Author Topic: SSPX Postures for Mass - Slow Boiling SSPXers? (Read 29159 times)

nadieimportante · « **on:** August 12, 2012, 02:49:15 PM »

My 1945 Fr. Lasance Missal has a listing of all the postures to take during the high mass, and comparing to what is done in my SSPX Chapel, there are three striking departures, overall the postures used in my chapel are skewed toward standing during the mass during the:

1) Standing during the Kyrie - the 1945 Lasance says stand, the 1962 says remain kneeling and stand at the Gloria, my SSPX Chapel stands at the Kyrie

2) Most Importantly - Standing during the Sanctus - Lasance 1945 says kneel at the Sanctus, 1962 Missal says kneel at the Sanctus, my SSPX chapel stands through the Sanctus, and kneels when it is over, sung, and once they kneel, the consecration of the bread is like 5 seconds later! No exaggeration.

Since when has the SSPX been doing this standing during the Sanctus?

2) Important - Standing at the Our Father, and kneeling again after the Agnus Dei - Lasance 1945 and 1962 say remain kneeling from the Sanctus till you rise to receive communion (if you go). My SSPX chapel stands from the Our Father till the end of the Agnus Dei. (Looks to me now like a set up for the handshake of peace in the future?).

I looked up online and found that all these posture changes used at my SSPX chapel, are in the 1965 Missal. Are we being slow boiled like our parents in 1965?

Any liturgical "analysts" out there that can educate me further?

Telesphorus · « **Reply #1 on:** August 12, 2012, 02:59:39 PM »

I recall kneeling at the Sanctus at SSPX. Did people change recently or have you just noticed this?

Domitilla · « **Reply #2 on:** August 12, 2012, 03:02:29 PM »

Thank you for pointing out the new postures being adopted by SSPX Chapels. I, too, share you concerns. I first noted the changes at the Winona Seminary in July, 2011. In the fall of 2011, I was informed that the students of LaSalette and in fact, most SSPX Schools had implemented these changes for a number of years. The Rector of the Seminary was quizzed about these changes and his response was that these new postures and dialoging (standing through the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei; the seminarians repeating the Pater Noster and Domini Non Sum Dignus with the priest) were the desire of Pope Pius XII, but that he died before they could be implemented. Interesting ...

Could the SSPX be conditioning their laity to accept the "reform of the reform"?

John Grace · « **Reply #3 on:** August 12, 2012, 03:15:31 PM »

Quote

Thank you for pointing out the new postures being adopted by SSPX Chapels. I, too, share you concerns. I first noted the changes at the Winona Seminary in July, 2011. The Rector was quizzed about these changes and his response was that these new postures and dialoging (standing through the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei; the seminarians repeating the Pater Noster and Domini Non Sum Dignus with the priest) were the desire of Pope Pius XII, but that he died before they could be implemented. Interesting ...

Could the SSPX be conditioning their laity to accept the "reform of the reform"?

I dislike the dialogue Mass. I like Low Mass. I would be concerned about this standing up and making the responses in this manner. I haven't experienced this in SSPX chapels in Ireland but observed standing in England.

I used to bring a Missal to Mass but now I don't bother.

Repeating the Pater Noster is very common at the Indult Mass in Dublin or so it used to be a few years ago. I experienced it. The congregation singing the Pater Noster was considered 'normal'. I think the priests managed to put a stop to it.

I'm quite happy for the altar boy to make the responses on our behalf.

Domitilla · « **Reply #4 on:** August 12, 2012, 03:21:25 PM »

Very sorry to have forgotten to clarify which Mass I observed these changes. We were attending a week day Low Mass at the SSPX Seminary and it was confirmed to me that the SSPX students adopted these same rubrics at their week day Low Masses.

wallflower · « **Reply #5 on:** August 12, 2012, 03:43:48 PM »

I don't think standing during the Sanctus is new in SSPX. As far back as I can remember we've stood for the Sanctus during a sung High Mass but knelt for it during the Low Mass.

During a Low Mass the Sanctus is the cue to kneel and you stay kneeling until you go up for Communion. During a sung High Mass you kneel at the end of the Sanctus and I can't remember when you get up. It's been a while since I've gone to a High Mass. When I do go I end up leaving with children so I don't make it that far. My memory is a bit fuzzier for the Our Father and Angus Dei.

The difference is that during a sung High Mass the parish is/should be singing responses to the choir or schola so they are standing. It has nothing to do with priming for the handshake.

Of course you'd have the occasional priest who would try to change something but as far as I know that is the accepted SSPX norm in the US.

Domitilla · « **Reply #6 on:** August 12, 2012, 04:02:33 PM »

Wallflower, your experience has also been my experience for many years at the SSPX Chapels; however, my husband and I noted the above changes while attending a Low Mass at the Seminary in Winona. I was told that the SSPX students had been accustomed to these changes for a period of years at their week day Masses. Hence, my concern about possibly being conditioned for the "reform of the reform".

nadieimportante · « **Reply #7 on:** August 12, 2012, 04:03:24 PM »

Quote from: Domitilla

The Rector of the Seminary was quizzed about these changes and his response was that these new postures and dialoging (standing through the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei; the seminarians repeating the Pater Noster and Domini Non Sum Dignus with the priest) were the desire of Pope Pius XII, but that he died before they could be implemented.

Pius XII's "desires"? He's been dead for like 54 years! Sounds like a lousy excuse, for changing the 1962 missal into the 1965. What kind of "traditionalists" are these teachers at the seminary? It sounds like the 1965 all over again.

John Grace · « **Reply #8 on:** August 12, 2012, 04:09:13 PM »

We ought to remember the words of Archbishop Di Noia.The goal of the wolves in Rome is to change the thinking of Traditional Catholics and destroy a Catholic Resistance. These Romans are not friends of Tradition.

Quote

“This is a new concept which we know the Traditionalists will not be able to accept immediately. Convincing them will take time, and in this respect we will have to be patient.”

nadieimportante · « **Reply #9 on:** August 12, 2012, 06:04:35 PM »

Quote from: nadieimportante

Quote from: Domitilla
The Rector of the Seminary was quizzed about these changes and his response was that these new postures and dialoging (standing through the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei; the seminarians repeating the Pater Noster and Domini Non Sum Dignus with the priest) were the desire of Pope Pius XII, but that he died before they could be implemented.

Pius XII's "desires"? He's been dead for like 54 years! Sounds like a lousy excuse, for changing the 1962 missal into the 1965. What kind of "traditionalists" are these teachers at the seminary? It sounds like the 1965 all over again.

1965 Missal has exact same posture changes as seen in my SSPX chapel, see:

http://www.coreyzelinski.8m.com/1965_Mass/

MaterDominici · « **Reply #10 on:** August 12, 2012, 06:17:10 PM »

A couple of points from talking to Matthew:

The Winona seminary, way back in 00-02, under +Williamson, had a dialog Mass once a month with the idea that seminarians should be familiar with them as there is nothing inherently wrong with this manner of participation from the congregation.

He recalls hearing that dialog Masses are much more the norm in Europe and have been for a long time. We have a sufficient number of Europeans around here who might be able to affirm or deny this.

Why is responding inherently linked to standing? I do not know, but these are differences you'd see in a dialog Low Mass.

nadieimportante · « **Reply #11 on:** August 12, 2012, 06:41:55 PM »

Quote from: MaterDominici

A couple of points from talking to Matthew:

The Winona seminary, way back in 00-02, under +Williamson, had a dialog Mass once a month with the idea that seminarians should be familiar with them as there is nothing inherently wrong with this manner of participation from the congregation.

He recalls hearing that dialog Masses are much more the norm in Europe and have been for a long time. We have a sufficient number of Europeans around here who might be able to affirm or deny this.

Why is responding inherently linked to standing? I do not know, but these are differences you'd see in a dialog Low Mass.

We are suppose to be using the 1962 missal, the postures for the 1962 missal are not being used, they are using exactly the 1965 missal, whether they are using the dialog or not. Also, if the chorus wants to stand on their heads, it matters little, since no one ever looks up there or back there to see what they are doing.

I don't think there is any link between the posture changes and the "dialoging", or the chorus postures. I think the changes are strictly following the 1965 missal.

Clint · « **Reply #12 on:** August 12, 2012, 07:21:35 PM »

As for standing, I think the excuse for it is that they want the congregation to join with the choir. Therefore, we stand to sing the Kyrie, the Sanctus, the Agnus Dei.

As for me, I consider being in the choir a job, a sacrifice, because I can't pray the mass. That is why I would not be in a choir, unless, the chapel I attended had two masses, in which case I would sing in the choir during one mass, and attend the other mass and pray without singing.

Anyhow, I agree that changing the 1962 postures to the 1965 postures is the objective, and that the "to sing standing with the choir" , is just an excuse to accomplish the objective.

I too think we are being "slow boiled" towards a "reverent" Novus Ordo.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Maria Auxiliadora · « **Reply #13 on:** August 12, 2012, 07:29:58 PM »

Quote from: nadieimportante

My 1945 Fr. Lasance Missal has a listing of all the postures to take during the high mass, and comparing to what is done in my SSPX Chapel, there are three striking departures, overall the postures used in my chapel are skewed toward standing during the mass during the:

1) Standing during the Kyrie - the 1945 Lasance says stand, the 1962 says remain kneeling and stand at the Gloria, my SSPX Chapel stands at the Kyrie

2) Most Importantly - Standing during the Sanctus - Lasance 1945 says kneel at the Sanctus, 1962 Missal says kneel at the Sanctus, my SSPX chapel stands through the Sanctus, and kneels when it is over, sung, and once they kneel, the consecration of the bread is like 5 seconds later! No exaggeration.

Since when has the SSPX been doing this standing during the Sanctus?

2) Important - Standing at the Our Father, and kneeling again after the Agnus Dei - Lasance 1945 and 1962 say remain kneeling from the Sanctus till you rise to receive communion (if you go). My SSPX chapel stands from the Our Father till the end of the Agnus Dei. (Looks to me now like a set up for the handshake of peace in the future?).

I looked up online and found that all these posture changes used at my SSPX chapel, are in the 1965 Missal. Are we being slow boiled like our parents in 1965?

Any liturgical "analysts" out there that can educate me further?

YES, you are being slow boiled. You are correct about the 1965 rubrics. I have relatives in chapels where they have been enforcing these rubrics. In Philadelphia, they make a sound to let the people know when to kneel, which is after the Sanctus and after the A.D. There is not much kneeling. Many people have left the SSPX over the rubrics. While visiting the Orlando chapel, and elderly man pushed my companion out of the pew when communion came and after bad looks. He was bothered by our not standing to the end. In Kansas City and St. Mary's I understand they had these rubrics for years. Those of you who go there will know.

The reason for these new rubrics is so that when the new 1962 missal is out you are not too unfamiliar with the rubrics and won't get worried. Bishop Fellay is preparing you to go to Rome and into the "reform of the reform".

It seems that BXVI is about to celebrate this new missal in November, when he does, pay attention to the prayers at the foot of the altar, and the Last Gospel specially.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #14 on:** August 12, 2012, 07:43:26 PM »

Quote from: Clint

As for me, I consider being in the choir a job, a sacrifice, because I can't pray the mass. That is why I would not be in a choir, unless, the chapel I attended had two masses, in which case I would sing in the choir during one mass, and attend the other mass and pray without singing.

Those are called NIFs (copyright +Williamson). Do you think the priest complains that he doesn't have any opportunity to "pray" the Mass?