I wonder if they will reject the faith in front of the SSPX seminarians and priests as the visitors did the first time the SSPX seminary was visited in the 70's.

Quote from: Matto

I wonder if they will reject the faith in front of the SSPX seminarians and priests as the visitors did the first time the SSPX seminary was visited in the 70's.

Matto - Do you know exactly what was said by those priests in the 1974 visitation? I've only ever heard it described in general terms (described as "shocking" and "liberal," etc.).

I have no doubt it was shocking and liberal, but your post makes it seem as though it was much stronger than even that, so I thought I'd ask.

Quote from: obscurus

Quote from: BTNYC

Quote from: Matto

I wonder if they will reject the faith in front of the SSPX seminarians and priests as the visitors did the first time the SSPX seminary was visited in the 70's.

Matto - Do you know exactly what was said by those priests in the 1974 visitation? I've only ever heard it described in general terms (described as "shocking" and "liberal," etc.).

I have no doubt it was shocking and liberal, but your post makes it seem as though it was much stronger than even that, so I thought I'd ask.

From Bp. Tissier's biography on the Archbishop, p. 478-9:

"For three days the two Belgians [Msgr. Albert Descamps and Msgr. Guillaume Onclin] would question the priests and seminarians, and make theologically questionable remarks to them. They thought the ordination of married men was normal and inevitable, they did not admit that truth is immutable, and they expressed doubts concerning the physical reality of Christ's Resurrection."

See also Apologia Pro Marcel Lefebvre, Vol. I:

Quote

The Apostolic Visitation of the Seminary at Ecône took place from 11-13 November 1974. The two Visitors were both Belgians: Mgr. Descamps, a biblical scholar, and Mgr. Onclin, a canonist. The Apostolic Visitation was carried out with great thoroughness. Professors and students were subjected to searching and detailed questions concerning every aspect of life in the Seminary. However, considerable scandal was occasioned by opinions which the two Roman Visitors expressed in the presence of the students and staff. For, according to Mgr. Lefebvre, these two Visitors considered it normal and indeed inevitable that there should be a married clergy; they did not believe there was an immutable Truth; and they also had doubts concerning the traditional concept of our Lord 's Resurrection.

Quote from: obscurus

Quote from: Matto

I wonder if they will reject the faith in front of the SSPX seminarians and priests as the visitors did the first time the SSPX seminary was visited in the 70's.

From Bp. Tissier's biography on the Archbishop, p. 478-9:

"For three days the two Belgians [Msgr. Albert Descamps and Msgr. Guillaume Onclin] would question the priests and seminarians, and make theologically questionable remarks to them. They thought the ordination of married men was normal and inevitable, they did not admit that truth is immutable, and they expressed doubts concerning the physical reality of Christ's Resurrection."

See also Apologia Pro Marcel Lefebvre, Vol. I:

Quote

The Apostolic Visitation of the Seminary at Ecône took place from 11-13 November 1974. The two Visitors were both Belgians: Mgr. Descamps, a biblical scholar, and Mgr. Onclin, a canonist. The Apostolic Visitation was carried out with great thoroughness. Professors and students were subjected to searching and detailed questions concerning every aspect of life in the Seminary. However, considerable scandal was occasioned by opinions which the two Roman Visitors expressed in the presence of the students and staff. For, according to Mgr. Lefebvre, these two Visitors considered it normal and indeed inevitable that there should be a married clergy; they did not believe there was an immutable Truth; and they also had doubts concerning the traditional concept of our Lord 's Resurrection.

On 21 November 1974, in reaction to the scandal occasioned by these opinions of the Apostolic Visitors, Mgr. Lefebvre considered it necessary to make clear where he stood in relation to the Rome represented by this attitude of mind.

In this Declaration he rejected the views expressed by the Visitors, even if they were currently acceptable in the Rome which the Visitors represented in an official capacity.

The Declaration of 21 November 1974

We hold firmly with all our heart and with all our mind to Catholic Rome, Guardian of the Catholic Faith and of the traditions necessary to the maintenance of this faith, to the eternal Rome, mistress of wisdom and truth.

We refuse on the other hand, and have always refused, to follow the Rome of Neo-Modernist and Neo-Protestant tendencies which became clearly manifest during the Second Vatican Council, and after the Council, in all the reforms which issued from it.

In effect, all these reforms have contributed and continue to contribute to the destruction of the Church, to the ruin of the priesthood, to the abolition of the Sacrifice of the Mass and the Sacraments, to the disappearance of the religious life, and to a naturalistic and Teilhardian education in the universities, in the seminaries, in catechetics: an education deriving from Liberalism and Protestantism which had been condemned many times by the solemn Magisterium of the Church.

No authority, not even the highest in the hierarchy, can compel us to abandon or to diminish our Catholic Faith, so clearly expressed and professed by the Church's Magisterium for nineteen centuries.

"Friends," said St. Paul, "though it were we ourselves, though it were an angel from heaven that should preach to you a gospel other than the gospel we have preached to you, a curse upon him" (Gal. 1:8).

Is it not this that the Holy Father is repeating to us today? And if there is a certain contradiction manifest in his words and deeds as well as in the acts of the dicasteries,2 then we cleave to what has always been taught and we turn a deaf ear to the novelties which destroy the Church.

It is impossible to profoundly modify the Lex Orandi without modifying the Lex Credendi. To the New Mass there corresponds the new catechism, the new priesthood, the new seminaries, the new universities, the "Charismatic" Church, Pentecostalism: all of them opposed to orthodoxy and the never-changing Magisterium.

This reformation, deriving as it does from Liberalism and Modernism, is entirely corrupted; it derives from heresy and results in heresy, even if all its acts are not formally heretical.

It is therefore impossible for any conscientious and faithful Catholic to espouse this reformation and to submit to it in any way whatsoever.

The only attitude of fidelity to the Church and to Catholic doctrine appropriate for our salvation is a categorical refusal to accept this reformation.

That is why, without any rebellion, bitterness, or resentment, we pursue our work of priestly formation under the guidance of the never-changing Magisterium, convinced as we are that we cannot possibly render a greater service to the Holy Catholic Church, to the Sovereign Pontiff, and to posterity.

That is why we hold firmly to everything that has been consistently taught and practiced by the Church (and codified in books published before the Modernist influence of the Council) concerning faith, morals, divine worship, catechetics, priestly formation, and the institution of the Church, until such time as the true light of tradition dissipates the gloom which obscures the sky of the eternal Rome.

Doing this, with the grace of God, the help of the Virgin Mary, St. Joseph, and St. Pius X, we are certain that we are being faithful to the Catholic and Roman Church, to all of Peter's successors, and of being the Fideles Dispensatores Mysteriorum Domini Nostri Jesu Christi In Spiritu Sancto.

†Marcel Lefebvre

I wonder if they will reject the faith in front of the SSPX seminarians and priests as the visitors did the first time the SSPX seminary was visited in the 70's.

I still attend Mass at an SSPX chapel and a couple of weeks ago, there were pamphlets located in the pews.  The pamphlets listed some rubric (laity - stand, sit, kneel) changes and the Priest gave his sermon on the changes stating that we needed to align ourselves more fully with the 1962 liturgy, which included more participation from the laity.

Question - Is this happening Society wide?