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Offline X

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SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
« on: May 08, 2019, 11:47:05 AM »
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  • Fr. Le Roux’s letter announces that SSPX seminarians will/are now making their perpetual engagements, before even having received major orders:

    https://stas.org/en/publications/newsletters/april-2019-faithful-cross-above-all-other-one-and-only-noble-tree-47238

    Trapping them early?

    More from the SSPX acknowledging the new policy:

    https://sspx.org/en/media/photos/perpetual-engagements-2019-46889

    And the rationale:

    https://stas.org/en/news-events/news/first-and-final-engagements-sspx-new-policy-priestly-ordinands-43080

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #1 on: May 08, 2019, 11:54:40 AM »
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  • Are they saying that the seminarians are perpetually engaged to the society per the new norms?

    "While we have been planting trees here on the property, we have also seen a much more important “planting”: four of our seminarians have just made their perpetual engagements in the Society of St. Pius X. Last weekend, these candidates for the sub-diaconate confirmed for life their attachment to the SSPX, following the new norms established at the last General Chapter. They are thus firmly planted in Holy Mother Church, through the Society. It is indeed essential for the priest to be rooted in the Church, whether through his diocese or through a religious congregation; otherwise, he would be trying to stand alone without support. Without these roots, he cannot withstand the tempest which we know to be very strong in our times. Like Our Lady and St. John, the priest stands at the foot of the cross where he receives the grace to give new life to a decaying society.  We can thus be reminded of this grace as we contemplate today Our Lady’s Sorrows in the Stabat Mater. So, let us pray in thanksgiving for our priests, engaged members, and especially for our Sisters who honor their patroness on this feast day."
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis


    Offline X

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #2 on: May 08, 2019, 11:58:10 AM »
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  • Are they saying that the seminarians are perpetually engaged to the society per the new norms?

    "While we have been planting trees here on the property, we have also seen a much more important “planting”: four of our seminarians have just made their perpetual engagements in the Society of St. Pius X. Last weekend, these candidates for the sub-diaconate confirmed for life their attachment to the SSPX, following the new norms established at the last General Chapter. They are thus firmly planted in Holy Mother Church, through the Society. It is indeed essential for the priest to be rooted in the Church, whether through his diocese or through a religious congregation; otherwise, he would be trying to stand alone without support. Without these roots, he cannot withstand the tempest which we know to be very strong in our times. Like Our Lady and St. John, the priest stands at the foot of the cross where he receives the grace to give new life to a decaying society.  We can thus be reminded of this grace as we contemplate today Our Lady’s Sorrows in the Stabat Mater. So, let us pray in thanksgiving for our priests, engaged members, and especially for our Sisters who honor their patroness on this feast day."

    Yes.

    Here was the original announcement, which flew under the Resistance radar:

    https://stas.org/en/news-events/news/first-and-final-engagements-sspx-new-policy-priestly-ordinands-43080

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #3 on: May 08, 2019, 12:00:32 PM »
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  • Fr. Le Roux’s letter announces that SSPX seminarians will/are now making their perpetual engagements, before even having received major orders:

    https://stas.org/en/publications/newsletters/april-2019-faithful-cross-above-all-other-one-and-only-noble-tree-47238

    Trapping them early?

    More from the SSPX acknowledging the new policy:

    https://sspx.org/en/media/photos/perpetual-engagements-2019-46889

    And the rationale:

    https://stas.org/en/news-events/news/first-and-final-engagements-sspx-new-policy-priestly-ordinands-43080

    You got to be kidding me!

    This is NOT normal operation for a pious union like the SSPX. 3 or 4 years in an organization is NOT enough to make a lifetime commitment to that particular group. They are not a religious order, so the Canons pertaining to religious orders DO NOT APPLY to the SSPX.

    Seminarians do not enter major orders until midway through their 5th year.

    In my experience, the only PERPETUAL VOWS I witnessed or heard about in the SSPX were from brothers who had made several 3-year and 7-year commitments back-to-back.

    What is this, a cult? They want them to be trapped? It's not even a religious order, it's a pious union, a "priestly society of common life without vows". There is no need to "lock in" seminarians into such a group, especially if they aren't in major Orders.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #4 on: May 08, 2019, 12:01:42 PM »
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  • Yes.

    Here was the original announcement, which flew under the Resistance radar:

    https://stas.org/en/news-events/news/first-and-final-engagements-sspx-new-policy-priestly-ordinands-43080


    To speak in defense of those in the Resistance -- there's a bit too much to keep track of these days!

    The changes, compromises, and contradictions coming out of the SSPX are coming out at a breakneck pace, an absolute torrent.
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    Offline Mr G

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #5 on: May 08, 2019, 12:14:45 PM »
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  • The SSPX gives reasons why they changed the policy now, but they do not explain why this was not done in the past (as why did not Bishop Fellay do this when he was Superior General). Apparently it was never a problem before for him or Fr. Schmitdberger or the Archbishop)

    "Entrance into one of these families places the soul in closer contact with the life-force of the Mystical Body, realizing its dependence on the same, and directing it with the soul of the Church. For this reason the Society of St. Pius X demands that every soul she gives to the priesthood be submitted to authority,[So do they admit that an SSPX priests was not submitted to an authority before this policy, if so then why expel priest for disagreeing with a change in principles and polices that came about in 2012]  with bound for life to her family and in turn bound to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church [So all the persist before this year were never bond to the Church]. Stability and integrity will be the fruits of this commitment, so needed today. Indeed, it is only by submission to authority in God’s order that we participate in His Charity, which is the true bond of perfection."

    Offline homeschoolmom

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #6 on: May 08, 2019, 12:20:30 PM »
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  • Control, control, control the priests and the people by holding the sacraments hostage. 

    I do not understand any parent who would allow this or any young man who would accept taking a perpetual engagement right out of the gate like that. This is probably one of the scariest things they've come out with. This is NOT NORMAL. One more reason to keep your sons away

    What is sick about it is that they know they have the monopoly on the traditional sacraments and truly valid priests so they are using that as leverage to force all priests and people to be loyal to them no matter what they do in the future. That's the mind of a leadership that knows it will need that leverage to accomplish its goals with as little loss as possible. It's less about preserving the priesthood and the sacraments and more about preserving the leadership's interests.

    God bless +Williamson who gives the sacraments wherever he is needed with no demands of personal loyalty and no strings attached. That is a holy example!  

    Offline homeschoolmom

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #7 on: May 08, 2019, 12:29:09 PM »
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  • The SSPX gives reasons why they changed the policy now, but they do not explain why this was not done in the past (as why did not Bishop Fellay do this when he was Superior General). Apparently it was never a problem before for him or Fr. Schmitdberger or the Archbishop)

    "Entrance into one of these families places the soul in closer contact with the life-force of the Mystical Body, realizing its dependence on the same, and directing it with the soul of the Church. For this reason the Society of St. Pius X demands that every soul she gives to the priesthood be submitted to authority,[So do they admit that an SSPX priests was not submitted to an authority before this policy, if so then why expel priest for disagreeing with a change in principles and polices that came about in 2012]  with bound for life to her family and in turn bound to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church [So all the persist before this year were never bond to the Church]. Stability and integrity will be the fruits of this commitment, so needed today. Indeed, it is only by submission to authority in God’s order that we participate in His Charity, which is the true bond of perfection."

    That whole paragraph is wordy mumbo-jumbo to me. Nothing is ever clear with them anymore. But I picked up on the word "diocese" twice. It's only one tiny step away from saying the priests have to be submitted to the SSPX which will in turn be submitted to the diocese which is necessary to be part of the Mystical Body. That's where it seems like it's going to me. It's all still based in the idea that if we are not bound to the Conciliar Church we are not bound to the Church. 


    Offline X

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #8 on: May 08, 2019, 12:37:33 PM »
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  • That whole paragraph is wordy mumbo-jumbo to me. Nothing is ever clear with them anymore. But I picked up on the word "diocese" twice. It's only one tiny step away from saying the priests have to be submitted to the SSPX which will in turn be submitted to the diocese which is necessary to be part of the Mystical Body. That's where it seems like it's going to me. It's all still based in the idea that if we are not bound to the Conciliar Church we are not bound to the Church.

    Bingo.

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #9 on: May 08, 2019, 01:10:30 PM »
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  • Quote
    What is sick about it is that they know they have the monopoly on the traditional sacraments and truly valid priests so they are using that as leverage to force all priests and people to be loyal to them no matter what they do in the future.


     
    Oh really? I certainly don’t recognize any “monopoly on the traditional sacraments”. Nor do I accept, unquestioningly, this idea of “truly valid priests.” The only leverage sspx has is that which you create in your own mind. The Society is, at most, a voluntary “pious union of priests,” and was never more than that from its very foundation.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #10 on: May 08, 2019, 01:24:56 PM »
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  •  
    Oh really? I certainly don’t recognize any “monopoly on the traditional sacraments”. Nor do I accept, unquestioningly, this idea of “truly valid priests.” The only leverage sspx has is that which you create in your own mind. The Society is, at most, a voluntary “pious union of priests,” and was never more than that from its very foundation.

    Technically you're correct, but in practice he's right.

    Once you place the SSPX in the "no go" pile, your Mass options go down by an order of magnitude.  As in, the number of priests goes from 500 to about 5.

    I'd call that a major, de-facto monopoly.

    The SSPX is the proverbial 800 lb gorilla in the Traditional world, and any amount of pretending or sour grapes isn't going to change that.

    I'm completely against the neo-SSPX, and I don't attend SSPX Masses anymore. Nevertheless, I acknowledge the truth: losing the SSPX is a HUGE loss for the world of Tradition.

    I could come up with a bunch of analogies, but to save time: just take any industry, and imagine 85% - 95% of it disappearing overnight. If every Trad group EXCEPT the SSPX disappeared instead, it would only be about 1/8 as big of a disaster for the Trad world. The SSPX is that big. (I'm not counting Indult groups in my calculation; they're already "gone" if we are talking about the SSPX being "gone"!)

    In other words, if the SSPV, CMRI, Resistance, and every Independent chapel in the country were shut down and the priests put to death, the Trad world would only suffer about 1/8th the hit we're suffering today by the SSPX becoming a non-option for Mass.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #11 on: May 08, 2019, 01:27:41 PM »
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    I certainly don’t recognize any “monopoly on the traditional sacraments”. 
    You may not recognize it, but it is reality for most people in the US.  Without the sspx, most people wouldn’t have a Latin mass within 2-3 hrs of them.  You can call it a monopoly or top Latin mass producer or just simply, the largest priestly organization.  

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #12 on: May 08, 2019, 01:28:35 PM »
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  • The fall of the SSPX is such a great loss -- that's why the Trad world has been thrown back to the Stone Age, as it were. We're even worse off than the Trad world was in the 1970's. Remember there was a small but growing 100% Traditional TAN Books back then. We don't even have that now.
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    Offline claudel

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #13 on: May 08, 2019, 02:01:33 PM »
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  • … The Society is, at most, a voluntary “pious union of priests,” and was never more than that from its very foundation.

    With respect to hollingsworth's comment, I am a little puzzled that no one has yet produced a copy of the actual text of perpetual engagement. Surely it ought to be seen and read before any full-blown attack or defense begins!

    From the admittedly less than forthcoming description provided by the SSPX documents, one might draw the inference that perpetual engagement differs little, if at all, from incardination. If such is the case, the most salient objection—perhaps indeed the only relevant one—is Matthew's: that the commitment is being demanded from someone too young to know what he is doing or, put otherwise, insufficiently advanced in discernment of his vocation. Again, until the document is read, any response amounts to punching in the dark.

    Let's assume for the moment—I repeat, absent evidence of any sort—that what the Society chooses to call perpetual engagement is indeed the rough equivalent of incardination. In such a case, surely "perpetual" ceases to be an absolute. Everything I myself know about incardination from 73 years of living as a Catholic corresponds with what the online version of the old Catholic Encyclopedia says in the article of the same name: "It must be remembered that in canon law a person belongs to a bishop in any one or more of the four following ways: by birth, by benefice, by domicile, or by service. In accordance with this the Church has always maintained the principle that excardination cannot be forced upon a person unwilling to accept it, nor at the same time can it be withheld unless there exist a just reason" (emphasis added). Of course, the encyclopedia has no inherent doctrinal authority, but if it is incorrect in this instance, I trust that someone will step forward to explain how.

    As it is a fact that long before Vatican II, priests were regularly excardinated from one diocese and incardinated in another (or were otherwise redirected or laicized), the Society's perpetual engagement would need to be something extraordinarily and unprecedentedly binding to represent the sort of dangerously unbreakable tether that some hereabouts have assumed it is. Once more, I do not discount the possibility that it is, but until documentary support for one view or another is forthcoming, no bridge from the possible to the probable, let alone the certain, can be said to have been established.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Morphing: Perpetual Engagements as Seminarians?
    « Reply #14 on: May 08, 2019, 02:43:43 PM »
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  • Quote
    the Society's perpetual engagement would need to be something extraordinarily and unprecedentedly binding to represent the sort of dangerously unbreakable tether that some hereabouts have assumed it is.
    The issue is not the "unbreakableness" of the tether, but the idea that a non-priest would have to have a tether at all, even if it could be broken in some cases.  The issue is that the neo-sspx is further grasping control over its seminarians with no apparent need.  ...Unless the neo-sspx is close to a deal and they are worried that many seminarians would jump ship?  Would not a tether keep them tied to the newly-indult, modernist-drowning ship?

     

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