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Author Topic: SSPX Priest Publicly Smashes Fr. Paul Robinson's (SSPX) Book  (Read 22983 times)

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Re: SSPX Priest Publicly Smashes Fr. Paul Robinson's (SSPX) Book
« Reply #95 on: December 05, 2018, 12:04:17 PM »
Finally, Stanley, be aware that it is YOU and OTHERS who accuse Pope Pius VII of spreading heresy if you insist he meant no doctrinal obstacles. Klas and I do not accuse any Pope of the time of spreading heresy.
You may not "accuse" the pope of spreading heresy, but it is implicit in your beliefs.
In 1820 the Pope said there was no obstacle to sustaining the view that you think was infallibly defined as heresy in 1616. 

Even if you think 1820 was only about permitting books, the Pope said there was no obstacle to sustaining what you think are heretical views, even by Catholic authors.

Re: SSPX Priest Publicly Smashes Fr. Paul Robinson's (SSPX) Book
« Reply #96 on: December 05, 2018, 12:52:45 PM »
You may not "accuse" the pope of spreading heresy, but it is implicit in your beliefs.
In 1820 the Pope said there was no obstacle to sustaining the view that you think was infallibly defined as heresy in 1616.

Even if you think 1820 was only about permitting books, the Pope said there was no obstacle to sustaining what you think are heretical views, even by Catholic authors.

In the 1820 statement, Copernicanism is never referred to as a fact or thesis but only as an "opinion" (e.g., "the opinion of Copernicus," and "the Copernican opinion," cited in the first decree).  Likewise in the second decree of 1822, the heliocentric cosmology then advocated by various scientists is never referred to as a fact or thesis, but only as an "opinion" (e.g., "the common opinion of modern astronomers").  An opinion is not a fact or thesis.  It is closer to a hypothesis or a theory.  As such, the Congregation of the Index appears to be saying that, as an official institution of the Catholic Church, it is not, and will not, advocate heliocentrism as a scientific fact, but if a Catholic author (such as Stanley? ) desires to formulate arguments to the contrary he may do so (even on a tradCat site such as CathInfo), and, of course, he does so at his own risk.  As such, the permission to print Settele's book is never said to be granted on the basis that the Index recognizes heliocentrism as a fact or these, but only as the "Copernican opinion, as it is presently defended..."  since both Copernicus' and "modern astronomers'" treatment of heliocentrism is nothing more than their respective opinions, then obviously Settele's advocacy of heliocentrism cannot be considered any more than an opinion, regardless of whether he, himself, (or even Stanley) believes it to be a thesis or fact.


Re: SSPX Priest Publicly Smashes Fr. Paul Robinson's (SSPX) Book
« Reply #97 on: December 05, 2018, 01:48:04 PM »
Well, let's not leave out the last of the 3 public endorsers of  Fr. Robinson's book who show up on his website (https://therealistguide.com/endorsements ) and the book itself, namely Dennis Bonnette.  This man allows for Neanderthals as having been the descendants of Adam and Eve and places the appearance of the famous first couple at about 750,000 B.C.  As to how Adam came about he allows that God may have infused a human soul at the embryonic level into a non-human primate's embryo   Uhh, as for Eve -- well, he finds that might be a bit more problematic, but hey, whatever - que sera sera. (And no, I'm not making this up!)

Do the search yourself.  This will help to get you started if you want to know more about this third of the (terrible?) three's who make up Fr. Robinson's group of 3 big public endorsers of his work: https://strangenotions.com/the-scientific-possibility-of-adam-and-eve/

http://drbonnette.com/
(Be sure to watch that little video on the home page!)

See his book Origin of the Human Species: Third Edition (2014) on Amazon
(Be sure to read the most substantial of the reviews -- the 2 star one.)

Re: SSPX Priest Publicly Smashes Fr. Paul Robinson's (SSPX) Book
« Reply #98 on: December 05, 2018, 02:07:30 PM »
After serious study of the subject, I certainly agree with the following taken from one much more learned than myself:

"… the permission initially given to Galileo's Dialogo was later rescinded by the 1633 magisterium because it found the imprimatur was issued under false pretenses … ."

I have chosen to highlight this particular sentence as a representative sample of the evidently uncontrollable impulse to falsify evidence—or fantasize it into existence; take your pick—that is ever so characteristic of those soi-disant orthodox Catholics who have little to no respect, not only for Galileo, but for the successors of Peter and the Apostles who have taken the utmost care to use the power of the Keys, divinely entrusted to them, with seemly gravity.

Put plainly, there was no such statement in the "1633 magisterium," whatever that curious composite term may actually refer to (when one is going to prattle legalistically, the least he can do is stick to proper legal terminology). What there was was this: a draft docuмent, prepared for Galileo's formal abjuration, in which this claim was included with no evidentiary support whatsoever. When Galileo flatly refused to sign the abjuration, regardless of the consequences to himself, if this charge was retained, the Examiners deleted the wording (as they doubtless knew full well they had to).* Incidentally, Galileo also required the removal of the charge that he was not "a good Catholic." As the Examiners, unlike cassini and many other CathInfo commenters, lacked the remarkably useful ability to read minds, they conceded that point to Galileo, too.

The bottom line is this: the formal docuмent of abjuration signed by Galileo on June 22, 1633, did not include either a charge or an admission of an illicitly obtained imprimatur. The fact that someone cited as an authority by klasG4e gets this elementary fact wrong calls into question his reliability on everything else he writes about the affair.
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*Galileo's grounds were that, as he had acted in all candor by following to the letter the requirements for obtaining the imprimatur, to admit that he had employed false pretences would constitute the mortal sin of perjury. In addition, a false admission would make everyone else in the approval and printing process liable to severe criminal penalties—hence, another grave sin against justice.

Re: SSPX Priest Publicly Smashes Fr. Paul Robinson's (SSPX) Book
« Reply #99 on: December 05, 2018, 02:28:23 PM »
You may not "accuse" the pope of spreading heresy, but it is implicit in your beliefs.
In 1820 the Pope said there was no obstacle to sustaining the view that you think was infallibly defined as heresy in 1616.

Even if you think 1820 was only about permitting books, the Pope said there was no obstacle to sustaining what you think are heretical views, even by Catholic authors.

Considering the history of the Galileo case, one of the most complicated in the history of the Church, the truth is contained in the word of God, and the popes when acting officially in His name. This occurred in 1616 and again in 1633 when Pope Urban VIII ordered the following: '“Invoking, then, the most holy Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and that of His most glorious Mother Mary ever Virgin, by this our definitive sentence we say, pronounce, judge, and declare, that you, the said Galileo, on account of these things proved against you by docuмentary evidence, and which have been confessed by you as aforesaid, have rendered yourself to this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy.

Now when a pope confirms a decree issued by his predecessor invoking Jesus Christ, anyone who rejects it shares in that heresy. For a Catholic to even suggest a pope could invoke Jesus Christ to witness an error shows me a lack of faith.

Moreover, any Catholic worth their salt should know no pope can ever officially reject a dogma that a previous pope has defined.

The banning of books containing heliocentrism began in 1616. When senior churchmen began to believe the lies of Satan that the Bible's geocentrism was proven wrong they literally did not know what to do. But we also know from our Church's teaching that God will not allow a pope to define a heresy in error, nor will he allow an official abrogation or denial of that heresy. That is Church teaching and if you don't agree with it go to a Protestant forum instead.

As we demonstrated above the Church of 1616 allowed books on heliocentrism that did not claim it was a truth, merely as a means of measuring the movements of the Sky. It banned books that portrayed heliocentrism as a truth, contrary to Scripture.

By the Eighteenth century The heresy was forgotten but the ban was a huge embarrassment to churchmen. Thus when in 1741 the holy Office was asked if a book on Galileo's astronomy could be published it was allowed only after it complied with the book-ban decrees. This eased pressdure on the Church, but the philosophers kept up their protests and assertions that heliocentrism was a natural truth.

1820, and another book was looking for licence to print. Olivieri, 100% convinced heliocentrism was a proven fact, wanted to allow publication. But a Fr Anfossi stopped this and challenged Olivieri saying that in 1616 heliocentrism was defined as heresy. In answer to that Olivieri conjured up his 1616 violent heretical heliocentrism and his non-heretical non-violent heliocentrism. He managed to convince the pope to allow all heliocentric books of the time be published because their heliocentrism no longer had a violent turning Earth. The Pope believed him and allowed publication and forbid any attempt by the Anfossis to try to stop books with the new helionentrism. Throughout the 1741-1820 U-turn, no pope dared try to undermine the 1616 decree defining the heresy. That is proof of infallibility and proof that no matter the circuмstances no pope will officially contradict an irreformable decree.

But of course you are right Stanley, by allowing books to be printed it did 'infer' the 1616 decree was abrogated or ruled of no authority. But this 'inference' was not explicit, and to say it was is to accuse popes of allowing heresy. I have no doubt that when Pope Gregory in 1835, emptied the Index of all heliocentric books he did so 'without comment.' In other words, like Pope Pius VII before him, he did not say the heresy no longer exists, he offered no abrogation, a necessity to abandon any Church teaching.

Now with heliocentrism rampant in the world, it suited churchmen to allow this illusion that it was no longer a biblical heresy. It got the Church off the 'embarrassing ' hook, while safely placing that heretical violent heliocentrism 1616 decree out of sight.

In time, in spite of Einstein's pointing out the geocentrism of the Bible cannot be proven wrong, the Church was so infiltrated by Modernism that no one was bothered or interested in recalling the U-turn. It had now become a bigger 'embarrassment' that the 1616 decree if the truth got out.