Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: SSPX rumor  (Read 2145 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Minnesota

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1804
  • Reputation: +943/-462
  • Gender: Male
SSPX rumor
« on: July 18, 2021, 01:51:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I've heard a rumor through some channels that Fr. Pagliarani, the Superior General, might be consecrated a bishop soon. How true do you think it is?
    Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed


    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 31179
    • Reputation: +27095/-494
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX rumor
    « Reply #1 on: July 18, 2021, 02:47:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I've heard a rumor through some channels that Fr. Pagliarani, the Superior General, might be consecrated a bishop soon. How true do you think it is?

    By who?

    Without a papal mandate? Like +ABL did in 1988, or Bp. Wiliamson did in the mid 2010s?

    Certainly not Bp. Fellay and the other two bishops. They came out condemning the 3 consecrations done by +Williamson in the mid-2010s.
    He'd have to be going for "full hypocrite".
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41862
    • Reputation: +23919/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX rumor
    « Reply #2 on: July 18, 2021, 02:49:38 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Depends on your source.  Could just be speculation after Bergoglio's Motu.  Could be a reaction to the Motu by the SSPX along the lines of "Well, there goes the regularization.  I guess we don't have to worry about irking Rome by doing this."

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41862
    • Reputation: +23919/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX rumor
    « Reply #3 on: July 18, 2021, 02:51:13 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • By who?

    Without a papal mandate? Like +ABL did in 1988, or Bp. Wiliamson did in the mid 2010s?

    Certainly not Bp. Fellay and the other two bishops. They came out condemning the 3 consecrations done by +Williamson in the mid-2010s.
    He'd have to be going for "full hypocrite".

    Going "full hypocrite" wouldn't stop them.

    Offline Cryptinox

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1149
    • Reputation: +248/-91
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX rumor
    « Reply #4 on: July 18, 2021, 02:51:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Strongly doubt it. Bp. Fellay is just a little younger than the age Lefebvre was when he founded the SSPX.


    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 31179
    • Reputation: +27095/-494
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX rumor
    « Reply #5 on: July 18, 2021, 02:56:56 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Are the SSPX parishioners that far gone, that fully transformed into sheep that they don't think *at all* anymore?

    Do they wear masks for the rest of their lives, even in their car, as well? Despite all the reasons not to? Might as well not think at all anymore.

    I was just thinking about all those memes which succinctly capture the truth, contradictions, etc. on various issues -- but do those memes actually ever convert anyone or wake them up? Most of the time the answer is No, because they literally don't care about the truth. They just want to experience carnal pleasure, and live their easy lives of convenience. That's it.

    How does someone thumb up his nose at such clear, evident truths? They must have done something to merit that punishment from God.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com

    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1889
    • Reputation: +500/-141
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX rumor
    « Reply #6 on: July 18, 2021, 03:41:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Going "full hypocrite" wouldn't stop them.
    I still don't think its inherently hypocritical TBH.  Its obvious that there are some circuмstances where consecrations without papal mandate are justified and others where it wasn't.  Theoretically one could have thought that when Williamson did his consecrations the situation in the Church wasn't as bad as it is now.  Maybe that's a naive position but I don't see how its inherently contradictory.

    Furthermore, one could in good faith (again, even if naive) have possibly thought back in 2017 that it was possible for the SSPX to gain formal recognition by Rome *without* acknowledging the NO/V2 (perhaps they envisoned some sort of "agree to disagree" type thing) but one could see this latest act by Francis as ruling out that possibility.

    I don't wanna go off hearsay but I saw someone on FB at one point say they asked Bishop Fellay if they'd do another set of consecrations and supposedly he said the SSPX would do it if the alternative was being left with no bishops, or something like that.

    To be clear I respect Bishop Williamson a lot and think he's an asset to the Church.   I just think its possible to disagree with his decision without being an indulter.

    (And I say that as someone who's increasingly coming around to the idea that he may just have been thinking further ahead/seen the writing on the wall myself)

    Offline Incredulous

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8901
    • Reputation: +8675/-849
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX rumor
    « Reply #7 on: July 18, 2021, 03:53:08 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • By who?

    Without a papal mandate? Like +ABL did in 1988, or Bp. Wiliamson did in the mid 2010s?

    Certainly not Bp. Fellay and the other two bishops. They came out condemning the 3 consecrations done by +Williamson in the mid-2010s.
    He'd have to be going for "full hypocrite".


    It's a weird, untimely rumor... but that's what makes it a curiosity.   

    I wouldn't rule it out in that SSPX/newChurch relations area at a pivotal juncture.

    A bishopric for a "controlled" priest could be part of the window dressing for prelature, or similar sinister accord.


     European invasive species Vulpes vulpes (a.k.a. red fox)
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1424
    • Reputation: +1360/-142
    • Gender: Female
    Re: SSPX rumor
    « Reply #8 on: July 18, 2021, 04:09:55 PM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!1
  • I've heard a rumor through some channels that Fr. Pagliarani, the Superior General, might be consecrated a bishop soon. How true do you think it is?

    IF true, it would mean that Francis has chosen him to be the (trusted) bishop from the SSPX ranks to lead the Prelature. Remember that the new leadership had to be ratified by Francis. This MAY be the time to corral all the indult communities into the SSPX's Prelature. UNA VOCE MALTA had announced  around three years ago that the hybrid missal was coming (worse than previously expected to be) and that only the SSPX would keep the 1962 Missal and only for a couple of years but eventually adopt the new missal. Could this be the time?
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 31179
    • Reputation: +27095/-494
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX rumor
    « Reply #9 on: July 18, 2021, 04:22:04 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I still don't think its inherently hypocritical TBH.  Its obvious that there are some circuмstances where consecrations without papal mandate are justified and others where it wasn't.  Theoretically one could have thought that when Williamson did his consecrations the situation in the Church wasn't as bad as it is now.  Maybe that's a naive position but I don't see how its inherently contradictory.


    I disagree with your disagreement. You're in the minority here.

    Allow me to put this "opinion" you're defending -- the one you're saying isn't blatant hypocrisy -- into words:

    "The 1988 consecrations were great. The 2021 consecration of Fr. Pagliarani was great. But those consecrations done by +Williamson a few years earlier, under similar circuмstances and for the same reason? TOTALLY NOT LEGIT. The Church was practically flourishing at that time, under the beneficent tutelage of good Pope Francis. Consecrations without papal mandate during that time were TOTALLY unnecessary, totally schismatic, except for the one done just a few years later under the same Pope. That one was great."

    Yeah, I'm going to have to call out anyone holding the above-described opinion as being stupid in the extreme. Nothing personal.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1424
    • Reputation: +1360/-142
    • Gender: Female
    Re: SSPX rumor
    « Reply #10 on: July 18, 2021, 04:24:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • IF true, it would mean that Francis has chosen him to be the (trusted) bishop from the SSPX ranks to lead the Prelature. Remember that the new leadership had to be ratified by Francis. This MAY be the time to corral all the indult communities into the SSPX's Prelature. UNA VOCE MALTA had announced  around three years ago that the hybrid missal was coming (worse than previously expected to be) and that only the SSPX would keep the 1962 Missal and only for a couple of years but eventually adopt the new missal. Could this be the time?
    Quote


    https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/bp-fellay-discusses-prelature-rumors

    A Personal Prelature
     
    Bishop Fellay then commented on a project of Personal Prelature which had been offered to the SSPX in the summer of 2015. As he already said on January 26, 2016, such a canonical structure fits the needs and the actual apostolate and presence of the Society all over the world. He revealed that the written proposal given to the SSPX foresees that prelate should be a bishop. How would the prelate be designated? The Pope would choose amongst the three names presented by the SSPX through its own elections. It is also foreseen, said Bishop Fellay, that other auxiliary bishops would be given to the Society.
     
    Everything that exists now will be recognized all over the world. And the faithful also! They will be in this Prelature with the right to receive the sacraments and teachings from the Society’s priests. It will be also possible to receive religious congregations, as it is in a diocese: Capuchins, Benedictines, Carmelites, and others. This prelature is a Catholic structure which is not under the [authority of the local] bishops. It is autonomous.”
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)


    Offline Mark 79

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 9540
    • Reputation: +6255/-940
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX rumor
    « Reply #11 on: July 18, 2021, 04:36:51 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  •  European invasive species Vulpes vulpes (a.k.a. red fox)
    fox sniffing fresh brown bear scat :-)

    Offline Incredulous

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8901
    • Reputation: +8675/-849
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX rumor
    « Reply #12 on: July 18, 2021, 06:43:51 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • IF true, it would mean that Francis has chosen him to be the (trusted) bishop from the SSPX ranks to lead the Prelature. Remember that the new leadership had to be ratified by Francis. This MAY be the time to corral all the indult communities into the SSPX's Prelature. UNA VOCE MALTA had announced  around three years ago that the hybrid missal was coming (worse than previously expected to be) and that only the SSPX would keep the 1962 Missal and only for a couple of years but eventually adopt the new missal. Could this be the time?

    Yes, glad you mentioned the hybrid Mass.

    Bp. Fellay has made favorable comments towards hybridization in the past.

    Corral the trad goys and then change their Holy Sacrifice.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1889
    • Reputation: +500/-141
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX rumor
    « Reply #13 on: July 18, 2021, 07:52:01 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I disagree with your disagreement. You're in the minority here.

    Allow me to put this "opinion" you're defending -- the one you're saying isn't blatant hypocrisy -- into words:

    "The 1988 consecrations were great. The 2021 consecration of Fr. Pagliarani was great. But those consecrations done by +Williamson a few years earlier, under similar circuмstances and for the same reason? TOTALLY NOT LEGIT. The Church was practically flourishing at that time, under the beneficent tutelage of good Pope Francis. Consecrations without papal mandate during that time were TOTALLY unnecessary, totally schismatic, except for the one done just a few years later under the same Pope. That one was great."

    Yeah, I'm going to have to call out anyone holding the above-described opinion as being stupid in the extreme. Nothing personal.
    I'm aware I'm in the minority here, and I may well be wrong, but I'm still gonna push back in hopes of learning more.

    So essentially your argument is that the only way someone could disagree with the Williamson consecrations is either if they believe the Church is hunky dory under Pope Francis, or else they believe that episcopal consecrations without papal approval are never justified no matter what.  But I don't think those are the ONLY possible positions you could take.

    I can see a few other possibilities

    1: Someone might believe emergency consecrations are only justified if the alternative is the Traditional movement being very likely left without a bishop, in other words, you can't just consecrate as many bishops as you want *because* there's a crisis in the Church, but you can if there's a real possibility of Traditional mass and sacraments being wiped out if you didn't.  ONE COULD ARGUE that in a scenario where all of the original SSPX consecrands are still alive, its too early.

    2: Someone might believe emergency consecrations are only justified if any possibility of getting permission from the proper authorities without #1 happening has sailed.  And considering Francis gave permission for confessions, one might have thought that there was a real possibility of getting permission for an episcopal consecration, as naive as that might seem.

    3: If someone held to #2, he might have seen the recent repeal of the Motu Proprio as fundamentally changing the likelihood of getting some kind of permission (which is different than believing that the Church was in good shape.)

    4: On the other hand, if someone's basis was #1, I would agree that 2021 doesn't seem that much different than 2017.  However, if the SSPX were to wait until all of its bishops were near their deathbeds (like Lefebvre seemingly did) it would seem to at least be consistent, even if wrong.

    To be clear, all I'm saying is that I think you could be in good faith and believe that, just like you yourself would admit somebody can be in good faith and be a sedevacantist or an FSSPer.  I'm not saying I'm convinced that opinion is correct.






    Offline Jr1991

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 630
    • Reputation: +289/-84
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX rumor
    « Reply #14 on: July 18, 2021, 07:56:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Are the SSPX parishioners that far gone, that fully transformed into sheep that they don't think *at all* anymore?

    Do they wear masks for the rest of their lives, even in their car, as well? Despite all the reasons not to? Might as well not think at all anymore.

    I was just thinking about all those memes which succinctly capture the truth, contradictions, etc. on various issues -- but do those memes actually ever convert anyone or wake them up? Most of the time the answer is No, because they literally don't care about the truth. They just want to experience carnal pleasure, and live their easy lives of convenience. That's it.

    How does someone thumb up his nose at such clear, evident truths? They must have done something to merit that punishment from God.
    Yes. As long as they have the Latin Mass nearby, nothing else matters.