Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Sliding Still II (no. 643)  (Read 1321 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Matthew

  • Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 31199
  • Reputation: +27115/-494
  • Gender: Male
Eleison Comments - Sliding Still II (no. 643)
« on: November 09, 2019, 07:28:03 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Number DCXLIII (643)
    November 9, 2019
    Sliding Still – II
    Who gave to Rome the stick with which to beat us?
    How they must laugh at how they can then treat us!

    In case readers think that the August conversation reported here last week between Dom Placide of Bellaigue in France and Society of St Pius X authorities in Switzerland is insufficient to prove that the Society is still sliding away from the defence of the true Faith, here is another report leading to the same conclusion: at about the same time as the Society’s Superior General (SG) gave his re-assuring interview of September 12, he presided over the appointment of a Commission of three to go down to Rome and pick up again the theological discussions with the Conciliar Romans which ran from 2009 to 2011 with no result. And what three representatives of the Society were chosen for the discussions? None other than Bishop Fellay and Fathers Pfluger and Nély, the Society’s ruling triumvirate from 2006 to 2018, when all three were voted out of office at the elective General Chapter of July, 2018! A little background is again necessary.
    In the preceding elective General Chapter of 2006, the Society’s 40 leading priests remained faithful, less faithful than in 1994 (as Bishop Fellay once admitted) but nevertheless faithful, to Archbishop Lefebvre’s principle of Catholic common sense, that in the clash between the Society and Rome such important questions of the Faith were at stake that no merely practical agreement without a doctrinal agreement could possibly resolve the clash. Now by 2006 Bishop Fellay had himself long since ceased to take doctrine seriously. For him, like for Pope Benedict XVI, for all modernists and for the mass of the world’s inhabitants today, God’s Truth is less important than men’s unity, but he knew that inside the Society many members still followed the Archbishop in their respect for God’s Truth, and so he continued to ask Pope Benedict for doctrinal discussions to take place so that the Society and Rome could be united.
    The request was intrinsically foolish from the very start, because the doctrines of Catholic Tradition and of Vatican II can no more be united than the doctrines of 2+2=4 and 2+2=5. But both the Pope and the SG apparently hoped that the two sides could settle for 2+2= four and a half, because for both of them unity was more precious than truth. And so “doctrinal discussions” took place between four representatives on each side, from 2009 t0 2011. However, back in 2009 Bishop Fellay had still had to appoint four Society representatives who took Catholic Truth seriously, while the Romans were adamant in their attachment to the anti-truths of Vatican II, so that the discussions went nowhere. Unity failed then to prevail over Truth.
    But at the Society’s interim (non-elective) General Chapter of 2012, opinion had shifted among the Society’s 40 leading priests, so that the Archbishop’s principle of doctrine first was abandoned, and the Society officially accepted that unity should come first. However, a hard-core resistance movement of Society priests immediately arose, threatening Society unity. And so when at the elective Chapter of 2018 the 40 priests still loved the Truth enough to vote Bishop Fellay and his two Assistants out of office, the new SG picked up afterwards on the idea of doctrinal discussions with the Conciliar Romans, an idea still intrinsically foolish but always as appealing as it is to have one’s cake and eat it. Down he went to Rome, and both the Romans and the SG must still have been dreaming of four-and-a-half, so it appears that “doctrinal discussions” are back on the table.
    But whereas in 2009 Bishop Fellay had had to choose lovers of the Truth to represent the Society, the new SG seems to have chosen the very three officials of the Society who presided over the Chapter of 2012 which put unity before Truth! So who is fooling who? If the new SG is fooling himself that a non-doctrinal unity is possible, woe unto the Society, now and for the foreseeable future. If he is not fooling himself, is he acting under pressure from Rome or fellayised Menzingen, or both? It is the same thing, because Bishop Fellay did all he could to put Menzingen and the Society under Rome’s power. It is Rome that is therefore calling the shots, and rubbing the Society’s nose in the Society’s own dirt. Honourable Fr. Pagliarani, if you do not like taking responsibility for such dirt, the honourable thing to do is to resign!
    Kyrie eleison.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com


    Offline richard

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 336
    • Reputation: +227/-27
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Eleison Comments - Sliding Still II (no. 643)
    « Reply #1 on: November 09, 2019, 08:00:17 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So, when did Bp.Fellay, Fr. Pfluger, and Fr. Nely become competent  enough theologians that they can go head to head with the Roman theologians?


    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +9980/-3161
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Eleison Comments - Sliding Still II (no. 643)
    « Reply #2 on: November 09, 2019, 09:36:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So, when did Bp.Fellay, Fr. Pfluger, and Fr. Nely become competent  enough theologians that they can go head to head with the Roman theologians?

    Well, that's the kicker:

    Fr. Pagliarani found the right three people he could trust NOT to go head-to-head with Rome (or, the right three people were dictated to him?).

    These three clerics are more like diplomatic emissaries of Menzingen, tasked with finding the "right words" which will procure a deal which both sides can bring back to their own people, and present it as a no-compromise win.

    But of course, it is foreordained that the language will be conciliar ambiguity, for which the SSPX will present one interpretation to its own people (i.e., no compromise), and quite another to Rome (compromise).

    Menzingen is already quite good at this; some of its first attempts were the April 15, 2012 Doctrinal Declaration, the Motu Proprio, and the "lifting" of the "excommunications" (and now the same three persons who resisted the Letter of the Three Bishops, and defended that Doctrinal Declaration, are the same three who will give it another whirl).

    Obviously, Fr. Pagliarani did not present his desire to Rome for discussions (discussions for which he assured Rome they need not worry about any insistence from the SSPX that they convert), just so that this time they could fail again.

    This time, the anesthetized clergy and faithful will not react (i.e., the purges have been completed), and everything will move ahead smoothly.

    Perhaps another Rosary campaign to market heaven's approval?

    Then the Pachamama Pope will finally tell Bishop Fellay he really, really is a Catholic (and it will be like sunshine of Bishop Fellay's breast for 1,000 years, for which he would happily concelebrate 500 Novus Ordos with the Great Idolater...privately, of course).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Mark 79

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 9591
    • Reputation: +6262/-940
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Eleison Comments - Sliding Still II (no. 643)
    « Reply #3 on: November 09, 2019, 09:39:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • May God have mercy on us all as we approach the days of which the Blessed Mother and Scripture foretell.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2873
    • Reputation: +1893/-1750
    • Gender: Male
    • Immaculate Heart of Mary, May Your Triumph Come!
    Re: Eleison Comments - Sliding Still II (no. 643)
    « Reply #4 on: November 10, 2019, 12:09:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • If indeed doctrinal discussions round #2 are going to be resumed soon, it is wonderful news. Matthew, where do you think all the new converts to Tradition are coming from? All those are the fruits of Rome's admission (1) that the True Mass was never banned and every Priest can freely offer it (2) that Vatican II is not infallible and anyone can question it. (3) that the new Mass itself is an option no one need make use of. Those three things are concrete fruits of the doctrinal discussions round #1.

    On another note, it was just beautiful today at Mass. We had the Mass of Reparation today, a sermon on the importance and obligation of all Christians, i.e. of all the Catholic Faithful, not only Monks, Nuns and Priests, to sacrifice and make reparation by Fr. John, and then the Litany of the Saints at the end, just as Fr. Pagliarani directed. Prayer, worship and sacrifice; not a hint of alleged modernism nor laxity of any kind, but only fidelity to God, to the Church and to Tradition.

    Everyone who assisted at a chapel where reparation was made today would have seen the same. Also the errors in Rome were condemned. I think the enemy will be much displeased that so many Masses of reparation were offered, so many litanies sung, so much fasting done and so many sacrifices made! Deo Gratias!

    The resumption of doctrinal discussions is imo of great importance. I would like to see these 3 points above all being established, (1) that all nations are under strict obligation to profess Jesus Christ as King, and render public worship and service to Him (2) that explicit faith in Christ is a necessary means of salvation without which no adult is saved, and therefore all Jєωs, Muslims, pagans etc must be brought to the Catholic Faith, and to Baptism. (3) that the only true ecuмenism is the return of non-Catholic Christians to the Church. That imho would be great progress in undermining most of the errors coming from the Council. That is the work of the next decade.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.


    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3327/-1937
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Eleison Comments - Sliding Still II (no. 643)
    « Reply #5 on: November 10, 2019, 12:12:03 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Matthew, where do you think all the new converts to Tradition are coming from? 
    In France, less than 4% of Catholics go to mass. What country are you in?
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6173
    • Reputation: +3147/-2941
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Eleison Comments - Sliding Still II (no. 643)
    « Reply #6 on: November 10, 2019, 12:21:19 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • If indeed doctrinal discussions round #2 are going to be resumed soon, it is wonderful news. Matthew, where do you think all the new converts to Tradition are coming from? All those are the fruits of Rome's admission (1) that the True Mass was never banned and every Priest can freely offer it (2) that Vatican II is not infallible and anyone can question it. (3) that the new Mass itself is an option no one need make use of. Those three things are concrete fruits of the doctrinal discussions round #1.

    On another note, it was just beautiful today at Mass. We had the Mass of Reparation today, a sermon on the importance and obligation of all Christians, i.e. of all the Catholic Faithful, not only Monks, Nuns and Priests, to sacrifice and make reparation by Fr. John, and then the Litany of the Saints at the end, just as Fr. Pagliarani directed. Prayer, worship and sacrifice; not a hint of alleged modernism nor laxity of any kind, but only fidelity to God, to the Church and to Tradition.

    Everyone who assisted at a chapel where reparation was made today would have seen the same. Also the errors in Rome were condemned. I think the enemy will be much displeased that so many Masses of reparation were offered, so many litanies sung, so much fasting done and so many sacrifices made! Deo Gratias!

    The resumption of doctrinal discussions is imo of great importance. I would like to see these 3 points above all being established, (1) that all nations are under strict obligation to profess Jesus Christ as King, and render public worship and service to Him (2) that explicit faith in Christ is a necessary means of salvation without which no adult is saved, and therefore all Jєωs, Muslims, pagans etc must be brought to the Catholic Faith, and to Baptism. (3) that the only true ecuмenism is the return of non-Catholic Christians to the Church. That imho would be great progress in undermining most of the errors coming from the Council. That is the work of the next decade.

    What about the hierarchy in the conciliar church converting to Tradition? Isn't that what Archbishop Lefebvre expected, before the possibility of reconciling with them? 

    It's not the laity who controls the Church. As +ABL said, Rome is occupied by a Modernist sect. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Kazimierz

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7391
    • Reputation: +3490/-87
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Eleison Comments - Sliding Still II (no. 643)
    « Reply #7 on: November 10, 2019, 01:55:46 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Offering reparations at Mass while slowly trying to join/amalgamate/surrender to conciLIAR control?

    Madness. Sheer utter madness.
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster


    Offline MiserereMei

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 174
    • Reputation: +88/-16
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Eleison Comments - Sliding Still II (no. 643)
    « Reply #8 on: November 10, 2019, 02:17:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What about the hierarchy in the conciliar church converting to Tradition? Isn't that what Archbishop Lefebvre expected, before the possibility of reconciling with them?

    It's not the laity who controls the Church. As +ABL said, Rome is occupied by a Modernist sect.
    I agree with Meg.
    XavierSem: all new converts to Tradition are the fruit of Rome getting worse and worse, and they cannot support that hierarchy any more.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2873
    • Reputation: +1893/-1750
    • Gender: Male
    • Immaculate Heart of Mary, May Your Triumph Come!
    Re: Eleison Comments - Sliding Still II (no. 643)
    « Reply #9 on: November 10, 2019, 02:25:03 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Quote from: Meg
    What about the hierarchy in the conciliar church converting to Tradition? Isn't that what Archbishop Lefebvre expected, before the possibility of reconciling with them?
    It's something to work on. We had Bp. Salvador Lazo in the Philipiness converting to Tradition about 2 decades ago. https://www.sspxasia.com/Newsletters/2000/March-April/Autobiography.htm

    And now Bp Huonder's joint declaration with Rev. Fr. Davide Pagliarani to dedicate himself "to celebrate the traditional Mass exclusively, and to work for Tradition, the only way of renewing the Church." https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/joint-communique-47934 is a good starting step.

    If these things were so easy to do, why hasn't the Resistance done more than it already? Why hasn't the Resistance converted 100s of Conciliar Bishops to Tradition? Or at least 10? Even 1?

    It's not easy, right? It takes years, and sometimes, decades of hard work, prayer and sacrifices on the part of a lot of Traditional Catholic Bishops, Priests, Religious and Faithful for one single Bishop to convert. The good work must go on, there will be future converts. 

    If we are holy, if we are united, if we do the work we need to do, then God will grant us converts as a grace of His.

    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6173
    • Reputation: +3147/-2941
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Eleison Comments - Sliding Still II (no. 643)
    « Reply #10 on: November 10, 2019, 05:11:26 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • It's something to work on. We had Bp. Salvador Lazo in the Philipiness converting to Tradition about 2 decades ago. https://www.sspxasia.com/Newsletters/2000/March-April/Autobiography.htm

    And now Bp Huonder's joint declaration with Rev. Fr. Davide Pagliarani to dedicate himself "to celebrate the traditional Mass exclusively, and to work for Tradition, the only way of renewing the Church." https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/joint-communique-47934 is a good starting step.

    If these things were so easy to do, why hasn't the Resistance done more than it already? Why hasn't the Resistance converted 100s of Conciliar Bishops to Tradition? Or at least 10? Even 1?

    It's not easy, right? It takes years, and sometimes, decades of hard work, prayer and sacrifices on the part of a lot of Traditional Catholic Bishops, Priests, Religious and Faithful for one single Bishop to convert. The good work must go on, there will be future converts.

    If we are holy, if we are united, if we do the work we need to do, then God will grant us converts as a grace of His.

    You are the one who thinks that loads of people will be converted to Tradition as the SSPX slowly reconciles with Rome, and yet I see no sign that the SSPX wants to convert Modernist Rome.

    The SSPX doesn't seem care if Rome is Modernist and stays Modernist -  just as long as they are thought of as normal Catholics, in communion with Rome, or close to communion, and as long as the Modernists think of the SSPX as being Catholic. That's what matters.

    Bp. Huonder has said that he's there (with the SSPX) in order to work to integrate the SSPX into the Church (the conciliar church). He hasn't converted to Tradition. Not at all. The SSPX doesn't want to correct the grave heresy of Modernism, as +ABL did.

    The Resistance, as +ABL did, strives keeps the sacraments going through traditional priesthood. That's what they do. They make sure that for the future, there will be a traditional priesthood that is true to Tradition. That would be jeopardized if they were to reconcile with unconverted Modernist Rome, who cannot be trusted to allow the traditional priesthood to continue. It isn't their goal to convert loads of Novus Ordo Catholics (although Fr. Chazal does convert the Novus Ordo Catholics). But that's not generally the goal of the Resistance, as far as I can tell. For the Resistance, Truth takes precedence over unity. For the SSPX, it's the opposite - unity takes precedence over truth, as Bp. Williamson has said in the OP. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29