny rooms.  Solution ... propose the building project and get the lay faithful to send money.
    I agree with the whole money thing. Clearly the SSPX handles the money the way any massive, invincible corporation does. They waste and waste without a care in the world. Honestly the recent expenditures of the SSPX remind me of the woke direction taken by several large companies. Bud Light, the NBA, and Jaguar all lost billions supporting the tranny agenda. Whatever. It doesn't matter. Just business as usual. Lol. It boggles the mind. And so I see it similarly with the SSPX which spent 50 million on a seminary with only about 30 more rooms than the previous one. And they forgot to build a church or even chapel for goodness' sake! It's shameful that with all of that money spent, the seminary holds its liturgy in a conference room. What a disgrace.

    Anyway, I'm still going to die on the hill of SSPX priests requiring a better formation. And while I usually enjoy and agree with most of what you write, no, the answer is not to send seminarians to the college at St. Mary's. The supposed catholics there smoke weed and regularly have children out of wedlock. That's the best way to annihilate vocations.
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    Offline andy

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    Re: SSPX Seminary Numbers
    « Reply #39 on: April 28, 2025, 08:59:55 PM »
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    • There are almost 100 seminarians today, if you count carefully  
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    Offline St Giles

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    Re: SSPX Seminary Numbers
    « Reply #40 on: April 28, 2025, 09:06:00 PM »
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    • I don't think they even have 120 rooms, so the new building is a undersized to begin with. There should be 120 seminarian rooms, enough resident priest rooms, guest priest rooms, and rooms for other visitors.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX Seminary Numbers
    « Reply #41 on: Yesterday at 12:51:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 28, 2025, 09:46:09 AM
    IMO, they used the Humanities Year to artificially create the alleged "overcrowding problem" to justify something they wanted to build for ulterior motives, and then speculating about what those motives may have been, since by itself even the engineered problem could have been solved very easily without the absurd expenditure.  Problem -> Reaction -> Solution.  Create a problem by adding Humanities Year (instead of solving for it before you added it by adding a wing or building).  Elicit a Reaction ... where the lay faithful are sympathetic to pictures of two seminarians sharing one of those tiny rooms.  Solution ... propose the building project and get the lay faithful to send money.

    You're off base here, and I disagree with you. I hesitate to say, "Earth to Ladislaus, come back down please." but I'm tempted to. The main thing holding me back is my lack of belief in "outer space". ;) But pop culture, old habits, and common speech still rattle around in my brain...

    Bishop Williamson is not enclosed in (((parentheses))), and he wasn't part of any "problem-reaction-solution" cօռspιʀαcιҽs. He was one of the good guys, remember? His last name was WilliamSON not WilliamSTEIN.

    This really should go without saying. I can't believe what I'm reading, or that I have to write this response. I mean, "hello, McFly?" You do remember +W got kicked out of the SSPX and died in exile, right?

    Bishop Williamson, and no one else, started the Humanities year. He had NOTHING to do with the eventual neo-SSPX embracing of branding agencies, compromise, change, and contradictions. Including the purchase of the Disneyland seminary near the corridors of power (close to Washington DC).

    The institution of the Humanities year, and the neo-SSPX aberrations, have NOTHING to do with each other. There is ZERO cause-effect relationship between them.

    Some people make associations that shouldn't be made -- those people are called schizo, if I'm not mistaken. At least if this meme is to be believed. (I'm not calling Ladislaus a schizo or trying to pick a fight with him; hopefully he can take some disagreement here and there)

    How about instead of schizo, we say it's a "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Seminary Numbers
    « Reply #42 on: Yesterday at 06:38:16 AM »
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    • So you're saying that +Williamson established Humanities Year unilaterally, Matthew, and not under SSPX direction?  Unless you have other information, I'm not buying it, since at the time Bishop Williamson was still under obedience to SSPX superiors and wouldn't have done something like that unilaterally.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Seminary Numbers
    « Reply #43 on: Yesterday at 06:43:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: andy on April 28, 2025, 08:59:55 PM
    There are almost 100 seminarians today, if you count carefully

    OK, so?  Take out the Humanities Year ... and the numbers entering are in the low 20s, and the numbers being ordained every year 4-5 on average ... are almost identical to the what was going on in the late 1980s and early 1990s and for which Winona was more than adequate.

    Even if the "almost 100" (boosted artificially by Humanities Year), but otherwise not that much more than we had  that's absolutely nothing 2 million dollars at Winona could not have easily remedied, leaving you 48 million to do something much more important with.

    There were clearly other agendas at work there.
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    Offline Mat183

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    Re: SSPX Seminary Numbers
    « Reply #44 on: Yesterday at 10:37:46 AM »
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    • For some reason the full body size and beautifully framed (by Br. Marcellus) authentic photographic copies of the Shroud of Turin were left behind when the seminary moved to Virginia.  They were in the basement hallway and classroom the last time I visited about 2018.
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