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Author Topic: SSPX Priest Publicly Smashes Fr. Paul Robinson's (SSPX) Book  (Read 23006 times)

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Re: SSPX Priest Publicly Smashes Fr. Paul Robinson's (SSPX) Book
« Reply #90 on: December 04, 2018, 08:07:35 AM »
Yes Stanley, well spotted, you are perfectly correct about the seeming contradictions in Fr Roberts eight points. But upon study we find the 1820-35 decrees spoke not of any doctrinal contradiction but merely concerned the publication and reading of non heretical heliocentric books, something allowed in 1616 so as not to stop the measurements of astronomy..    

1820 Decree states: ... His Holiness has decreed that no obstacles exist for those who sustain Copernicus’ affirmation regarding the Earth’s movement in the manner in which it is affirmed today, even by Catholic authors. ...
That doesn't look like a statement only about non heretical heliocentric books, unless you are admitting that modern cosmology is not "heretical".

The text you quoted says the Pope decreed that "no obstacles exist to sustain" this.

Re: SSPX Priest Publicly Smashes Fr. Paul Robinson's (SSPX) Book
« Reply #91 on: December 04, 2018, 11:17:28 AM »
Stan, can you help us untangle/unpack/understand the following endorsement by Professor Jakub Taylor of Fr. Robinson's book given on Fr. Robinson's website?  See https://therealistguide.com/endorsements.

The endorsement -- don't you wish you had such a clear talking professor in college  -- reads as follows:

Dr. Jakub Taylor


It is not an easy task to write a short endorsement of Fr. Robinson’s book, even if - in itself – the book is not a long opus. The difficulty lies in fear which I experience together with many commentators of the works of St. Thomas: it lies in a justified anxiety that the comment will become much less comprehensible in relation to the scrutinized original. But if, despite the lack of skill, I am to fulfill my task, I should follow a simple pattern of judgment and try to respond to two fundamental questions: does the author recognize the importance of a problem he is dealing with, and does he presents an adequate remedy. In my opinion, the answers to both of these questions appear to be positive. Let me try to explain why.

Chesterton used to mock modern men by saying that “like other barbarians, they really believe the mirror”; and therefore break it, hurting themselves and others in the process. Men have not changed from the time of Chesterton, it seems that human condition reached the bottom of the gnoseological abyss: most of us do believe that the reflections of the ‘mirrors’ represent the essence of being.

Fr. Robinson would agree with this assessment, as he considers the idealistic epistemology the source of most (if not all) contemporary problems, both within the parallel and vertical dimension of human reality. A remedy he proposes is simple: return to the realist cognition and focusing upon causa finita argumentation. Pointing out these two factors proves that author possesses a good intuition and perceptive abilities, features not shared by many. Why is focusing upon modus quo rather than modus quod so important? The way we approach reality is quintessential, as it determines our every-day praxis.
This fact is nicely put into words by a Polish contemporary poet, J.M. Rymkiewicz.  In 2011, he expressed his frustration about the ongoing events by assessing the problem of the destruction of human identity, a disregard towards tradition, and the accomplishments of the past, while at the same time exaggerated, beautified ‘non-reality’ was being imposed by ‘deceivers and villains’. “Nothing is true anymore” - he writes emotively – “we have fiduciary economy, irrelevant problems presented to us as relevant, fictitious state agencies administered by a fictitious government… Even unimportant details of this ‘non-reality’ are nothing but the shards of thoughts of the un-real authorities and un-real literati, who preach to us that this ‘non-reality’ is indeed the essence of what is”.

Polish poets are not philosophers or scholars when it comes to guarding their tongues, but from time to time they manage to name the problem more accurately than others.  Rymkiewicz called this phenomenon a “Great [Cognitive] Darkening”, which is a term semantically close to what Gordon Wood called an ‘Epistemological Revolution’.

Fr. Robinson, following the great tradition of Christian Aristotelianism and thoughts of the erudite English-speaking apologists, managed to describe the very same problem taking the philosophical deductive approach. Comparing to either Rymkiewicz or Wood he did it in much more coherent and compact fashion. Not many thinkers today are capable of such a feat, as most of them shiver in fear at being considered ‘judgmental’ or they pursue the feeling of safety within the ontological realm of ‘concepts’, doing anything to avoid suspicion of being called ‘axiom-obsessed supporters of foundationalism’. Fr. Robinson knows that talking about the absoluteness of truth is not very pleasant to a modern scholar, especially when it challenges the established lie (often sugar-coated by the term ‘paradigm’), but it is – de facto – a very scholarly thing to do. In my opinion, the author of the “Guide” deserves praise for this attempt, as well as for his attachment to the aleithia-oriented philosophical tradition. The fact that he was capable to interweave his very specific (I dare even say ‘sarcastic’) sense of humor within the precise philosophical narration is even more praiseworthy and should be highly regarded by the readers.

If I were to point out the feature of the book that I regarded most highly it would be the following: within the Anglo-Saxon worldview, any epistemological discourse will often end up facing the alleged dichotomy between the realm of religion and the realm of science. It is an obvious categorical shift problem intrinsically affiliated with the Euler diagram. I was very happy to find this issue addressed in the book. I had an impression, that Fr. Robinson, unlike many of his contemporaries, was quite successful in explaining this issue.

Even if Fr. Robinson’s critique of contemporary scholarship might appear to be too harsh, one might at least hope that it will lead scientists to avoid advocacy research, and build their theorems upon the realistic basis or, at least, to encroach the realm of philosophy or theology only after an adequate theoretical preparation. It might be nothing but an expression of my enormous naivete, but I dare to assume that if this guide is to be followed by other works of this kind, there is a chance of effective propagation of realistic thinking not only among the amateur philosophers, but even among us, professional concept-making academicians. A daring think to hope indeed! And I thank Fr. Robinson for giving me this hope by writing his extraordinary book.

Jakub Taylor is a research professor in the Academy of East Asian Studies at Sungkyunkwan University, in Seoul, South Korea. [Would it be uncharitable to hope that he remain there?]


Had enough of Taylor and his endorsement?  Then you may wish to consider the other half of the terrible two's presented as endorsers of Fr. Robisnon's book on Fr. Robinson's endorsement page found at https://therealistguide.com/endorsements.

The one and only priest (a Maronite) giving an open public endorsement (quite superficial though it may be) of Fr. Robinson's book on Fr. Robinson's website (https://therealistguide.com/endorsements) has his own website which has some rather unusual stuff on it.
Fr. Joseph Azize
A sound philosopher, able to move with confidence from Plato to quantum, Fr Paul Robinson here explains, in clear terms, with illustrative examples to facilitate effective understanding, why and how it is that we can attain to knowledge, find truth, and grasp reality. With this volume, the student will be able to safely navigate through the busy halls of philosophy, seeing where and how errors arise, and how to vindicate the truth.

Fr. Joseph Azize, Ph.D (University of Sydney), Honorary Associate, Dept of Studies in Religion, University of Sydney; Adjunct Assoc. Prof. University of Notre Dame, Australia.
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Fr. Joseph Azize's website: http://www.josephazize.com/

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Here is a photo and description of Fr. Azize found at  https://www.connorcourtpublishing.com.au/Joseph-Azize_bymfg_54-0-1.html
Joseph Azize

Joseph Azize (Fr Yuhanna Azize) is a Maronite Catholic priest serving at Our Lady of Lebanon Co-Cathedral, hαɾɾιs Park, and is research officer at the Chancery (the bishop’s office). He has authored or co-authored another eight books and many academic articles, especially on religious topics. He is an honorary associate in Studies in Religion at the University of Sydney, and an adjunct Associate Professor in Theology and Ancient History at Notre Dame University, Australia.
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The same Fr. Azize who Fr. Robinson has featured on his website is the author of a book about the deceased singer John Lennon.  The following description of Fr. Azize can be seen on the Amazon webpage showing this book.  Also included is the following description of the book.

John Lennon: Harmony Out of Pain
by (Author)



John Lennon: Harmony Out of Pain was written for people who both love enough of John Lennon's music to care about its maker, and also feel that there is something deep at work within themselves, that there is something sublime to be learned about ourselves and the world. While many books have been written about Lennon, this is the first time someone has looked at Lennon from the inside.

As Joseph Azize works through the various themes in the book, he arrives at an objective look at an extremely complicated man. As John Lennon found his way towards being a Normal Man certainly one who has had an impact on the entire world and extraordinary in that manner inside he struggled like anyone else with his demons and angels and fought the good fight, just as Jacob wrestled all through the night ending up with a broken hip and a promise. John Lennon also ended up scarred and wounded, but whole.

While there are many books about John Lennon which are really just jingoism and gossip the dish and the dirt this book is about John Lennon in the light of the Gurdjieff Work. Although Lennon was probably not a student of G.I. Gurdjieff or his ideas, the course of his life until his untimely death is ripe with material for pondering his state of being during those times.

Those readers who do not know anything about the Fourth Way Gurdjieff s path in life will be amply rewarded by reading this book, and those who take a serious interest in Mr. Lennon s work will also be amply rewarded by sharing the insights of the author who truly has a genuine and heartfelt love for Lennon s music.
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About the Author
Joseph Azize is a priest in Sydney, Australia. He is active in spiritual direction, especially contemplation and vocational askesis, while also working as an academic and writer of church music. His life was transformed when he met and studied under George and Helen Adie, who had been personal pupils of G.I. Gurdjieff, and embodied the path of mysticism in daily life. Fr. Azize s other books include: How to Spot a Fraud, The Phoenician Solar Theology: An Investigation Into the Phoenician Opinion of the Sun Found in Julian's Hymn to King Helios, and George Adie: A Gurdjieff Pupil in Australia.
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If you are wondering who in the world G.I. Gurdjieff is please take a look at the Wikipedia article on him.  It is quite telling!

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gurdjieff]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gurdjieff [/b]
[/url]









Re: SSPX Priest Publicly Smashes Fr. Paul Robinson's (SSPX) Book
« Reply #92 on: December 05, 2018, 07:54:23 AM »

1820: His Holiness has decreed that no obstacles exist for those who sustain Copernicus’ affirmation regarding the Earth’s movement in the manner in which it is affirmed today, even by Catholic authors.


1822: ‘The most excellent [Holy Office] have decreed that there must be no denial, by the present or by future Masters of the Sacred Apostolic Palace, of permission to print and to publish works which treat of the mobility of the Earth and of the immobility of the sun, according to the common opinion of modern astronomers, as long as there are no other contrary indications, on the basis of the decrees of the Sacred Congregation of the Index of 1757 and of this Supreme [Holy Office] of 1820; and that those who would show themselves to be reluctant or would disobey, should be forced under punishments at the choice of [this] Sacred Congregation, with derogation of [their] claimed privileges, where necessary.’

That doesn't look like a statement only about non heretical heliocentric books, unless you are admitting that modern cosmology is not "heretical".

The text you quoted says the Pope decreed that "no obstacles exist to sustain" this.

Note above in 1820, the decree refers to 'Copernicus's affirmation regarding the Earth's movement in the manner in which it is affirmed today.' Note also the reference to the Index decree of 1757.

Now why did the decree refer to the point 'in which it is affirmed today?' Well that is because Olivieri told him the heresy of 1616 was a violent heliocentrism, and that the heliocentrism 'affirmed today' by all heliocentrists was not violent so was allowed. The Pope was also told that the heresy of 1616 still stood, so he made sure to say the heliocentrism of today.

Note then the 1757 Index decree. Do you know the circuмstances of the change in the 1757 Index. Well it all began like so;

On September 29, 1741, the Padua Inquisitor Paolo A. Ambrogi wrote to the Holy Office under Pope Benedict XIV in Rome on behalf of the Padua seminary looking for permission to publish the complete works of Galileo Galilei, including the banned Dialogue. Such, he said, was the demand for Galileo’s writings that it was prudent to reproduce them, if allowed, in the light of the Church’s correction conditions. Ambrogi said the works would be edited so as to comply with the ‘hypothesis’ rule, that is, heliocentrism as a way to study the sky but not as the possible true order of the universe.

In 1616, the Holy Office allowed certain astronomy books to be published and read if they depicted heliocentrism as a 'hypothesis,' that is as a means of figuring out the movements in the sky. What was banned was any suggestion heliocentrism was a truth and therefore a biblical truth contrary to the opinion of All the Fathers. In some cases only a little correction was necessary to receive permission to publish. In 1741 as we see above, such permission was sought for the Dialogue and eventually granted after corrections. The 1616 heresy was kept in mind during this process. Eventually the holy Office took other books off the Index but kept 5 that claimed heliocentrism was true. So, this 1741-1757 issue was about astronomical books that adhered to the 1616 decree.

So too were the decrees of 1820-22 about astronomical books. The Pope allowed their publication then because they did not contradict the heliocentric heresy decreed in 1616, or so he was assured by Olivieri and all his pals. Olivieri got away with his scam because the 1616 files had been removed from Rome by Napoleon and they only had the 1741-57 files to decide things on. And again, Pope Pius XII when he said 'no obstacles' did not mean no heretical obstacles but no astronomic obstacles to heliocentrism so allowed Canon Settele's astronomy book with its non violent heliocentrism to be published. . Finally it was Pope Gregory XVI who took the last five books off the Index, but we are told he did this 'without comment.' And again, just because a book is taken off the Index does not mean the Heresy in it has gone too.

Finally, Stanley, be aware that it is YOU and OTHERS who accuse Pope Pius VII of spreading heresy if you insist he meant no doctrinal obstacles. Klas and I do not accuse any Pope of the time of spreading heresy.



Re: SSPX Priest Publicly Smashes Fr. Paul Robinson's (SSPX) Book
« Reply #93 on: December 05, 2018, 09:58:51 AM »


Finally, Stanley, be aware that it is YOU and OTHERS who accuse Pope Pius VII of spreading heresy if you insist he meant no doctrinal obstacles. Klas and I do not accuse any Pope of the time of spreading heresy.

Amen!

Re: SSPX Priest Publicly Smashes Fr. Paul Robinson's (SSPX) Book
« Reply #94 on: December 05, 2018, 10:24:24 AM »
After serious study of the subject, I certainly agree with the following taken from one much more learned than myself:

"All in all, the fallacious arguments that Oliveieri submitted in his Summation, the Congregation of the Index was grossly ill-advised when it came time to deciding whether to grant an imprimatur to Canon Settele.  Under such duress and false information, the whole affair is tainted from start to finish.  Olivieri may have been successful in obtaining an imprimatur for Settele but this did not mean the Church's condemnation of heliocentrism had been rescinded.  Imprimaturs given to private books have no authority in overturning Congregational decrees approved by supreme pontiffs and/or facilitated by a canonical trial, as was the case in both 1616 and 1633.  In face of the fact that the permission initially given to Galileo's Dialogo was later rescinded by the 1633 magisterium because it found the imprimatur was issued under false pretenses, makes the Settele imprimatur mor of an anomaly than a precedent.  In addition Copernicus, Zuniga, Foscarini, Kepler, and Galileo remained on the Index.  Hence, the Settele affair proved only one thing, namely, that a high-placed cleric could convince his peers with pretentious scientific claims that neither he nor they could prove since the science of cosmology was still in its infancy.  As we noted in the case of Bradley versus Airy, science would not mature nearly enough to shed sufficient light on Olivieri's claims until long after he and his contemporaies had died.  And when it shed its light, it would show that Olivieri's claims were fallacious.

As for Pius Vll's role in the Settele affair, although there are various accounts that, after receiving Olivieri's report, he helped smooth the pathway for Settele to obtain the imprimatur, no docuмent exists containing a quote directly from Pius VII endorsing either Settele or heliocentrism."