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Author Topic: SSPX Pushing the Dialogue Masses (Again)  (Read 2990 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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SSPX Pushing the Dialogue Masses (Again)
« on: September 06, 2019, 02:42:28 PM »
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  • Received this in my email from the new priest:

    Dear Faithful,

    May God bless you all!

    It is the custom for every low Mass at the Academy chapel to be a dialogue Mass.  I understand there is a little confusion as to which prayers are to be recited by the faithful at such Masses. 

    This e-mail is just to clarify. The prayers recited by the faithful include:
    • the responses said by the altar boys
    • the commons of the Mass (i.e. Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei)
    • the Domine Non Sum Dignus before the communion of the faithful

    I hope this helps and please let me know if you have any questions.


    In the Immaculate Heart,
    Fr. Graziano
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: SSPX Pushing the Dialogue Masses (Again)
    « Reply #1 on: September 06, 2019, 02:51:32 PM »
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  • How much time has to pass for something to become a custom?   :(
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Pushing the Dialogue Masses (Again)
    « Reply #2 on: September 06, 2019, 05:58:48 PM »
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  • Received this in my email from the new priest:

    Dear Faithful,

    May God bless you all!

    It is the custom for every low Mass at the Academy chapel to be a dialogue Mass.  I understand there is a little confusion as to which prayers are to be recited by the faithful at such Masses.

    This e-mail is just to clarify. The prayers recited by the faithful include:
    • the responses said by the altar boys
    • the commons of the Mass (i.e. Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei)
    • the Domine Non Sum Dignus before the communion of the faithful

    I hope this helps and please let me know if you have any questions.


    In the Immaculate Heart,
    Fr. Graziano
    Dear Faithful, 

    One added clarification:  the e-mail below should read that it is the custom for every public low Mass at the Academy chapel to be a dialogue Mass.  

    Thank you and God bless.

    In the Immaculate,
    Fr. Graziano
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: SSPX Pushing the Dialogue Masses (Again)
    « Reply #3 on: September 06, 2019, 06:42:44 PM »
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  • Dear Faithful,

    One added clarification:  the e-mail below should read that it is the custom for every public low Mass at the Academy chapel to be a dialogue Mass.  

    Thank you and God bless.

    In the Immaculate,
    Fr. Graziano
    Hi Sean,
    Did you reply to his e-mail to ask for a clarification on "what custom?" as Dialogue Masses were not the custom in the USA, and it was not the custom in your SSPX chapel nor was it the custom in all he Catholic Church before 1930.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Pushing the Dialogue Masses (Again)
    « Reply #4 on: September 06, 2019, 09:50:28 PM »
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  • Hi Sean,
    Did you reply to his e-mail to ask for a clarification on "what custom?" as Dialogue Masses were not the custom in the USA, and it was not the custom in your SSPX chapel nor was it the custom in all he Catholic Church before 1930.

    Hello Mr. G-

    I was tempted to respond, but there really would be no point.

    I am pretty sure his answer (which would be dictated to him from Chicago) would be something along the lines of, "It has been the custom at the Academy."

    What people from other states might not know is that the chapel is on a separate property from the chapel, and the two are about 40 miles apart: The chapel is located in St. Paul proper, and the Academy is located about 40 miles to the north.

    Apparently, this odd arrangement came about when a family who lived up north donated land for the academy, thus splitting the parish.

    Ever since, there has been a dilemna for families: Should we locate near the chapel where weekly Mass will be, or up at the Academy where our children will go to school.

    About 70% of the chapel's total population live closer to the school, as they chose to locate there to eliminate the driving burden (as we did).

    Yet, they made the odd decision to have no regularly scheduled Masses at the Academy chapel (which is about the same capacity as the St. Paul chapel).

    Consequently, the majority of parishioners are forced to brave the treacherous Minnesota winter (and the last couple years we have had snow in May, and 10+ inch snowfalls in April) to make 80-100 mile round trips (which, depending on road conditions, might take hours each way).

    The rationale given is that the SSPX does not want to split the parish (WHY??), thereby burdening the parishioners.

    And now this enforcement of "all low Masses being dialogue Masses" means that unless the people can take an active part, the SSPX won't say Mass (like in the Novus Ordo): You either sing or talk.  No other option.

    The SSPX is going to pound "active participation" = vocal participation into you one way or the other.

    Rome is smiling.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: SSPX Pushing the Dialogue Masses (Again)
    « Reply #5 on: September 08, 2019, 01:54:27 AM »
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  • It is the custom for every low Mass at the Academy chapel to be a dialogue Mass.  I understand there is a little confusion as to which prayers are to be recited by the faithful at such Masses.

    This e-mail is just to clarify. The prayers recited by the faithful include:
    • the responses said by the altar boys
    • the commons of the Mass (i.e. Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei)
    • the Domine Non Sum Dignus before the communion of the faithful

    I hope this helps and please let me know if you have any questions.


    In the Immaculate Heart,
    Fr. Graziano
    The dialogue mass is a novelty that never went anywhere in English speaking countries, but caught on in France. In the USA 23% of Catholics go to mass on Sundays, in France less then 4%. France is not a place to emulate. The dialogue mass is effeminate, it is likely one of the reasons that no men go to mass in France. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: SSPX Pushing the Dialogue Masses (Again)
    « Reply #6 on: September 08, 2019, 03:52:38 AM »
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  • The dialogue mass is a novelty that never went anywhere in English speaking countries, but caught on in France. In the USA 23% of Catholics go to mass on Sundays, in France less then 4%. France is not a place to emulate. The dialogue mass is effeminate, it is likely one of the reasons that no men go to mass in France.
    Wasn't the dialog mass used in convents and monasteries of nuns?

    Remote monasteries out in the country and on mountain tops do not have the luxury of small boys coming to serve Mass.

    When I was in the monastery, the nuns would say the responses to the Latin Mass, and the nuns would chant all the hours of the Divine Office. We never had any altar boys.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline cosmas

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    Re: SSPX Pushing the Dialogue Masses (Again)
    « Reply #7 on: September 08, 2019, 10:59:22 AM »
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  • I found out Saint Mary's has dialogue Mass for the High School and started some of the grade school kids. Getting them ready for the switch over to Novus Ordo. 


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: SSPX Pushing the Dialogue Masses (Again)
    « Reply #8 on: September 09, 2019, 06:45:51 AM »
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  • I found out Saint Mary's has dialogue Mass for the High School and started some of the grade school kids. Getting them ready for the switch over to Novus Ordo.
    Ditto at my chapel school. 
    It is likely done at all SSPX schools and as you state "Getting them ready for the switch over to Novus Ordo".
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: SSPX Pushing the Dialogue Masses (Again)
    « Reply #9 on: September 09, 2019, 09:18:57 AM »
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  • Looking back at the Mass during persecutions even at homes or farm fields in USA, there weren’t dialogue Masses.  

    Dialogue Masses are distracting from prayer and can be mechanical.   

    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline claudel

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    Re: SSPX Pushing the Dialogue Masses (Again)
    « Reply #10 on: September 09, 2019, 03:32:12 PM »
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  • Wasn't the dialog mass used in convents and monasteries of nuns?

    If memory serves—I cannot locate the specific docuмent at this moment—the original indult for celebration of Mass where the server's responses were voiced by the congregation was issued in the early 1920s by Pius XI to a specific convent. That is, it was a permission granted as an exception to a rule, and it was granted to cloistered religious, not to lay Catholics en masse. (As Pius XI celebrated Mass in dialogue form precisely twice in his life, he can hardly be said to have been an active proponent of the practice. Similarly, his predecessor, Benedict XV, used the dialogue form just once.)

    The limited permission, however, was seized upon by liturgical "reformers" to such an extent that in 1922 the Curia's Congregation of Rites formally recommended against the use of congregational response and prefaced its remarks by saying, "Things that in themselves are licit are not always expedient."

    The material linked here and here may be found helpful.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Pushing the Dialogue Masses (Again)
    « Reply #11 on: September 09, 2019, 04:14:13 PM »
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  • If memory serves—I cannot locate the specific docuмent at this moment—the original indult for celebration of Mass where the server's responses were voiced by the congregation was issued in the early 1920s by Pius XI to a specific convent. That is, it was a permission granted as an exception to a rule, and it was granted to cloistered religious, not to lay Catholics en masse. (As Pius XI celebrated Mass in dialogue form precisely twice in his life, he can hardly be said to have been an active proponent of the practice. Similarly, his predecessor, Benedict XV, used the dialogue form just once.)

    The limited permission, however, was seized upon by liturgical "reformers" to such an extent that in 1922 the Curia's Congregation of Rites formally recommended against the use of congregational response and prefaced its remarks by saying, "Things that in themselves are licit are not always expedient."

    The material linked here and here may be found helpful.

    First-year seminarians learned this in Fr. Iscara's Liturgy I class, in which he read from the (French-language) memoirs of Dom Lambert Beauduin (proto-liturgical modernist).

    The latter helped organize experimental liturgical conferences in Assisi, Mont Cesar, Maria Laach, St. Michael's Abbey, and elsewhere, in which the new ideas were proliferated, and a subversive marketing plan to sieze indults from known modernist bishops like Cardinal Mercier (now coming back up to surface in the reign of Benedict XV, who suppressed the Sodalitium Pianum) was hatched.

    In this way, the modernist experimenters/subversives would broaden their base, and expand their network, which safely hidden from the public eye by the monastic cloister and episcopal protection/sponsorship.

    Hand missals with Latin-vernacular translations, dialogue, versus populum, and all manner of modernism were contrived from these monastic conferences, and placed under the protection of the modernist bishops, who in turn acted as liasons between the reformers and Rome, helping to create the fictitious impression that there was a groundswell of support for these innovations (as though that should have justified the non-Catholic liturgical movement, already modernist by 1920).

    After learning all this, we would head off to the chapel every Saturday for....the Dialogue Mass.

    Completely incoherent, but that's the way it was (and probably still is).

    PS: I have often wondered if the SSPX thinks to have learned from the success of these subversive modernist liturgists, and emulated their plan with regard to their ralliement with modernist Rome (e.g., all the secrecy and Roman/diocesan networking, etc.).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Pushing the Dialogue Masses (Again)
    « Reply #12 on: September 09, 2019, 04:37:37 PM »
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  • First-year seminarians learned this in Fr. Iscara's Liturgy I class, in which he read from the (French-language) memoirs of Dom Lambert Beauduin (proto-liturgical modernist).

    The latter helped organize experimental liturgical conferences in Assisi, Mont Cesar, Maria Laach, St. Michael's Abbey, and elsewhere, in which the new ideas were proliferated, and a subversive marketing plan to sieze indults from known modernist bishops like Cardinal Mercier (now coming back up to surface in the reign of Benedict XV, who suppressed the Sodalitium Pianum) was hatched.

    In this way, the modernist experimenters/subversives would broaden their base, and expand their network, which safely hidden from the public eye by the monastic cloister and episcopal protection/sponsorship.

    Hand missals with Latin-vernacular translations, dialogue, versus populum, and all manner of modernism were contrived from these monastic conferences, and placed under the protection of the modernist bishops, who in turn acted as liasons between the reformers and Rome, helping to create the fictitious impression that there was a groundswell of support for these innovations (as though that should have justified the non-Catholic liturgical movement, already modernist by 1920).

    After learning all this, we would head off to the chapel every Saturday for....the Dialogue Mass.

    Completely incoherent, but that's the way it was (and probably still is).

    PS: I have often wondered if the SSPX thinks to have learned from the success of these subversive modernist liturgists, and emulated their plan with regard to their ralliement with modernist Rome (e.g., all the secrecy and Roman/diocesan networking, etc.).

    About Dom Lambert Beauduin from:
    How Firm A Foundation: Leaders of the Liturgical Movement, (pp. 23–28) by Richard G. Leggett.
    http://liturgicalleaders.blogspot.com/2011/10/lambert-beauduin-osb.html


    "Heart and Soul of the Belgian Liturgical Movement
    Beauduin’s nascent commitment to the liturgy came to flower during 1908–1910. Sometime prior to 1909, Beauduin was said to have burst into the class he was to teach and to have exploded, “I’ve just realized that the liturgy is the center of the piety of the church!” In 1909, Beauduin presented a paper on the liturgy at Malines and in November, the journal Questions liturgiques (later Questions liturgiques et paroissales) began publication with Beauduin as editor. In June of 1910, the first Liturgical Week was held at Mont César. The goal of the early liturgical movement was “to restore Christian spirituality [and] the means proposed was the restoration of the parochial High Mass on Sunday, with full participation.”

    From 1909 until 1921, Beauduin was the heart and soul of the Belgian liturgical movement. Such activity was not welcomed in all quarters and Beauduin’s critics were many. In response to his critics, Beauduin wrote his only monograph, La piété de l’église (Liturgy, the Life of the Church, English edition, 1926), published on the eve of World War I. In a memorable chapter entitled “The Sad Consequences of the Present Condition,” Beauduin enumerates the results of the failure to maintain the liturgy as the center of true Christian piety: individualism, abandonment of prayer, deviations of piety, the secular spirit and the lack of hierarchical life. Later in the book, Beauduin gives his goals for the liturgical movement:

    Behind these goals for liturgical renewal lay Beauduin’s own reflection on his experience of and attitudes toward the liturgy prior to his “awakening”:
    Quote
    You’ll excuse my frankness, but the missal was for me a closed and sealed book. And this ignorance extended not only to the variable parts [of the Mass], but even to the unchanging parts and principally to the canon . . . Even the great and perfect acts of worship, the principal end of the Mass, of participation in the sacrifice in communion with the body of the Lord, the spiritual offering of our good acts . . . in short, none of the great realities that the eucharistic liturgy constantly puts into act, nor one dominated my eucharistic piety. . . . Visits to the Blessed Sacrament had a more vital role in my piety than the act of sacrifice itself.
    In 1921, Beauduin was appointed to serve as professor of fundamental theology at Sant’ Anselmo. These years saw the awakening of Beauduin’s awareness of the Christian East. He developed plans for a biritual monastery of Benedictine monks (to be located at Amay) who, by their knowledge and love of both Latin and Eastern rites, theology and piety, would serve as a witness to the East and foster eventual unity. By 1926, he had received permission to begin a monastery with five novices.

    Within a month of opening its doors, Amay received canonical status from the Congregation for the Oriental Church. Irénikon, a journal devoted to the study of the Eastern church, began publication the same year. Beauduin’s vision of the unity of the church extended westward as well; contacts with Anglicans during World War I had quickened his interest in and participation (by correspondence) in the Malines Conversations. Opposition to his openness to Anglicanism and to his work at Amay (both from Benedictine superiors and curial officials) resulted in Beauduin’s eventual ecclesiastical exile from Belgium.

    Exile from Belgium
    It was during the period of Beauduin’s professorship at Sant’ Anselmo that his influence was transported to the North American continent. A young American monk, Virgil Michel, came to Rome to study. He quickly absorbed the teaching of Beauduin and was inspired to begin the liturgical apostolate on his return to the United States.

    From 1931 to 1951, Beauduin was forbidden to return to Amay or Mont César or to enter Belgium. During this period, he served as a chaplain to two convents in France. He traveled widely and wrote frequently. In 1943, he was among the founders of the Centre de Pastorale Liturgique in Paris. In 1944, Beauduin renewed an old friendship with the papal nuncio to France, Angelo Roncalli (later John XXIII).

    Beauduin’s exile ended in 1951 and he returned to the monastery he had founded (low located at Chevetogne). There he lived in an active retirement, despite the crippling effects of rheumatoid arthritis, until his death on January 11, 1960.

    At his death, Beauduin knew that his vision slowly was coming to fruition. Chevetogne was thriving; Roncalli had been elected pope and called a council; the liturgical movement was alive and well on all fronts. Although Beauduin did not live to see it, the Anglican archbishop of Canterbury would visit both the pope and the ecuмenical patriarch in 1960. Beauduin was, as his American biographer said, “a prophet vindicated.”

    In that biography, Sonya Quitslund states: “Beauduin had an insatiable thrist for unity. At first envisaged in rather narrow lines and somewhat hesitantly, unity soon became the predominant passion of his entire life.” His commitment to liturgical renewal was part of this passion. In the liturgy, the faithful were united with one another, the congregation with the church and the church with Christ. Furthermore, Beauduin was aware that the purpose of the incarnation, death, resurrection and ascension of Christ and the descent of the Spirit was, and is, to lead humanity to the Father. Thus, unity with Christ in the liturgy serves to draw humanity closer to the one whom Christ called “Abba.” In this bosom, humanity would find its unity.

    Beauduin’s contribution to the life of the church is substantial. Several of the journals he founded still are important means of research and communication. The monastery of Chevetogne continues to witness to Beauduin’s vision of ecclesial unity. The fullness of that vision still awaits its time."
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: SSPX Pushing the Dialogue Masses (Again)
    « Reply #13 on: September 09, 2019, 05:38:13 PM »
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  • The Dialogue Mass is not and never was the custom of English speaking countries. This is all that an American has to say. We are required to know our own customs, so that we can discern change. A change like the Dialogue Mass can be a priest winging it, inventing his own thing, or a priest from another country doing it as it is done in his country, or a mix of both. We are not required to know what is done in every other country.   If we changed the customs for every priest that comes to this country it would be chaos. Americans do not need to know anything about the Dialogue Mass one way or the other.

    The Dialogue Mass is not and never was the custom of English speaking countries. This is all that an American has to say.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Pushing the Dialogue Masses (Again)
    « Reply #14 on: September 09, 2019, 06:26:38 PM »
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  • The Dialogue Mass is not and never was the custom of English speaking countries. This is all that an American has to say. We are required to know our own customs, so that we can discern change. A change like the Dialogue Mass can be a priest winging it, inventing his own thing, or a priest from another country doing it as it is done in his country, or a mix of both. We are not required to know what is done in every other country.   If we changed the customs for every priest that comes to this country it would be chaos. Americans do not need to know anything about the Dialogue Mass one way or the other.

    The Dialogue Mass is not and never was the custom of English speaking countries. This is all that an American has to say.

    More than this, it was not the custom anywhere in the world 100 years ago.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."