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Author Topic: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?  (Read 5266 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2019, 09:02:09 AM »
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  • That's why the Church has certain requirements for Baptism (that the child will be raised Catholic, they have 2 godparents to ensure their spiritual formation, etc.) That's why the Church forbids "stealth" baptisms: going in like a commando, baptizing Jєωιѕн or Protestant children, and getting out of there. Mission accomplished! 

    More mortal sins is never a good thing. A lower place in Hell is not a good thing. More attacks from the devil is not a good thing. More crises of conscience is not a good thing either.
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    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #46 on: May 09, 2019, 09:41:46 AM »
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  • I think perpetual engagements are a wonderful means to ensure whole-hearted commitment to one's would-be Fathers in the Priesthood. I would totally be ready to make a perpetual engagement if the time comes. +ABL mentioned once "their Father in Priesthood is me" about Priests who left. I believe there had been cases where people left soon after receiving Ordination from H.G.

    And that link of Father Peter Scott that was mentioned earlier - well, I'm not sure what's the point, as Father speaks quite strongly against those who had been Priests in the SSPX rejecting their Superiors (I think this was in Pope John Paul II's time) and going independent. And, if anything, Fr. Peter was very severe and strict, suggesting they may have committed serious sin. https://m.facebook.com/SspxAgainstTheRumors/posts/1804672902889871 It's probably because of bitter experiences like that they want to ensure fidelity earlier. Others may disagree, but I have no issue with professing not to run away after receiving Ordination.

    These two explanations are sufficiently clear: "This event marked the implementation of a new policy for the Society, requiring that any candidate for major orders be perpetually engaged within her family. The desire of the Church that her clergy be firmly planted in one of her dioceses or religious families flows from the doctrine of the Mystical Body.  The more completely we are incorporated into the Mystical Body of Christ, the more fully we participate in its life of grace. Of course, we are all incorporated at baptism, and therefore share in the life of Christ, but certainly the Church, a real society, is made up of different families, dioceses and religious congregations, which provide a place and function for each soul. Entrance into one of these families places the soul in closer contact with the life-force of the Mystical Body, realizing its dependence on the same, and directing it with the soul of the Church. For this reason the Society of St. Pius X demands that every soul she gives to the priesthood be submitted to authority, bound for life to her family and in turn bound to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Stability and integrity will be the fruits of this commitment, so needed today. Indeed, it is only by submission to authority in God’s order that we participate in His Charity, which is the true bond of perfection."

    And from Rev. Fr. Yves Le Roux' letter: "While we have been planting trees here on the property, we have also seen a much more important “planting”: four of our seminarians have just made their perpetual engagements in the Society of St. Pius X. Last weekend, these candidates for the sub-diaconate confirmed for life their attachment to the SSPX, following the new norms established at the last General Chapter. They are thus firmly planted in Holy Mother Church, through the Society. It is indeed essential for the priest to be rooted in the Church, whether through his diocese or through a religious congregation; otherwise, he would be trying to stand alone without support. Without these roots, he cannot withstand the tempest which we know to be very strong in our times. Like Our Lady and St. John, the priest stands at the foot of the cross where he receives the grace to give new life to a decaying society.  We can thus be reminded of this grace as we contemplate today Our Lady’s Sorrows in the Stabat Mater. So, let us pray in thanksgiving for our priests, engaged members, and especially for our Sisters who honor their patroness on this feast day ... In the past few months, our mission has not been limited to our own community and associated chapels. The seminary priests have also made numerous trips to SSPX schools and chapels to encourage the young men to seriously consider the priesthood, and to speak to their families about fostering the generosity so necessary for the priestly vocation. Indeed, the “harvest is great, but the laborers are few.” Nevertheless, we are encouraged by the vast field of so many Catholic families, and we trust that God will send forth from them many more workers for His harvest. The “Our Lady of Good Success” chapel in Dickinson, ND is a prime example of this faithfulness and growth of Catholic families ... Without God’s Providence, working through your generosity, this work would be an impossibility. Be assured of our remembrance of you and all of our benefactors in our evening prayers. Our doors are always open for you to visit, and we hope that many will be able to join us for the priestly and diaconate ordinations set for June 21, 2019. While you are here, be sure to stroll the grounds and enjoy the natural and enhanced beauty which are enabled by your prayers and sacrifices. With my own heartfelt thanks and the thanks of this entire community, I wish you every blessing made possible by the Crucifixion, Death, and Resurrection of Our Lord Jesus Christ."

    SSPX detractors should remember the only essential things: vocations, holiness, Catholic families, the spirit of sacrifice etc. Not finding fault with each and every decision that informed Traditional Catholic Bishops and Priests have decided to make for pursuing those ends.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.


    Offline homeschoolmom

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #47 on: May 09, 2019, 10:30:31 AM »
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  • You have noble sentiments, Xavier. May God help you root them in sound principles. 

    Offline X

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #48 on: May 09, 2019, 10:46:32 AM »
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  • You have noble sentiments, Xavier. May God help you root them in sound principles.

    It figures, that he would choose to miss the point (which was Fr. Scott explaining Archbishop Lefebvre’s reasons for the long delay in perpetual engagements, and how the new policy evinces the neo-SSPX’s rejection of the Archbishop’s policy).

    Offline X

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #49 on: May 09, 2019, 10:54:01 AM »
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  • Yeah, and they'll probably lie to the seminarians by making a big deal about this "solemn" promise and over-exaggerate how they owe fidelity and obedience to the society, for God's sake, for the Church's sake, etc.

    Fr. Cekada makes the same argument (and then some), in a rebuttal to Fr. Scott’s article.

    Note that Fr. Cekada does not call into question the evident wisdom of Archbishop Lefebvre’s long temporary engagement policy, but rather the suggestion that priests who leave the SSPX are public sinners.

    I would have to say that, though I obviously agree with Fr. Scott’s defense/explanation of the Archbishop’s policy, Fr. Cekada shreds the rest of his arguments (pointing out, among other things that, contrary to Fr. Scott’s assertions, the SSPX does not constitute a religious congregation, or even a society of apostolic life, in the canonical sense):

    http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/SSPXLegStat.pdf


    Offline pearl777

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #50 on: May 09, 2019, 10:56:03 AM »
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  • See attached screenshot (below) for Fr. Scott's explanation of the Archbishop's policy (the Facebook page cannot be copy/pasted).
    X,
    But it can be printed and saved to a .pdf (wolfishly grinning).

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #51 on: May 09, 2019, 10:58:08 AM »
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  • Quote
    Yes, Hollingsworth, we know how you feel about the Bishop Williamson's optimism. Many of us heard you the first time. And the second time. And the third time. And the fourth time. And...


     

     
    Ah, Matthew, so you and the other wordy, loquacious posters and frequent contributors to CI topics never repeat yourselves?
    Let me ask you, Matthew, do you personally hold out any hope for the resuscitation of the SSPX? Do you not, like myself, feel that the organization has exhausted its usefulness, and that its time is up?

    Offline Meg

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #52 on: May 09, 2019, 11:04:40 AM »
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  • SSPX detractors should remember the only essential things: vocations, holiness, Catholic families, the spirit of sacrifice etc. Not finding fault with each and every decision that informed Traditional Catholic Bishops and Priests have decided to make for pursuing those ends.


    What you've mentioned above aren't the only essentials, according to Archbishop Lefebvre.
    Here's a short video which will remind you of that:

    Even though the link says that the video is 'unavailable,' just click under where it says that, on the line that says "watch this video on youtube." and the video will play just fine. 


    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline homeschoolmom

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #53 on: May 09, 2019, 11:48:27 AM »
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  • Fr. Cekada makes the same argument (and then some), in a rebuttal to Fr. Scott’s article.

    Note that Fr. Cekada does not call into question the evident wisdom of Archbishop Lefebvre’s long temporary engagement policy, but rather the suggestion that priests who leave the SSPX are public sinners.

    I would have to say that, though I obviously agree with Fr. Scott’s defense/explanation of the Archbishop’s policy, Fr. Cekada shreds the rest of his arguments (pointing out, among other things that, contrary to Fr. Scott’s assertions, the SSPX does not constitute a religious congregation, or even a society of apostolic life, in the canonical sense):

    http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/SSPXLegStat.pdf

    I tend to avoid his writings and this reminded me of why. Even though I take a negative view of the SSPX's changes and sometimes it hits me emotionally, I do still prefer to read more objective sources if possible.  

    This struck me as the religious version of the SSPX marriages abuses. "Well, it's the SSPX and they are nobodies anyway, so it doesn't count."  

    Do they truly have no power to bind anyone to anything and never have?

    Fr Cekada says they never got the final ok for the union and therefore don't have the power of the Church behind them when they receive these engagement. If that is correct, could that have changed now? Perhaps this new statute is yet another backroom agreement with Rome? Rome has "authorized" the confessions, the marriages, the ordinations, and also the perpetual engagements…?

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #54 on: May 09, 2019, 12:19:19 PM »
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  • Ah, Matthew, so you and the other wordy, loquacious posters and frequent contributors to CI topics never repeat yourselves?
    Let me ask you, Matthew, do you personally hold out any hope for the resuscitation of the SSPX? Do you not, like myself, feel that the organization has exhausted its usefulness, and that its time is up?

    1. The things I repeat (the standard beliefs of Trad Catholics going back to 1970, etc.) I am proudly and openly repeating. I consider it "preaching the truth in and out of season".  As for *criticisms* which I repeat, for example what is wrong with OLMC, Pablo and Fr. Pfeiffer, A) I try not to repeat the same thing within a month or two span, B) I might "repeat myself" because it's been a year or two, for the sake of new readers and C) I'm not exempt from criticism from the hundreds of CI members. If I ever beat a dead horse, I'm sure someone will mention it! No one's ever been banned by doing so. That certainly falls within the bounds of "legitimate criticism and discussion of ideas with the owner/moderator".

    2. Regarding the SSPX. I personally believe the SSPX is extremely advanced in their new direction, and too far gone. It's not just +Fellay, or we might get lucky and have a turnaround. It's a huge percentage of the younger priests, a large chunk of the Faithful, etc. which has succuмbed to the siren song of the Modern World. Furthermore, it's almost 100% of the leadership and higher-ups. That seals the fate of the SSPX right there. Humanly speaking, barring a literal miracle, the SSPX is toast. All we can hope for is that as many priests and faithful will jump ship in the coming years. Of course, we always hope for conversions coming in from any group: the FSSP, the Novus Ordo...

    So no, I don't hold out any human hope for the SSPX as an organization. Put a fork in it, it's done.
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    Offline Mr G

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #55 on: May 09, 2019, 12:29:17 PM »
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  • I think perpetual engagements are a wonderful means to ensure whole-hearted commitment to one's would-be Fathers in the Priesthood. etc...
    So, were you critical of the former policy? Or would admit that the SSPX was wrong before and it is only now that they are right concerning perpetual engagements in the SSPX?
    "Stability and integrity will be the fruits of this commitment, so needed today. Indeed, it is only by submission to authority in God’s order that we participate in His Charity" Thus before the new policy there was no "Stability and integrity"?

     "it is only by submission to authority in God’s order that we participate in His Charity" thus before the new policy, the SSPX did not participate in His Charity"?
    This reminds me of Mr. MacFarland's statement of "I will believe whatever the current Superior General says is good, even if contradicts the previous Superior General"
    It would be better for them to bravely admit they are changing and not try to hid it or downplay it. Just say, "we made a mistake" or "we  are changing our minds", but do not say "nothing has changed" when it I obvious changes are being made. If they want to avoid being called "Liberal" or "ambiguous", then stop acting like a Liberal and talking ambiguous. The SSPX needs to stop acting like a salesman using gimmicks or a politician. 


    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #56 on: May 09, 2019, 03:56:09 PM »
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  • Matthew:
    Quote
    Regarding the SSPX. I personally believe the SSPX is extremely advanced in their new direction, and too far gone. It's not just +Fellay, or we might get lucky and have a turnaround. It's a huge percentage of the younger priests, a large chunk of the Faithful, etc. which has succuмbed to the siren song of the Modern World. Furthermore, it's almost 100% of the leadership and higher-ups. That seals the fate of the SSPX right there. Humanly speaking, barring a literal miracle, the SSPX is toast. All we can hope for is that as many priests and faithful will jump ship in the coming years. Of course, we always hope for conversions coming in from any group: the FSSP, the Novus Ordo...

    So no, I don't hold out any human hope for the SSPX as an organization. Put a fork in it, it's done.
    I'll just let these words stand on their own merit. I do not believe for a second that Matthew believes a "literal miracle" will occur, and that the Society will return to its original Lefebvrian roots.  As he says,  "Put a fork in it, it's done."  I just wish that H.E. would put a fork in it.  He doesn't seem so disposed for whatever reasons.

    Offline AlligatorDicax

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    Procession/Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #57 on: May 09, 2019, 04:01:22 PM »
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  • This might be construed as a gross exaggeration, but when reading about how these new neoSSPX jugend, ;)  I mean seminarians, are required essentially to pledge their allegiance to Das Menzigen Kirchefuhrer, I mean the neo-SSPX, ::)  I confess (mea maxima culpa), this is what first pops into my fevered mind.

    [Photo of early-20th-Century children posed before national flag (of fascism-marketed-as-socialism) omitted]

    Or in the same vein.

    My Internet-connected p.c. is too underpowered to display videos, but your embeded video wouldn't be a clip from Triumph of the Will of the torchlight procession (Sportsplatz München? ), would it?

    With straightforward modifications to that model procession, so as to feature a cross-bearer leading the neoSSPX ‘perpetually engaged’ who haven't yet been ordained to the priesthood, torches would be a fine symbol of ardent & unquestioning obedience, and provide a rousing event for Menzingen, don't you think?

    If scheduled annually for the liturgical-summer feasts of Pentecost, Corpus Christi, the Sacred Heart of Jesus, or Sts. Peter & Paul, it might even increase tourism during Switzerland's nonskiing season.

    Offline AlligatorDicax

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    Youth/Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #58 on: May 09, 2019, 06:19:38 PM »
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  • This might be construed as a gross exaggeration, but when reading about how these new neoSSPX jugend,  I mean seminarians, are required essentially to pledge their allegiance to Das Menzigen Kirchefuhrer, I mean the neo-SSPX, I confess [...], this is what first pops into my fevered mind.

    Associating at-least-nominally-traditional Catholics with organized fascists is sooo 20th-Century.  Ol' Ratz has embraced his "Emeritus" title.  So to offer itself for assimilation by modernist Rome, the neoSSPX has gotta "get with the program" of Rome's "new sheriff in town":



    ▲ Float in Carnival parade in Viareggio (It.) [*].

    Perhaps we'll soon see "Pope Francis" Bergoglio "suffer little children" like these [☭] to be featured at a papal audience in the near future:



    Young Pioneers of China at a school opening [☭].

    For CathInfo readers who might have missed it: As "Pope Francis", Bergoglio officially & openly ratted out the "Underground Church" in Red China to the quasicapitalist state's Maoist national overlords, who had persistently demanded that the Vatican force Catholics in China to attach themselves to the goverment-or-party's bogus church.  Can you say "Judas"?  It's a great irony that altho' the "Underground Church" was Novus Ordo, it had reportedly retained a great amount of traditional Catholicism.  Maybe clergy from the Roman Curia weren't keen on risking their own lives, e.g., against atheist Chinese secret police, to conduct official visitations to demand obedience or conformance to modernist norms as newly justified by the latest reïnterpretation of "The Spirit of Vatican II"?

    -------
    Note *: Katholisches [:] Magazin für Kirche und Kultur (i.e., Catholic[ism]: Magazine for Church and Culture), Feb. 27, 2017: <http://www.katholisches.info/2017/02/papa-comunista-bei-karnvalsumzug-von-viareggio-marx-lenin-mao-und-fidel-als-putten/>.  Might this German publication have gotten assistance for this particular item from fellow countryman "Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI" Ratzinger, hmmm?

    Note ☭: "Young Pioneers of China, School Opening": 618×480 version from <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Young_Pioneers_of_China,_School_Opening.jpg> (Sep. 01, 2009), via <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_movement>.

    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: Procession/Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #59 on: May 09, 2019, 09:37:17 PM »
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  • My Internet-connected p.c. is too underpowered to display videos, but your embeded video wouldn't be a clip from Triumph of the Will of the torchlight procession (Sportsplatz München? ), would it?

    With straightforward modifications to that model procession, so as to feature a cross-bearer leading the neoSSPX ‘perpetually engaged’ who haven't yet been ordained to the priesthood, torches would be a fine symbol of ardent & unquestioning obedience, and provide a rousing event for Menzingen, don't you think?

    If scheduled annually for the liturgical-summer feasts of Pentecost, Corpus Christi, the Sacred Heart of Jesus, or Sts. Peter & Paul, it might even increase tourism during Switzerland's nonskiing season.
    Nien, I mean no. (hee hee) It is the Hiking song from the movie 1984 with John Hurt and Richard Burton. Your reference to Triumph of the Will is excellent though. Fascinating in its diabolicalness.
    I must confess (good for soul!) that anything that comes from Menzingen reminds me too much of this horrid little man.....
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster