Author Topic: SSPX Rome Agreement and Despair (Read 5914 times)

bowler · « **on:** October 09, 2012, 09:12:20 AM »

There are different personalities, and thus different reactions to the ongoing negotiations to bring the SSPX inside of the orbit of conciliarist Rome.

There are the fighters, who may not admit it to themselves, but they like battles, and thus are always on red alert for any signs.

Then there are the delicate personalities that are scared to death of war, and what they will lose when they lose the war. These people never think that they could win the war, and will go into despair at the very thought of a battle.

Of course, then there are the majority of people who are in between, and vacillate between one side and the other.

I want to say here, that the fighters on this forum, need to be aware that their perceived battles can send many others into despair. On the other side, the delicate personalities need to remember that God is in control, and that truth will always win the battle. God is in control, no matter how dire the situation.

A good example of how God is in control was that when the Neo-SSPX was ready to sign on the dotted line, the pope asked for two new capitulations, and then he appointed a hardline progressivist (heretic) Bishop Mueller. Bishop Fellay was ready to sign, and God put a roadblock in front of him. God is in control.

For those that despair, I have some advice, and this is what this thread will be about, advice to help people not go into despair, to have hope.

My advice is to think of what is the worst that could happen, and then to remember, that if God allows it, it is for our own good. Once you envision what is the worst that could happen, then there will be no surprises, and one is prepared for it. Watch what unfolds before you, like you watch a movie, for you have the same control over the events as you do of a movie. Take care of what you can control, and your vocation, for most, the salvation of your family.

The worst case scenario is that Bishop Fellay accepts whatever Rome gives him, and your chapel will then be part of conciliar Rome. The way things are today in my SSPX chapel, I doubt I will see any difference, for they had already made changes over the years, without anyone noticing. We will go to mass just like all those "invisible" people who you see go to mass every Sunday (and more), but who never help with anything. As I see it, that is at least 80% of the people who go to the SSPX. Fade into the background like all the others, and fight your battles for your family's salvation. That is the worst case, as far as I see it.

God is in control, and He will refine the gold. Man will never understand the suffering, we do not think as God, who knows the good that will come of it.
There are two philosophies in life, one is the party and then the hangover,
the other is the fasting and then the feast. The second is always better, and is God's way. Trust in God, He knows what is best for us.

St. Ignatius of Loyola said: “work as if everything depends on you, pray as if everything depends on God.”

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #1 on:** October 09, 2012, 09:22:38 AM »

Generally a decent post.

I would opine, however, that the worst case scenario is a bit worse than the one you paint.

It would involve being cut off from the sacraments (voluntarily, in the case of an agreement with Rome, for all the reasons we cannot attent FSSP Masses; voluntarily by a further liberalization of the SSPX that manifests itself in doctrinal corruption; involuntarily, by being shown the door at the local parish for not going along with the preparation for a sellout, or protesting the liberalizations already accomplished).

But the general reminder that God is in charge is a good point, as is the reminder that there is no cause for despair because of that, whatever the worst case scenario.

PS: And I would probably be one of those you consider a "fighter," simply because when you perceive that what you have is being taken from you, acquiescense or resistence are the only 2 options, and I have chosen the latter.

bowler · « **Reply #2 on:** October 09, 2012, 10:41:20 AM »

Quote from: Seraphim

It would involve being cut off from the sacraments (voluntarily, in the case of an agreement with Rome, for all the reasons we cannot attent FSSP Masses; voluntarily by a further liberalization of the SSPX that manifests itself in doctrinal corruption; involuntarily, by being shown the door at the local parish for not going along with the preparation for a sellout, or protesting the liberalizations already accomplished)

How the battle is fought depends on the situation of each person. Single men have no one but themselves to put at risk, and their decision is their decision.
I'm not concerned for those single young men, and even those older marrieds without children, they are adults and can decide for themselves.

My concern is with the family man with children, and that is a totally different story. His decision will affect his wife and children. The father must be prudent in his actions. A rash decision, an emotion filled fast decision, can affect the whole family for life. A father must be "wise as a snake, and meek as a dove". I do not recommend that any family man take a position of direct hostile opposition to any changes, without exhausting all other avenues. The attitude of the family man should be one of a wise underground resistance. Like for instance posting the "goings on" at his chapel, and news, about "further liberalization of the SSPX that manifestations of doctrinal corruption", and speaking out against the injustice, the harshness of "showing the door" to those that disagree.

Here's another example, right now, we have 75% of the SSPX bishops on our side. The other side is most imprudent to ignore the majority of bishops, specially since they (accordistas) are advocating change. They are advocating change from what has always been, and they are ignoring 3 bishops, to go along with one. Two strikes against them, they are in the minority, and they advocate change. Can 3 bishops be crazy in not wanting these changes, and 1 bishop correct in wanting to change what has always been? This is a prudent argument, you are not against anything, you only consider it imprudent to disregard the 3 bishops, and go for change.

JuanDiego · « **Reply #3 on:** October 09, 2012, 10:44:22 AM »

The greatest help for me not to dispair is to always keep in mind that God brings good out of all negatives. When I came to the realization that I had to stop atttending the NO mass and stick exclusively with the TLM I did so believing that it was God who was motivating me and He would undertake for me and show me what to do. I was at the local SSPX within 2 weeks, and I didn't know anything about their group except their name and did not know where the chapel was when I made the decision. I had never heard of ABL because I was a convert. So, God is ABLE and WILLING to back up our good decisions in His grace at all times.

magdalena · « **Reply #4 on:** October 09, 2012, 08:51:31 PM »

Quote from: JuanDiego

The greatest help for me not to dispair is to always keep in mind that God brings good out of all negatives. When I came to the realization that I had to stop atttending the NO mass and stick exclusively with the TLM I did so believing that it was God who was motivating me and He would undertake for me and show me what to do. I was at the local SSPX within 2 weeks, and I didn't know anything about their group except their name and did not know where the chapel was when I made the decision. I had never heard of ABL because I was a convert. So, God is ABLE and WILLING to back up our good decisions in His grace at all times.

Yes, JuanDiego, God will not let us down, if we do not let Him down, though it may be different than what we think.

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #5 on:** October 09, 2012, 09:30:00 PM »

Again:

Generally another good post.

And as a father of many children, I see things in the same light.

Where I would disagree is with your opinion that we still have 3 bishops against the one.

In reality we have one bishop who will oppose Menzingen with words, but as yet has not taken any concrete actions to oppose this policy.

Then we have the 2 other bishops who voted for the scandalous declaration and 6 conditions left dangling before the Romans to re-enter negotiations for a merely practical accord at any time.

These latter may (or may not) be with us privately, but they also have said or done nothing to oppose the scandalous declaration and 6 conditions.

So the reality is that we have 1 bishop who opposes with words, and 2 who absent themselves from the entire debate, versus 1 in Menzingen who acts with robust measures to accomplish his objective.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to predict who will win if things continue like this.

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: Seraphim

It would involve being cut off from the sacraments (voluntarily, in the case of an agreement with Rome, for all the reasons we cannot attent FSSP Masses; voluntarily by a further liberalization of the SSPX that manifests itself in doctrinal corruption; involuntarily, by being shown the door at the local parish for not going along with the preparation for a sellout, or protesting the liberalizations already accomplished)

How the battle is fought depends on the situation of each person. Single men have no one but themselves to put at risk, and their decision is their decision.
I'm not concerned for those single young men, and even those older marrieds without children, they are adults and can decide for themselves.

My concern is with the family man with children, and that is a totally different story. His decision will affect his wife and children. The father must be prudent in his actions. A rash decision, an emotion filled fast decision, can affect the whole family for life. A father must be "wise as a snake, and meek as a dove". I do not recommend that any family man take a position of direct hostile opposition to any changes, without exhausting all other avenues. The attitude of the family man should be one of a wise underground resistance. Like for instance posting the "goings on" at his chapel, and news, about "further liberalization of the SSPX that manifestations of doctrinal corruption", and speaking out against the injustice, the harshness of "showing the door" to those that disagree.

Here's another example, right now, we have 75% of the SSPX bishops on our side. The other side is most imprudent to ignore the majority of bishops, specially since they (accordistas) are advocating change. They are advocating change from what has always been, and they are ignoring 3 bishops, to go along with one. Two strikes against them, they are in the minority, and they advocate change. Can 3 bishops be crazy in not wanting these changes, and 1 bishop correct in wanting to change what has always been? This is a prudent argument, you are not against anything, you only consider it imprudent to disregard the 3 bishops, and go for change.

Hobbledehoy · « **Reply #6 on:** October 09, 2012, 10:54:47 PM »

The victory of the faithful over the insidious attacks of the votaries of anti-Christ will be granted through the maternal solicitude, sweet patronage and dread power of the great Mother of God, the Immaculate Virgin Mary.

It shall be by her Holy Rosary and Sacred Scapular that the liberty and exaltation of Holy Mother Church, together with the enfranchisement of Christendom by the acknowledgment of the social kingship of Our Lord Jesus Christ, shall be granted to those who persevere in the ceaseless war with the infernal powers and their human abettors (Eph. cap. vi., 12), as well as against the concupiscence of the flesh, the concupiscence of the eyes and the pride of life (I S. Joann. cap. ii., 16) by penance and mortification.

Here is a translation of the Marian adaptation of Psalm cxliii written by the great Seraphic Doctor, Saint Bonaventure: to be found in the latter of his works in the tome The Mirror of the Blessed Virgin Mary (Speculum Beatae Mariae Virginis) and The Psalter of Our Lady (Psalterium Beatae Mariae Virginis) (trans. Sr. Mary Emmanuel, O.S.B.; St. Louis, MO: B. Herder Book Co., 1932).

Francisco · « **Reply #7 on:** October 10, 2012, 12:18:51 AM »

Quote from: Hobbledehoy

The victory of the faithful over the insidious attacks of the votaries of anti-Christ will be granted through the maternal solicitude, sweet patronage and dread power of the great Mother of God, the Immaculate Virgin Mary.

It shall be by her Holy Rosary and Sacred Scapular that the liberty and exaltation of Holy Mother Church, together with the enfranchisement of Christendom by the acknowledgment of the social kingship of Our Lord Jesus Christ, shall be granted to those who persevere in the ceaseless war with the infernal powers and their human abettors (Eph. cap. vi., 12), as well as against the concupiscence of the flesh, the concupiscence of the eyes and the pride of life (I S. Joann. cap. ii., 16) by penance and mortification.

Here is a translation of the Marian adaptation of Psalm cxliii written by the great Seraphic Doctor, Saint Bonaventure: to be found in the latter of his works in the tome The Mirror of the Blessed Virgin Mary (Speculum Beatae Mariae Virginis) and The Psalter of Our Lady (Psalterium Beatae Mariae Virginis) (trans. Sr. Mary Emmanuel, O.S.B.; St. Louis, MO: B. Herder Book Co., 1932).

Thanks very much for this post!

bowler · « **Reply #8 on:** October 10, 2012, 09:05:39 AM »

Quote from: Seraphim

Where I would disagree is with your opinion that we still have 3 bishops against the one.

In reality we have one bishop who will oppose Menzingen with words, but as yet has not taken any concrete actions to oppose this policy.

Then we have the 2 other bishops who voted for the scandalous declaration and 6 conditions left dangling before the Romans to re-enter negotiations for a merely practical accord at any time.

These latter may (or may not) be with us privately, but they also have said or done nothing to oppose the scandalous declaration and 6 conditions.

So the reality is that we have 1 bishop who opposes with words, and 2 who absent themselves from the entire debate, versus 1 in Menzingen who acts with robust measures to accomplish his objective.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to predict who will win if things continue like this.

Bishop Tissier de Mallerais spoke against the accord at the ordinations in Winona, Bishop de Galarreta has spoken publicly against it too. They have publicly and many times come out against any agreement with Rome. Therefore, I don't see how you conclude as you do with regard to my comment that we have three bishops on our side.

As far as your comment that "It doesn't take a rocket scientist to predict who will win if things continue like this", I totally disagree with you. It is defeatest to think that way. Menzingen crowd are just a few people, a house of cards. They can be toppled. Why do you think they are so affraid of the internet forums? If they had the power that you believe, they would care less about the internet forums.

Very few priests are running this Novus-SSPX facade. If we eliminated three priests in the USA, the whole thing would topple there, and the Novus SSPX in South America is hanging on by a thread. Those are two big continents, others can comment on France and Europe.

Ethelred · « **Reply #9 on:** October 10, 2012, 09:21:17 AM »

Quote from: bowler

Those are two big continents, others can comment on France and Europe.

The poor French district superior doesn't even dare to confirm in private what he and the other ~100 priests, professors etc from France have been told by Bp Fellay himself one or so months ago, when Bp F said to them that he would have been deceived by the Newpope...
(See the quotations of Dump Ox, also here on Cathinfo).

And when this French district superior publicly attacked Assisi III a while ago, he got formally admonished by Bp Fellay. So it looks like now he's been put in line with Menzingen.
(Fr. Chazal tells the whole Asissi III story in one of his recent sermons.)

And concerning the other big district, the German one: let's forget it, too. Its district superior Fr. Schmidberger always follow those who have "the power".

Well, Menzingen does only tolerate superiors who're yes-men. (Maybe also Fr. Chazal said so, but I forgot.)

Skunkwurxsspx · « **Reply #10 on:** October 10, 2012, 10:46:55 AM »

What an insightful and thoughtful piece, bowler. Thank you very much!

bowler · « **Reply #11 on:** October 10, 2012, 11:01:39 AM »

Quote from: Skunkwurxsspx

What an insightful and thoughtful piece, bowler. Thank you very much!

Do you have any relation to this brave Mexican hero?:

John Grace · « **Reply #12 on:** October 10, 2012, 11:18:35 AM »

Quote from: Ethelred

Quote from: bowler
Those are two big continents, others can comment on France and Europe.

The poor French district superior doesn't even dare to confirm in private what he and the other ~100 priests, professors etc from France have been told by Bp Fellay himself one or so months ago, when Bp F said to them that he would have been deceived by the Newpope...
(See the quotations of Dump Ox, also here on Cathinfo).

And when this French district superior publicly attacked Assisi III a while ago, he got formally admonished by Bp Fellay. So it looks like now he's been put in line with Menzingen.
(Fr. Chazal tells the whole Asissi III story in one of his recent sermons.)

And concerning the other big district, the German one: let's forget it, too. Its district superior Fr. Schmidberger always follow those who have "the power".

Well, Menzingen does only tolerate superiors who're yes-men. (Maybe also Fr. Chazal said so, but I forgot.)

The Society priests are under enormous pressure. However, it is true "Menzingen crowd are just a few people, a house of cards. They can be toppled".

Naturally Bishop Fellay got his Yes men in the key positions in advance of a deal with Rome but things haven't gone to plan.It's obvious to state Bishop Fellay has problems.There is opposition as the latest letter from South America indicates.

Skunkwurxsspx · « **Reply #13 on:** October 10, 2012, 11:35:32 AM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: Skunkwurxsspx
What an insightful and thoughtful piece, bowler. Thank you very much!

Do you have any relation to this brave Mexican hero?:

Ha! Ha! Ha! Talvez!!!

--El Zorrillo!!!

Ethelred · « **Reply #14 on:** October 10, 2012, 02:30:00 PM »

Quote from: John Grace

The Society priests are under enormous pressure. However, it is true "Menzingen crowd are just a few people, a house of cards. They can be toppled".

Naturally Bishop Fellay got his Yes men in the key positions in advance of a deal with Rome but things haven't gone to plan.It's obvious to state Bishop Fellay has problems.There is opposition as the latest letter from South America indicates.

Yes, the American districts or at least a series of their priests are doing very well.
However the European districts are silently following the betrayers in Menzingen. I know that there are European individual priests who innerly resist (and those who spoke loud but got silenced), but they have no coordinators, no leaders... I'm afraid the SSPX in Europe is done.