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Author Topic: SSPX Question  (Read 1967 times)

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Offline poche

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SSPX Question
« on: May 18, 2013, 03:34:11 AM »
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  • I understand that there was quite a bit of disension in the SSPX when it was revealed that there might be an arrangement with the Vatcan. But now that there is not going to be a deal, why all the bickering? Why this affair with Bishop Williamson? Why the formation of a new organization called the SSPX SO? Why the animosity between the SSPX and the SSPX SO if the SSPX is not going to have an arrangement? Why this situation of denial of Holy Communion because of a preference for or a percieved preferenne for SSPX SO?


    Offline Francisco

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    SSPX Question
    « Reply #1 on: May 18, 2013, 05:43:11 AM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    I understand that there was quite a bit of disension in the SSPX when it was revealed that there might be an arrangement with the Vatcan. But now that there is not going to be a deal, why all the bickering? Why this affair with Bishop Williamson? Why the formation of a new organization called the SSPX SO? Why the animosity between the SSPX and the SSPX SO if the SSPX is not going to have an arrangement? Why this situation of denial of Holy Communion because of a preference for or a percieved preferenne for SSPX SO?


    Poche, Bishop Fellay has not been unequivocal in saying that there is never going to be a deal. His cards are on the table in the form of a doctrinal declaration he signed. This declaration will be the basis for a future deal. His opponents say that he has compromised on doctrine and that Rome is as Modernist as ever. Hence the existence of the SSPX and the Resistance. The SSPX-MC (not SO) seems to be the only formally structured part of the Resistance to Bp Fellay, comprising of 3 former SSPX priests. The rest of the Resistance priests work as independents, and so does Bishop Williamson.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    SSPX Question
    « Reply #2 on: May 18, 2013, 06:53:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    I understand that there was quite a bit of disension in the SSPX when it was revealed that there might be an arrangement with the Vatcan. But now that there is not going to be a deal, why all the bickering? Why this affair with Bishop Williamson? Why the formation of a new organization called the SSPX SO? Why the animosity between the SSPX and the SSPX SO if the SSPX is not going to have an arrangement? Why this situation of denial of Holy Communion because of a preference for or a percieved preferenne for SSPX SO?


    Poche-

    1) There is not going to be a deal only because Our Lady prevented Rome from accepting Bishop Fellay's scandalous doctrinal declaration;

    2) However, the 2012 General Chapter Declaration still stands as an open invitation to the Romans as official SSPX policy;

    3) And despite the Talleyrand spin represented in Bishop Fellay's March, 2013 "Letter to Friends and Benefactors," in which he seems to be talking traditional again, it is only because he does not perceive a deal to be possible at this time, because of ROMAN disinterest;

    4) That 2012 GC declaration mutated the traditional position of the SSPX in dealings with Rome, and gave the green light to a merely practical accord, despite the persevering modernism in Rome;

    5) Effectively, this places legal unity over doctrinal integrity;

    6) The same General Chapter also produced 6 merely practical (and limp) conditions which, if met, would stand as surrender terms to Rome;

    7) All of this is still on the table, but wait.....there's more!

    8) We have also seen, finally, the degree to which Bishop Fellay was willing to go in order to get legal recognition in his scandalous April-2012 doctrinal declaration, in which, among other things, he accepts that Vatican II is traditional (?!?), and all of that garbage must be accepted as traditional...even the heretical Article 2 of Dignitatis Humanae;

    9) So he accepts that heresy is traditional, in this particular instance;

    10) He then writes a letter to BXVI, explaining his commitment to pursuing the path of a practical accord at the expense of considerable opposition within the SSPX, but vows to plow forward.

    11) There is therefore a perpetual trust issue in place, so long as his administration remains in power.

    12) We have his own words as the source of this distrust, and his own words acknowledging his revolutionary activity as a cause of division, which he dishonestly seeks to deflect to Bishop Williamson (for failing to go along with the revolution?);

    13) Menzingen cannot ignore the existence of Bishop Williamson, because the latter is a thorn in their side by continuing to point out the truth; an embarrassment to the lie that is attempting to be justified  (just as the SSPX used to be a sign of contradiction to Rome and the false doctrines of V2);

    14) They are so afraid of his existence, they feel it necessary to build a new seminary at considerable (and unnecessary) expense, just to escape the ghost of Bishop Williamson in Winona;

    15) If there is a new formation of priests (SSPX-SO), it is necessary to preserve the apostolate of the original SSPX, to come to the aid of souls caught in a state of grave spiritual necessity; to preserve a valid priesthood; to preserve the integral corpus of Catholic doctrine; to warn the faithful about the slow-drip poison coming from Menzingen which endangers all these things; this latter is not possible within the framework of the neo-SSPX;

    16) And that in itself is justification enough to found a new order which will allow priests to continue to faithfully serve God's Church.

    PS: With regard to the denial of Holy Communion: The neo-SSPX would say that it is justified in denial of Communion to notorious and public sinners.  They would be correct.  Problem is when they equate public resistance to the weakening of Faith and leftward drift in Menzingen as public sin.  I do not know enough about specific instances to apply the rules to the individual cases to opine whether withholding has been justified or not.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Raphaela

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    SSPX Question
    « Reply #3 on: May 18, 2013, 10:31:37 AM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    PS: With regard to the denial of Holy Communion: The neo-SSPX would say that it is justified in denial of Communion to notorious and public sinners.  They would be correct.  Problem is when they equate public resistance to the weakening of Faith and leftward drift in Menzingen as public sin.  I do not know enough about specific instances to apply the rules to the individual cases to opine whether withholding has been justified or not.


    Notorious and public sin, for the neo-SSPX, means going to a Mass said by Father Pfeiffer or Father Chazal (going to the Novus Ordo or the Indult is not a public sin!), or moderating a website that criticizes the neo-SSPX. I don't think it very likely that any of these individual cases involves notorious adultery or running an abortion clinic, for example.

    Father Pfeiffer has a very good sermon on this here:



    Offline Mithrandylan

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    SSPX Question
    « Reply #4 on: May 18, 2013, 11:03:24 AM »
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  • Sean that was a great post. We could call it 'the sixteen points'  

    A succinct and thorough treating to the question of 'why not the neosspx/why the resistance?'

    From phone
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Caminus

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    SSPX Question
    « Reply #5 on: May 18, 2013, 08:36:51 PM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    Quote from: poche
    I understand that there was quite a bit of disension in the SSPX when it was revealed that there might be an arrangement with the Vatcan. But now that there is not going to be a deal, why all the bickering? Why this affair with Bishop Williamson? Why the formation of a new organization called the SSPX SO? Why the animosity between the SSPX and the SSPX SO if the SSPX is not going to have an arrangement? Why this situation of denial of Holy Communion because of a preference for or a percieved preferenne for SSPX SO?


    Poche-

    1) There is not going to be a deal only because Our Lady prevented Rome from accepting Bishop Fellay's scandalous doctrinal declaration;

    2) However, the 2012 General Chapter Declaration still stands as an open invitation to the Romans as official SSPX policy;

    3) And despite the Talleyrand spin represented in Bishop Fellay's March, 2013 "Letter to Friends and Benefactors," in which he seems to be talking traditional again, it is only because he does not perceive a deal to be possible at this time, because of ROMAN disinterest;

    4) That 2012 GC declaration mutated the traditional position of the SSPX in dealings with Rome, and gave the green light to a merely practical accord, despite the persevering modernism in Rome;

    5) Effectively, this places legal unity over doctrinal integrity;

    6) The same General Chapter also produced 6 merely practical (and limp) conditions which, if met, would stand as surrender terms to Rome;

    7) All of this is still on the table, but wait.....there's more!

    8) We have also seen, finally, the degree to which Bishop Fellay was willing to go in order to get legal recognition in his scandalous April-2012 doctrinal declaration, in which, among other things, he accepts that Vatican II is traditional (?!?), and all of that garbage must be accepted as traditional...even the heretical Article 2 of Dignitatis Humanae;

    9) So he accepts that heresy is traditional, in this particular instance;

    10) He then writes a letter to BXVI, explaining his commitment to pursuing the path of a practical accord at the expense of considerable opposition within the SSPX, but vows to plow forward.

    11) There is therefore a perpetual trust issue in place, so long as his administration remains in power.

    12) We have his own words as the source of this distrust, and his own words acknowledging his revolutionary activity as a cause of division, which he dishonestly seeks to deflect to Bishop Williamson (for failing to go along with the revolution?);

    13) Menzingen cannot ignore the existence of Bishop Williamson, because the latter is a thorn in their side by continuing to point out the truth; an embarrassment to the lie that is attempting to be justified  (just as the SSPX used to be a sign of contradiction to Rome and the false doctrines of V2);

    14) They are so afraid of his existence, they feel it necessary to build a new seminary at considerable (and unnecessary) expense, just to escape the ghost of Bishop Williamson in Winona;

    15) If there is a new formation of priests (SSPX-SO), it is necessary to preserve the apostolate of the original SSPX, to come to the aid of souls caught in a state of grave spiritual necessity; to preserve a valid priesthood; to preserve the integral corpus of Catholic doctrine; to warn the faithful about the slow-drip poison coming from Menzingen which endangers all these things; this latter is not possible within the framework of the neo-SSPX;

    16) And that in itself is justification enough to found a new order which will allow priests to continue to faithfully serve God's Church.

    PS: With regard to the denial of Holy Communion: The neo-SSPX would say that it is justified in denial of Communion to notorious and public sinners.  They would be correct.  Problem is when they equate public resistance to the weakening of Faith and leftward drift in Menzingen as public sin.  I do not know enough about specific instances to apply the rules to the individual cases to opine whether withholding has been justified or not.


    This kind of reasoning sounds awfully familiar.  Where have I witnessed a similar defect before?  Ah yes, in the writings of the nitwit Dimond brothers.  Sean, it's truly a wonder that you seem to have zero shame.  It makes me think you're in bad faith.    

    Offline parentsfortruth

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    SSPX Question
    « Reply #6 on: May 18, 2013, 08:52:21 PM »
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  • Oh, it's Caminus again.

     :rolleyes:
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    SSPX Question
    « Reply #7 on: May 18, 2013, 09:29:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: parentsfortruth
    Oh, it's Caminus again.

     :rolleyes:


    Someone get me a fly swatter.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Adolphus

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    SSPX Question
    « Reply #8 on: May 18, 2013, 09:43:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson

    1) There is not going to be a deal only because Our Lady prevented Rome from accepting Bishop Fellay's scandalous doctrinal declaration;


    I am not sure about this.  I had thought that it was the devil who was preventing Rome from accepting the agreement.  I see it this way: once the agreement is accepted, if this ever happens, many of those who now stay with Bp. Fellay would abandon him.  However, due to the fact that the doctrinal declaration was refused, there is not an agreement and therefore many see that as a sign that the SSPX is not for an agreement which compromises the Faith.  Just read Poche's post ...

    So, the more the agreement is delayed, the more division within traditionalism.

    Quote from: SeanJohnson
    3) And despite the Talleyrand spin represented in Bishop Fellay's March, 2013 "Letter to Friends and Benefactors," in which he seems to be talking traditional again, it is only because he does not perceive a deal to be possible at this time, because of ROMAN disinterest;

    And more important, IMHO, Bp. Fellay does perceive the possibility of loosing more priests and faithful.

    Quote from: SeanJohnson
    4) That 2012 GC declaration mutated the traditional position of the SSPX in dealings with Rome, and gave the green light to a merely practical accord, despite the persevering modernism in Rome;

    We cannot ignore the fact that, many years before 2012, Bp. Fellay had shown signs of trying to reach an agreement with rome.  It is not just the GC declaration, it is the fact that Bp. Fellay lied and deceive when telling he wouldn't ask for the lifting of something did not even exist (the excommunications), it is the thanks-giving letter because of the lifting of the excommunications, it the acceptance of the [/i]motu proprio Summorum pontificuм[/i], it is the fact of attributing the Virgin Mary those execrable docuмents (the letter to lift the excommunications and the Summorum pontificuм), and many more.

    Let's consider that some priests abandoned the SSPX since 2008 or 2009 because of these facts.

    Offline For Greater Glory

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    SSPX Question
    « Reply #9 on: May 18, 2013, 09:46:57 PM »
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  • Poche,
         Do you really think everything should be okay after all that Bishop Fellay, Fr. Rostandt, etc. have said and done and have not lifted one finger to see that justice and reparation is done!!!!  Our dear Lord alone knows how much pain and suffering these bishops and priests have caused other bishops and priests and the laity!!!  No, Bishop Williamson and the other good priests around the world have been cast out, because they dared to stand for Our Lord. If only we could do the same!!!!    Long live Christ the King and the Virgin of Guadalupe!!!