Author Topic: SSPX say it is okay to take COVID vaccine  (Read 4467 times)

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Offline Carissima

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Re: SSPX say it is okay to take COVID vaccine
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2020, 03:03:48 PM »
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  • This discussion isnt as black and white as you and Carissima would like to believe.
    It is when the government is about pump my children full of poison, and now with the full backing of the SSPX and the Conciliar Church, VII Catholics and Trad Catholics no longer have a religious exemption to back them up in refusing. 

    Offline PAT317

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    Re: SSPX say it is okay to take COVID vaccine
    « Reply #46 on: November 21, 2020, 03:06:48 PM »
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  • Ah...so you were mocking me. This discussion isnt as black and white as you and Carissima would like to believe.
    I'm sorry; I did not mean to be mocking you.  It's just that I don't see how there could be any clear pre-VII teaching on this, when they only came into being after VII.  I agree that one has to take the principles the Church has always taught & apply them.  But I do think it is very clear we should not take vaccines which used aborted (live, BTW) babies' fetal cells, let alone when one adds to it the agenda Mr G & others have mentioned.  In any case, I apologize if you thought I was mocking you, which was not my intention.  


    Offline B from A

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    Re: SSPX say it is okay to take COVID vaccine
    « Reply #47 on: November 21, 2020, 03:09:03 PM »
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  • It is when the government is about pump my children full of poison, and now with the full backing of the SSPX and the Conciliar Church, VII Catholics and Trad Catholics no longer have a religious exemption to back them up in refusing.
    Maybe we could use the statements by the bishops who signed that statement last Spring as our religious exemption? 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX say it is okay to take COVID vaccine
    « Reply #48 on: November 21, 2020, 03:13:12 PM »
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  • The article in question was written by Fr. Peter Scott (i.e., one of the better/best SSPX moralists, and, interestingly, a medical doctor) in 2000, and is found on pp. 269-70 of the book cited above.

    It was written by him in 2000 (i.e., 5 years before the PAFL document upon which the SSPX now bases its position).

    The article directly contradicts the current position of the SSPX, and I will type the pertinent sections here verbatim (which begins with Fr. Scott's rejection of the justification/argument from double effect):

    "Here one could argue that the person who seeks the vaccination does not will the abortion but simply uses the cells that are obtained as a consequence.  However, the vaccine is not just an indirect effect of the abortion.  There is, in fact, a direct line of causality from the abortion to the available fetal cells, to the development of the vaccine, to the immunization.  Therefore, the immunization is a direct consequence of the abortion, and not just an indirect effect.  Consequently, it would be immoral to use a vaccine that one knew was developed in fetal cells no matter how great the advantage to be procured.  

    Moreover, even if it were to be admitted that the vaccination is not a direct consequence of the abortion, for the abortion is not performed directly in order obtain fetal cells, and those who use them might claim, as for themselves, that they do not directly will the abortion in itself, the Catholic sense tells the faithful that they can never use the byproducts of abortions for any reason at all, for by so doing they promote the mass murder of the innocent which is destroying modern society and all sense of morality.  There must always be a proportionate reason to use the indirect voluntary. that is, to permit something evil which is not directly willed.  Here the reasonable gain obtained by the use of the double effect z9if it truly were indirectly willed only, which it is not) would not in any way be proportionate to the horrible evil of abortion, and the scandal would be immense.  

    If parents are not aware of the fact that fetal cells are being used in the culture of the vaccines that they are giving to their children, then clearly there is no moral fault involved.  However, if they are aware of this, then they are morally obliged to refuse such vaccinations on principle, until such time as they can be obtained from cultures which are morally licit.  Furthermore, if civil law should make such vaccination obligatory (e.g., for attendance at school)then the parents would be obliged to object in conscience to such immoral means of vaccinating their children."

    The contradiction between the former and current positions of the SSPX could not be more perfect.

    Compare the 2000 article by Fr. Scott above, to the article on sspx.org under the same title ("Is it licit to allow one's children to be vaccinated...")...but reaching the opposite conclusion, here:

    http://archives.sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/catholic_faqs__morality.htm

    It was obviously edited subsequent to the 2005 PAFL document to reach the opposite conclusion which the Society promotes today.

    Note also that Fr. Scott says obligatory vaccination for attendance at schools must be rejected, whereas all SSPX schools today say the opposite.  

    Total capitulation.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline CathSarto

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    Re: SSPX say it is okay to take COVID vaccine
    « Reply #49 on: November 21, 2020, 03:14:52 PM »
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  • A truly devastating article. Many will get this vaccine because they trust the judgement of the SSPX. This exposes, with one strike, the absolute and complete submission to the NWO by the hierarchy of the SSPX, which leads one to suspect that there are indeed Freemasons amongst them.  That, coupled with the daily blasphemies of offering the Holy Sacrifice in union with an evil anti-pope, has culminated in the lack of grace necessary to retain the sensus catholicus.  Those good priests who know better will be forced into submission of this party line, just like everything else, or risk being labelled disobedient.

    As troubling as it is, this is not surprising. The SSPX made it their mission in the beginning of this plandemic, to shut down anyone who pointed out the true nature of this crisis - population control and submission to the NWO - and mockingly labelled them conspiracy theorists.  So sad that it's come to this and we are abandoned to the wolves by those who proclaim to defend the true faith.  But, as has been said before, when you defend Bergoglio, you become Bergoglio. 


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: SSPX say it is okay to take COVID vaccine
    « Reply #50 on: November 21, 2020, 05:31:59 PM »
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  • It is when the government is about pump my children full of poison, and now with the full backing of the SSPX and the Conciliar Church, VII Catholics and Trad Catholics no longer have a religious exemption to back them up in refusing.

    Over the past 15 years we received many red flag warnings that the SSPX had betrayed their role to assist the traditional Catholic remnant.

    Around 2011, they officially turned against homeschooling and made a half-hearted attempt to reform their struggling school system.

    But homeschool families were always the bedrock of the SSPX faithful.

    The SSPX school system failed on many counts, including the general quality of their programs, poor oversight and more recently, sex scandals.

    Not only has the SSPX school program conditioned their SSPX faithful to dumbed down “group think”, it now exposes them to judeo-masonic government mandates.

    I hope SSPX schools are “defunded” by the faithful and that traditional Catholic homeschooling rebounds. 
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: SSPX say it is okay to take COVID vaccine
    « Reply #51 on: November 21, 2020, 05:43:54 PM »
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  • Nevertheless --

    While God might forgive them, nature WILL NOT. They will suffer countless side-effects in this world, including having no grandchildren, and they'll only be able to blame themselves for failing to inform themselves about what's going on in the world. It's not that difficult. Just turn off the f***ing TV and read some REAL NEWS from countless good alternative news sources. It's not like you have to do hours of research -- the news is handed to you on a silver platter just like the MSM. You just have to go to different websites, that's all.

    Oh, but they didn't want to seem "weird" or "conspiracy nut" by listening to conservative news sources like LifeSiteNews when all their friends watch and trust the Mainstream Media. So you see, it was their fault after all. Their ignorance wasn't invincible -- they wanted to be accepted by The World and have a comfortable, pleasant life without any struggle or suffering.

    In fact, that's why they will have taken the vaccine -- to avoid the suffering caused by the boogeyman virus.

    Well, in a just punishment, they will get way more than the suffering from an average flu (which is what COVID is) and it will be THEIR OWN FAULT.

    Some men might forgive them. God WILL forgive them if they repent. But NATURE DOESN'T FORGIVE. It is ruthless and cold-blooded as it makes you pay 100% of the consequences of your actions.

    God isn't going to suspend the laws of nature because you were weak and/or stupid and took the COVID vaccine. Aluminum and mercury in the bloodstream is going to do what aluminum and mercury in the bloodstream normally does, per the laws of nature. The same goes for cancer cells in the vaccine. A sterilizing agent is going to do to your gonads what the laws of nature dictate that it do. God isn't going to step in to save you by a miracle. God created and upholds the laws of nature.

    If you're ignorant about the Jews and think debt is normal, God isn't going to make extra money appear in your bank account to help you with that suffering. No, that's on you. You should have learned about the banking system, and how the Jews force women out to work and keep family sizes small. A lot of extra suffering is simply the consequences of our own ignorance, and ultimately our own fault for prioritizing going out with friends, fun, TV, video games, etc. instead of hitting the books (or hitting the Internet) to learn this stuff.
    All so true. All the more  we who know must inform those who do not know.

    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: SSPX say it is okay to take COVID vaccine
    « Reply #52 on: November 21, 2020, 08:30:15 PM »
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  • Compare the 2000 article by Fr. Scott above, to the article on sspx.org under the same title ("Is it licit to allow one's children to be vaccinated...")...but reaching the opposite conclusion, here:

    http://archives.sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/catholic_faqs__morality.htm

    It was obviously edited subsequent to the 2005 PAFL document to reach the opposite conclusion which the Society promotes today.

    Note also that Fr. Scott says obligatory vaccination for attendance at schools must be rejected, whereas all SSPX schools today say the opposite.  

    Total capitulation.
    Fr Scott himself endorsed the 2005 study as shown in the 2006 Angelus (page 13 of the PDF)
    https://sspx.org/sites/sspx/files/media/vaccines.pdf?fbclid=IwAR32oLKRH2bHS931pKPaBuOTLvMry9C2pnNCRki6GJFMOn8BdTJ_zBcNEDI


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX say it is okay to take COVID vaccine
    « Reply #53 on: November 21, 2020, 10:05:27 PM »
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  • Fr Scott himself endorsed the 2005 study as shown in the 2006 Angelus (page 13 of the PDF)
    https://sspx.org/sites/sspx/files/media/vaccines.pdf?fbclid=IwAR32oLKRH2bHS931pKPaBuOTLvMry9C2pnNCRki6GJFMOn8BdTJ_zBcNEDI
    ...which highlights the contradiction all the more.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline andy

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    Re: SSPX say it is okay to take COVID vaccine
    « Reply #54 on: November 21, 2020, 11:33:44 PM »
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  • It is like selling a service in exchange of money we know that had been stolen.

    Offline andy

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    Re: SSPX say it is okay to take COVID vaccine
    « Reply #55 on: November 21, 2020, 11:48:49 PM »
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  • The true moral question is about the risk - a very vague term. To make it more specific, let's say:
     - there is a new disease with mortality rate 20%
     - there is indeed a protection available, made of existing cell lines developed on dead aborted babies

    There are 2 questions:
    Shall it be used?
    Shall it be mandatory?

    Both SSPX and neo catholics say: yes. Is it really a moral solution here? 


    Offline alaric

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    Re: SSPX say it is okay to take COVID vaccine
    « Reply #56 on: November 22, 2020, 05:37:19 AM »
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  • The true moral question is about the risk - a very vague term. To make it more specific, let's say:
     - there is a new disease with mortality rate 20%
     - there is indeed a protection available, made of existing cell lines developed on dead aborted babies

    There are 2 questions:
    Shall it be used?
    Shall it be mandatory?

    Both SSPX and neo catholics say: yes. Is it really a moral solution here?
    As the protestants say...........What would Jesus do?

    Therein you have your answer.

    Offline alaric

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    Re: SSPX say it is okay to take COVID vaccine
    « Reply #57 on: November 22, 2020, 05:52:47 AM »
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  • Quote
    A truly devastating article. Many will get this vaccine because they trust the judgement of the SSPX.

    So they will have a RNA, genome/sequencing -changing vaccine injected into their body that they knowingly came from the murder of other human beings ( sometimes derived while they were alive or "harvested") because some fruitcakes at the SSPX said it "Ok"? 

    Are people really this stupid, especially those in the SSPX who are usually acutely aware on such moral issues?

    I just don't get it.


    I know plenty of non-SSPX, even many non-Catholics, even non-religious who say they will refuse the vaccine no matter what. (We'll see however when that day comes.). Many because they know covid is a joke and that vaccine is poison.


    I find it very hard to believe the SSPX is this ignorant on the issue.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: SSPX say it is okay to take COVID vaccine
    « Reply #58 on: November 22, 2020, 06:06:12 AM »
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  • The article in question was written by Fr. Peter Scott (i.e., one of the better/best SSPX moralists, and, interestingly, a medical doctor) in 2000, and is found on pp. 269-70 of the book cited above.

    It was written by him in 2000 (i.e., 5 years before the PAFL document upon which the SSPX now bases its position).

    The article directly contradicts the current position of the SSPX, and I will type the pertinent sections here verbatim (which begins with Fr. Scott's rejection of the justification/argument from double effect):

    "Here one could argue that the person who seeks the vaccination does not will the abortion but simply uses the cells that are obtained as a consequence.  However, the vaccine is not just an indirect effect of the abortion.  There is, in fact, a direct line of causality from the abortion to the available fetal cells, to the development of the vaccine, to the immunization.  Therefore, the immunization is a direct consequence of the abortion, and not just an indirect effect.  Consequently, it would be immoral to use a vaccine that one knew was developed in fetal cells no matter how great the advantage to be procured.  

    Moreover, even if it were to be admitted that the vaccination is not a direct consequence of the abortion, for the abortion is not performed directly in order obtain fetal cells, and those who use them might claim, as for themselves, that they do not directly will the abortion in itself, the Catholic sense tells the faithful that they can never use the byproducts of abortions for any reason at all, for by so doing they promote the mass murder of the innocent which is destroying modern society and all sense of morality.  There must always be a proportionate reason to use the indirect voluntary. that is, to permit something evil which is not directly willed.  Here the reasonable gain obtained by the use of the double effect z9if it truly were indirectly willed only, which it is not) would not in any way be proportionate to the horrible evil of abortion, and the scandal would be immense.  

    If parents are not aware of the fact that fetal cells are being used in the culture of the vaccines that they are giving to their children, then clearly there is no moral fault involved.  However, if they are aware of this, then they are morally obliged to refuse such vaccinations on principle, until such time as they can be obtained from cultures which are morally licit.  Furthermore, if civil law should make such vaccination obligatory (e.g., for attendance at school)then the parents would be obliged to object in conscience to such immoral means of vaccinating their children."

    The contradiction between the former and current positions of the SSPX could not be more perfect.
    But, again, regardless of the contradiction, as you say up-thread neither is "definitive Church teaching" on the matter.  
      
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: SSPX say it is okay to take COVID vaccine
    « Reply #59 on: November 22, 2020, 06:30:48 AM »
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  • It is when the government is about pump my children full of poison, and now with the full backing of the SSPX and the Conciliar Church, VII Catholics and Trad Catholics no longer have a religious exemption to back them up in refusing.
    I understand your feelings.  If you refuse them for your children and they do not accept it, what happens to them?  Will they be mandatory to attend all schools? Even homeschooling?
       
    I suspect that this issue also potentially affects many Catholics' ability to keep their jobs if it mandatory for them.  What happens when the father of the family is required to take the vaccine in order to keep his job?  Now what?  He leaves his profession, the source of income to provide for his family, and finds a different profession or job with a much lower income?  What happens if all jobs make it mandatory?
     
    These are some of the things I think about when I look to the Church for guidance and when I say it's not black and white.  I don't think we have ever been in a situation such as this where Catholics may have to choose between providing for their families and taking such a vaccine (assuming there are no other non-fetal options). Would the Church say that one must refuse the vaccine even if it means they will have no means to provide for their family?    
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17


     

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