Author Topic: SSPX offers Mass at St. Peters in Rome (Read 11347 times)

Matthew · « **Reply #15 on:** August 29, 2014, 03:47:05 PM »

It's quite possible this was just a token compromise.

"Hey, SSPX. You want to distinguish yourselves from Sedevacantism so bad. You want to be accepted by Rome so bad. How about this. You can say Mass in this Basilica if your priest is willing to wear a standard Novus Ordo chasuble while saying it. And you have to use red, which is the color for today's feast day on the new calendar. Deal?"

It's the proverbial grain of incense offered to Baal, or the piece of bacon offered to the Jєωιѕн youths to eat. That's what it is.

They said, "Hey frog. Hop in this pot. Ok, the water is 70 degrees, fresh from the tap. Do you care if I turn on the heat until it's 72 degrees? The frog said, "no problem! I can survive until it reaches 100 degrees!"

Sure, but the next day he'll ask for 74, then 76, then 78... you get the idea. At some point, it will cross the line from "harmless compromise" to "deny the Faith".

And getting a string of "yes"es -- each filmed, docuмented and bragged about to the whole world -- will make the next "yes" that much more unstoppable.

Are they really likely to say "no" to the 11th request, when they've answered YES to the first 10? I'm sure that 11th request won't be that much worse than the 10th...

JPaul · « **Reply #16 on:** August 29, 2014, 09:33:06 PM »

Looks like a Novus Ordo affair to me, sans twenty people concelebrating.

poche · « **Reply #17 on:** August 30, 2014, 01:20:36 AM »

Quote from: untitled

The celebrant uses a modernist ornament (is not not a gothic raditional ornament) and not uses the maniple.
There is no altar cards.
Acolytes are dressed informally and do not touch the bell.
No stock burse of the corporal nor tray of communion (the pall is used in place of this).
The Mass of the Virgin must be celebrated with white ornaments, but these are red.
Many women have no veil.

(Google translation)

He wore red because that day, August 9, was the feast of the Vigil of St Lawrence. St Lawrence was a martyr. Red is the color of martyrs.

poche · « **Reply #18 on:** August 30, 2014, 01:23:07 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

It's quite possible this was just a token compromise.

"Hey, SSPX. You want to distinguish yourselves from Sedevacantism so bad. You want to be accepted by Rome so bad. How about this. You can say Mass in this Basilica if your priest is willing to wear a standard Novus Ordo chasuble while saying it. And you have to use red, which is the color for today's feast day on the new calendar. Deal?"

It's the proverbial grain of incense offered to Baal, or the piece of bacon offered to the Jєωιѕн youths to eat. That's what it is.

They said, "Hey frog. Hop in this pot. Ok, the water is 70 degrees, fresh from the tap. Do you care if I turn on the heat until it's 72 degrees? The frog said, "no problem! I can survive until it reaches 100 degrees!"

Sure, but the next day he'll ask for 74, then 76, then 78... you get the idea. At some point, it will cross the line from "harmless compromise" to "deny the Faith".

And getting a string of "yes"es -- each filmed, docuмented and bragged about to the whole world -- will make the next "yes" that much more unstoppable.

Are they really likely to say "no" to the 11th request, when they've answered YES to the first 10? I'm sure that 11th request won't be that much worse than the 10th...

He may not have brought his own vestments with him. Or he may not have had the appropriate colors. He chose to honor the saint by wearing red.

trento · « **Reply #19 on:** August 30, 2014, 02:44:50 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

It's quite possible this was just a token compromise.

"Hey, SSPX. You want to distinguish yourselves from Sedevacantism so bad. You want to be accepted by Rome so bad. How about this. You can say Mass in this Basilica if your priest is willing to wear a standard Novus Ordo chasuble while saying it. And you have to use red, which is the color for today's feast day on the new calendar. Deal?"

It's the proverbial grain of incense offered to Baal, or the piece of bacon offered to the Jєωιѕн youths to eat. That's what it is.

They said, "Hey frog. Hop in this pot. Ok, the water is 70 degrees, fresh from the tap. Do you care if I turn on the heat until it's 72 degrees? The frog said, "no problem! I can survive until it reaches 100 degrees!"

Sure, but the next day he'll ask for 74, then 76, then 78... you get the idea. At some point, it will cross the line from "harmless compromise" to "deny the Faith".

And getting a string of "yes"es -- each filmed, docuмented and bragged about to the whole world -- will make the next "yes" that much more unstoppable.

Are they really likely to say "no" to the 11th request, when they've answered YES to the first 10? I'm sure that 11th request won't be that much worse than the 10th...

I've personally been to an SSPX mass held in a diocesan shrine. We asked for permission and got it. The shrine sacristy even prepared everything for us, including their usual Novus Ordo vestments, but we declined and said we brought everything with us. I guess it differs from place to place and the circuмstances. For instance, if this French SSPX group was prepared in advance for this Mass, I'm sure they would have brought their Mass kit along rather than used what the basilica supplied. And the servers would have been vested in cassock & surplice.

stgobnait · « **Reply #20 on:** August 30, 2014, 03:36:23 AM »

and the ladies would have had their mantilla's.. dah dah dah..... question is, does it look as if any preparation went into the mass at all, was it edifying, i don't think so.

2Vermont · « **Reply #21 on:** August 30, 2014, 06:48:34 AM »

Quote from: trento

Quote from: Matthew
It's quite possible this was just a token compromise.

"Hey, SSPX. You want to distinguish yourselves from Sedevacantism so bad. You want to be accepted by Rome so bad. How about this. You can say Mass in this Basilica if your priest is willing to wear a standard Novus Ordo chasuble while saying it. And you have to use red, which is the color for today's feast day on the new calendar. Deal?"

It's the proverbial grain of incense offered to Baal, or the piece of bacon offered to the Jєωιѕн youths to eat. That's what it is.

They said, "Hey frog. Hop in this pot. Ok, the water is 70 degrees, fresh from the tap. Do you care if I turn on the heat until it's 72 degrees? The frog said, "no problem! I can survive until it reaches 100 degrees!"

Sure, but the next day he'll ask for 74, then 76, then 78... you get the idea. At some point, it will cross the line from "harmless compromise" to "deny the Faith".

And getting a string of "yes"es -- each filmed, docuмented and bragged about to the whole world -- will make the next "yes" that much more unstoppable.

Are they really likely to say "no" to the 11th request, when they've answered YES to the first 10? I'm sure that 11th request won't be that much worse than the 10th...

I've personally been to an SSPX mass held in a diocesan shrine. We asked for permission and got it. The shrine sacristy even prepared everything for us, including their usual Novus Ordo vestments, but we declined and said we brought everything with us. I guess it differs from place to place and the circuмstances. For instance, if this French SSPX group was prepared in advance for this Mass, I'm sure they would have brought their Mass kit along rather than used what the basilica supplied. And the servers would have been vested in cassock & surplice.

And I reiterate that, based on what was reported on the SSPX site, they knew about this ahead of time.

Centroamerica · « **Reply #22 on:** August 30, 2014, 11:39:21 AM »

Quote from: poche

Quote from: Matthew
It's quite possible this was just a token compromise.

"Hey, SSPX. You want to distinguish yourselves from Sedevacantism so bad. You want to be accepted by Rome so bad. How about this. You can say Mass in this Basilica if your priest is willing to wear a standard Novus Ordo chasuble while saying it. And you have to use red, which is the color for today's feast day on the new calendar. Deal?"

It's the proverbial grain of incense offered to Baal, or the piece of bacon offered to the Jєωιѕн youths to eat. That's what it is.

They said, "Hey frog. Hop in this pot. Ok, the water is 70 degrees, fresh from the tap. Do you care if I turn on the heat until it's 72 degrees? The frog said, "no problem! I can survive until it reaches 100 degrees!"

Sure, but the next day he'll ask for 74, then 76, then 78... you get the idea. At some point, it will cross the line from "harmless compromise" to "deny the Faith".

And getting a string of "yes"es -- each filmed, docuмented and bragged about to the whole world -- will make the next "yes" that much more unstoppable.

Are they really likely to say "no" to the 11th request, when they've answered YES to the first 10? I'm sure that 11th request won't be that much worse than the 10th...

He may not have brought his own vestments with him. Or he may not have had the appropriate colors. He chose to honor the saint by wearing red.

I am inclined to avoid criticism because I don't know all the details, and now someone mentioned the lack of veils is cultural. If it is cultural then it happens in French resistance Masses also. This should be considered. We don't know all the details. However, what leads me to believe there is a deceptive element here is the parroting of the event being "unplanned" and "unprepared". Like someone else mentioned, it is a pilgrimage! A pilgrimage to Rome! The first thing you think to bring are proper vestments or at least a veil! Combine this with the fact that they had a camera crew ready and I am inclined to dismiss their defense as not trustworthy. You have a camera crew, but you can't have proper vestments. I suspect that the lack of proper vestments was intentional and those saying otherwise are being deceptive. No matter the case, it doesn't look good. Surely it crossed this priest's mind, "hey we're going to Rome, we will need to say Mass, even if only in the parking lot!". If a better excuse was offered, perhaps the vestments were lost, ruined, stolen, or simply he forgot them on accident.....but not that he improvised at the last minute to have a Mass that was unexpected. What kind of priest goes to Rome with his faithful as the only priest, and doesn't foresee that he will offer Mass. It appears very dishonest what is offered as the excuse for not having traditional vestments.

eddiearent · « **Reply #23 on:** August 30, 2014, 08:16:23 PM »

Even when the Novus Ordo presbyters simulate the 62 Missal at St. Peter's they have proper vestments. You can't tell me St. Peter's doesn't have a maniple or burse.

Skunkwurxsspx · « **Reply #24 on:** August 30, 2014, 11:39:47 PM »

This is the "not so subtle" gradualism of the Fellay-ist agenda simply taking its due course, much in the spirit of the JPII "crucifix"/abomination they had flashed about on the SSPX website at one time. Systematic desensitization, I think it's called. When blatant outrages like this cease to shock, it's as good an indicator as any that the frog is thoroughly cooked. I say good deal. Fellay and his Novus Ordo wannabes might as well just come all out of the stinking closet and stop pretending to be Catholic. They are traitors to Christ and useful idiots to their Novus Ordo puppeteers in Rome. Let us not mince words.

poche · « **Reply #25 on:** August 31, 2014, 01:02:28 AM »

Quote from: Centroamerica

Quote from: poche
Quote from: Matthew
It's quite possible this was just a token compromise.

"Hey, SSPX. You want to distinguish yourselves from Sedevacantism so bad. You want to be accepted by Rome so bad. How about this. You can say Mass in this Basilica if your priest is willing to wear a standard Novus Ordo chasuble while saying it. And you have to use red, which is the color for today's feast day on the new calendar. Deal?"

It's the proverbial grain of incense offered to Baal, or the piece of bacon offered to the Jєωιѕн youths to eat. That's what it is.

They said, "Hey frog. Hop in this pot. Ok, the water is 70 degrees, fresh from the tap. Do you care if I turn on the heat until it's 72 degrees? The frog said, "no problem! I can survive until it reaches 100 degrees!"

Sure, but the next day he'll ask for 74, then 76, then 78... you get the idea. At some point, it will cross the line from "harmless compromise" to "deny the Faith".

And getting a string of "yes"es -- each filmed, docuмented and bragged about to the whole world -- will make the next "yes" that much more unstoppable.

Are they really likely to say "no" to the 11th request, when they've answered YES to the first 10? I'm sure that 11th request won't be that much worse than the 10th...

He may not have brought his own vestments with him. Or he may not have had the appropriate colors. He chose to honor the saint by wearing red.

I am inclined to avoid criticism because I don't know all the details, and now someone mentioned the lack of veils is cultural. If it is cultural then it happens in French resistance Masses also. This should be considered. We don't know all the details. However, what leads me to believe there is a deceptive element here is the parroting of the event being "unplanned" and "unprepared". Like someone else mentioned, it is a pilgrimage! A pilgrimage to Rome! The first thing you think to bring are proper vestments or at least a veil! Combine this with the fact that they had a camera crew ready and I am inclined to dismiss their defense as not trustworthy. You have a camera crew, but you can't have proper vestments. I suspect that the lack of proper vestments was intentional and those saying otherwise are being deceptive. No matter the case, it doesn't look good. Surely it crossed this priest's mind, "hey we're going to Rome, we will need to say Mass, even if only in the parking lot!". If a better excuse was offered, perhaps the vestments were lost, ruined, stolen, or simply he forgot them on accident.....but not that he improvised at the last minute to have a Mass that was unexpected. What kind of priest goes to Rome with his faithful as the only priest, and doesn't foresee that he will offer Mass. It appears very dishonest what is offered as the excuse for not having traditional vestments.

He may have had green vestments but not the red ones. This was the Vigil of St Lawrence. They were traveling on a pilgrimage. He may not have been able to pack all the colors for every day that they would be traveling.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #26 on:** August 31, 2014, 01:20:31 AM »

Quote from: eddiearent

Even when the Novus Ordo #### simulate the 62 Missal at St. Peter's they have proper vestments.

You can't tell me St. Peter's doesn't have a maniple or burse.

You have a lot to learn, eddiearent..............

Matthew has it right. It looks like this was planned.

However, I can personally attest that as of about 6 years ago, the vestments and supplies to be found at St. Peter's Basilica available for the use of visiting priests was utterly abominable. Not only did they have nothing but everyday NovusOrdo garb (I wouldn't call them vestments), but they were RAGS, JUNK, and RIDICULOUS. Rainbow colors in tatters, with stains and threadbare, as if the "gαys" had had far too much fun with them; rug-like heavy coarse woven things that wouldn't even pass for a Mexican sarape; goofy one-stripe toga-like sheets with a hole in the middle for someone to put his head through it -- didn't they have something like that for a guillotine?

There was literally nothing of a traditional description to choose from, and the priest was left to fend for himself as best he could, with the meager chasubles that he had brought (carrying all the colors of chasubles and altar linens that you might need would take the luggage of 4 people to haul around). But he was not forbidden to bring in his own equipment, or, should I say, accoutrements? This is WAR, after all.

Had he known in advance he would have been more prepared, but he had thought, "This is St. Peter's, so they'll certainly have a nice selection of vestments and everything."

Surprise, surprise: they did not.

And the priest is well-connected in the SSPX, too, so I have no question but that the word got around. I'm sure he's not the only one who has tried to say a Traditional Mass in the Basilica in the past decade.

So let the word be known, that IF YOU WANT TO OFFER A REAL MASS IN ST PETER'S BASILICA, YOU MUST COME PREPARED WITH EVERYTHING YOU WILL NEED, just as you would, as Centroamerica here said (Surely it crossed this priest's mind, "hey we're going to Rome, we will need to say Mass, even if only in the parking lot!"), if you were to say Mass on the Street, a la Frs. Chazal & Pfeiffer in Asia 2 years ago. Maybe someone here remembers the city? They had been LOCKED OUT of the church by Fr. Couture, DS of Asia.

As Fr. Chazal said at that time, "This is war."

.

Francisco · « **Reply #27 on:** August 31, 2014, 09:46:22 AM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Exactly who was the "highest authority"? Would that be Francis? Why not mention the name?

Sounds like the late Michael Davies who used to quote highest theologians of even higher anonimity

2Vermont · « **Reply #28 on:** August 31, 2014, 09:55:44 AM »

Quote from: poche

Quote from: Centroamerica
Quote from: poche
Quote from: Matthew
It's quite possible this was just a token compromise.

"Hey, SSPX. You want to distinguish yourselves from Sedevacantism so bad. You want to be accepted by Rome so bad. How about this. You can say Mass in this Basilica if your priest is willing to wear a standard Novus Ordo chasuble while saying it. And you have to use red, which is the color for today's feast day on the new calendar. Deal?"

It's the proverbial grain of incense offered to Baal, or the piece of bacon offered to the Jєωιѕн youths to eat. That's what it is.

They said, "Hey frog. Hop in this pot. Ok, the water is 70 degrees, fresh from the tap. Do you care if I turn on the heat until it's 72 degrees? The frog said, "no problem! I can survive until it reaches 100 degrees!"

Sure, but the next day he'll ask for 74, then 76, then 78... you get the idea. At some point, it will cross the line from "harmless compromise" to "deny the Faith".

And getting a string of "yes"es -- each filmed, docuмented and bragged about to the whole world -- will make the next "yes" that much more unstoppable.

Are they really likely to say "no" to the 11th request, when they've answered YES to the first 10? I'm sure that 11th request won't be that much worse than the 10th...

He may not have brought his own vestments with him. Or he may not have had the appropriate colors. He chose to honor the saint by wearing red.

I am inclined to avoid criticism because I don't know all the details, and now someone mentioned the lack of veils is cultural. If it is cultural then it happens in French resistance Masses also. This should be considered. We don't know all the details. However, what leads me to believe there is a deceptive element here is the parroting of the event being "unplanned" and "unprepared". Like someone else mentioned, it is a pilgrimage! A pilgrimage to Rome! The first thing you think to bring are proper vestments or at least a veil! Combine this with the fact that they had a camera crew ready and I am inclined to dismiss their defense as not trustworthy. You have a camera crew, but you can't have proper vestments. I suspect that the lack of proper vestments was intentional and those saying otherwise are being deceptive. No matter the case, it doesn't look good. Surely it crossed this priest's mind, "hey we're going to Rome, we will need to say Mass, even if only in the parking lot!". If a better excuse was offered, perhaps the vestments were lost, ruined, stolen, or simply he forgot them on accident.....but not that he improvised at the last minute to have a Mass that was unexpected. What kind of priest goes to Rome with his faithful as the only priest, and doesn't foresee that he will offer Mass. It appears very dishonest what is offered as the excuse for not having traditional vestments.

He may have had green vestments but not the red ones. This was the Vigil of St Lawrence. They were traveling on a pilgrimage. He may not have been able to pack all the colors for every day that they would be traveling.

Seriously? You have had way too much practice making excuses for others.

Luker · « **Reply #29 on:** August 31, 2014, 08:19:21 PM »

Quote from: Francisco

Quote from: 2Vermont

Exactly who was the "highest authority"? Would that be Francis? Why not mention the name?

Sounds like the late Michael Davies who used to quote highest theologians of even higher anonimity