Where's Tulsa's "Fr. Stan Rother"? SSPX Packs Up And Leaves.
Bye, SSPX.
Fr. Stanley Rother was beatified last Saturday. That's nice. He was a nice guy who drove a tractor and died for the community he invested himself in. Good for him.
I wrote one of the few online articles critical of his beatification earlier this year (LINK HERE).
But what about Traditional Catholicism in Tulsa? Do we have a priest who will invest his life and soul into our community?
Fr. Timothy Davidson did. Tulsa Traditional Catholics loved him. But he was shoved off to went on sabbatical to Ohio for family. His Trad friends, Fr. Ripperger and Mother Miriam were also given the boot.
What about the priest who took over for Fr. Davidson? Uhm, last I heard, he's flippantly and irreverently distributing the Eucharist in the hand to standing laity at the Novus Ordo English and Spanish Mass. The clock is ticking for the Latin Mass congregation under his...watch.
What about our new bishop? Is Bishop Konderla able to move beyond the fawning adoration of young impressionable college students and adopt a new heart for Traditional Catholicism in Tulsa? *crickets*
Well, gollee. How about the Society? They've been the main warrior in the Catholic Church's battle against modernism for decades. Can they offer refuge for Traditional Catholic Tulsans?
Nope. They pulled up the rug and left today. I suspect that several people might not be maintaining Catholicism any longer after today.
SSPX Leaves Tulsa
In a demoralizing display of "grab it and run" behavior, the priest at the Tulsa chapter of the SSPX pretty much told the laity during his homily: Sorry, we're done. Did anyone even see this coming? It just happened so suddenly. The announcement came during the homily of the Mass, so the discussion wasn't really up for debate. You don't just start objecting to something during the homily of a Mass. It's not a moment for democracy. So that was convenient for the priest. Did he stay after the Mass, or did he duck out? I'm unsure.
But what is sure is that they abruptly pulled out without preparation or warning. There is no longer SSPX Mass being said in this city.
After SSPX headquarters seemed to force the community to (with great hesitation) sell off their church building (many community members put a lot of sweat into purchasing and keeping up the building; the SSPX was like an absentee landlord), the laity was then forced to attend Mass at a downtown funeral home for the next two years. The image of a Mass in that funeral home left me wondering if either the Society was retreating to a catacombs or if it was pretty much dead and in a coffin. Read about the Society's Tulsa history HERE.
And so, as the Society priest drives off into the sunset towards Traditional Catholic Disneyland St. Mary's Kansas, not only does he take with him the last embers of any hope this city's Trads had, but he also probably takes with him unknown tens of thousands of dollars. If the district functions the way that it ought to, then the Society held the Tulsa community's money in their coffers. Now that the Society is gone, so is the money. Where did it go? Not here. Is it the Society's money now? The money received for selling the old church building? Don't worry, it'll go to supporting the Society somewhere else. But not Tulsa.
I could be wrong.
What Could Have Been
It is no secret that Bishop Konderla has no love for the Latin Mass. He is indifferent at best. His actions against diocesan Traditional Catholics show a hostility emanating from either him or the presbyteral council that he acquiesces to. The destruction of every beautiful thing Bishop Slattery tried to bring to Tulsa is evidence enough for all of this. There is only a forced respect for Bishop Konderla's predecessor.
The diocesan Latin Mass community at Sts. Peter and Paul is on the wane. The priest there is hostile to the Catholic Tradition of the parishioners under his...watch. A Hispanic priest says the TLM for now, but how long can that last?
It seemed clear to me that, once Sts. Peter and Paul went through its inevitable purging, there would be ample opportunity for the SSPX in Tulsa to attract members. The Society was well-positioned to increase its Tulsa congregation. Think about it: a wholesome and traditional underdog (SSPX Tulsa) versus a well-established modernist goliath (Bp. Konderla)? It was a perfect formula for an explosion of laity.
What a squandered opportunity.
Konderla Has TLM Tulsa Right Where He Wants Us
The Tulsa Trads are now getting quarantined into their own little places. The events of the past year have been a controlled and heavy-handed herding of people and resources.
If the Society of Saint Pius X gets regularized in Rome, the SSPX can only stay in places where it is already established with a building. Well, we don't have that in Tulsa, so that's one less thing for Bishop Konderla to worry about.
There is no Society for us to run to now. So when the diocesan TLM is rubbed out at Sts. Peter and Paul, off we go to the FSSP across the river.
I've nothing against the FSSP. I'm happy they have a building now. That's good. I've been to the Mass at Most Precious Blood, and I know some of the people. But when the new bishop came, we wondered if even the FSSP would survive his purging. And if the FSSP goes? Tulsa is full-on modernist Catholic. The Novus Ordo laity will be able to happily exist in their controlled environment with the surrounding Protestants, here in the buckle of the Bible Belt.
For now, in my opinion, it really looks like the FSSP will be the last holdout for Traditional Catholics in Tulsa five years from now.
Overall Implications
As I said earlier, I think that today, some people will not likely be engaging in Catholic practice any longer. This act will actually harden these already-hardened people even further. There have been so many abuses and scandals in the Catholic world. I'm sure the families of the community are quite bitter for this seeming betrayal--if not for the loss of their invested money.
For the people who only attended SSPX Mass, I imagine that worship life, for them, will begin to resemble life for Japanese Catholic communities that were once not allowed to have priests. They will become what are called "home aloners," who content themselves to listening to a broadcast, reading spiritual literature on Sundays, but not going to Mass. Others, perhaps, will drive to Oklahoma City every Sunday, where there is still a stable SSPX presence.
Will we hear about this in a public newspaper? Ha! Don't make me laugh. Tulsa--and the New Order Catholic World--are currently agog about the beatification of Fr. Stanley Rother. He died for those poor Guatemalans, don't you know? (President Donald Trump would never understand! WE NEED MORE IMMIGRATION! VIVA LA RAZA!) The SSPX is the odd family member who, during Thanksgiving dinner, sits at the table in the back of the house.
Foucald's chapel.
Shortly after I was converted, I read a book about Blessed Charles de Foucald. This priest wanted to be a missionary after converting to the Catholic Church. He was very excited. He became a priest and rushed out into the Sahara Desert to attempt to evangelize the local Tuaregs. Not a single person converted to Catholicism during his life out there--not even the guy who assisted him during his Masses, who remained a quiet Muslim. Fr. Foucald nevertheless ardently fought for the necessity that Catholic Mass be held out there in that wasteland. Even if no one attended his Mass, at the very least, it was there for anyone. The potential for growth was there.
So where is our Charles de Foucald? Where is our Stanley Rother? Do we have such men to advocate for our cause? Do we have someone like Fr. Rother who will help us build our Traditional Catholic community--even die for us? Or do you only get that in FrancisNewChurch? Do we only get the flashy buildings, the comfortable carpets, the Tulsa World ads and radio broadcasts if we go to Novus Ordo Mass? Must we give credence to the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖist Fr. Martin? Are we forced to "raise Hell" for Pope Francis' socialist causes if we are to remain Catholics in good standing who are worth the time? Must we become a Church of dandies and secret cocaine-fueled gαy orgies to keep our community buildings?
Tulsa Traditional Catholics now experience neglect in many places. We are an entire city of abused people, all of whom are abused in different ways. Trad Catholics are no different, sadly. No refuge for us. There is no escape--except if you give in to the "love," turn on your NPR, give a wink and a nod to your gαy neighbor, throw up your hands, take a sip of champagne, and chuckle, "Who am I to judge?"
Good bye SSPX.
| Where's Tulsa's "Fr. Stan Rother"? SSPX Packs Up And Leaves. (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/TheHirschFiles/~3/13lIQxNSBEE/wheres-tulsas-fr-stan-rother-sspx-packs.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email) Posted: 25 Sep 2017 01:07 AM PDT
Fr. Stanley Rother was beatified last Saturday. That's nice. He was a nice guy who drove a tractor and died for the community he invested himself in. Good for him. I wrote one of the few online articles critical of his beatification earlier this year (LINK HERE (http://thehirschfiles.blogspot.com/2017/06/why-francischurch-probably-loves-idea.html)). But what about Traditional Catholicism in Tulsa? Do we have a priest who will invest his life and soul into our community? Fr. Timothy Davidson did. Tulsa Traditional Catholics loved him. But he What about the priest who took over for Fr. Davidson? Uhm, last I heard, he's flippantly and irreverently distributing the Eucharist in the hand to standing laity at the Novus Ordo English and Spanish Mass. The clock is ticking for the Latin Mass congregation under his...watch. What about our new bishop? Is Bishop Konderla able to move beyond the fawning adoration of young impressionable college students and adopt a new heart for Traditional Catholicism in Tulsa? *crickets* Well, gollee. How about the Society? They've been the main warrior in the Catholic Church's battle against modernism for decades. Can they offer refuge for Traditional Catholic Tulsans? Nope. They pulled up the rug and left today. I suspect that several people might not be maintaining Catholicism any longer after today. SSPX Leaves Tulsa In a demoralizing display of "grab it and run" behavior, the priest at the Tulsa chapter of the SSPX pretty much told the laity during his homily: Sorry, we're done. Did anyone even see this coming? It just happened so suddenly. The announcement came during the homily of the Mass, so the discussion wasn't really up for debate. You don't just start objecting to something during the homily of a Mass. It's not a moment for democracy. So that was convenient for the priest. Did he stay after the Mass, or did he duck out? I'm unsure. But what is sure is that they abruptly pulled out without preparation or warning. There is no longer SSPX Mass being said in this city. [/font] (https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tL4r_b80gpI/Wci1D80edJI/AAAAAAAAEQ4/KN9iWCectxQ69pieXy-XdBVoQlAe8FEdgCLcBGAs/s320/SSPX.jpg) (https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tL4r_b80gpI/Wci1D80edJI/AAAAAAAAEQ4/KN9iWCectxQ69pieXy-XdBVoQlAe8FEdgCLcBGAs/s1600/SSPX.jpg) [font][font]After SSPX headquarters seemed to force the community to (with great hesitation) sell off their church building (many community members put a lot of sweat into purchasing and keeping up the building; the SSPX was like an absentee landlord), the laity was then forced to attend Mass at a downtown funeral home for the next two years. The image of a Mass in that funeral home left me wondering if either the Society was retreating to a catacombs or if it was pretty much dead and in a coffin. Read about the Society's Tulsa history HERE (http://okietraditionalist.blogspot.com/2017/08/society-of-st-pius-x-tulsa.html). (http://archive.is/QRr1b) And so, as the Society priest drives off into the sunset towards I could be wrong. What Could Have Been It is no secret that Bishop Konderla has no love for the Latin Mass. He is indifferent at best. His actions against diocesan Traditional Catholics show a hostility emanating from either him or the presbyteral council that he acquiesces to. The destruction of every beautiful thing Bishop Slattery tried to bring to Tulsa is evidence enough for all of this. There is only a forced respect for Bishop Konderla's predecessor. [/font][/font] (https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FOO3ktrgcrA/Wci3-CHw81I/AAAAAAAAERE/mhQAJbVrFD4qPeFauHBqy7hY5fBtC0RFQCLcBGAs/s320/Diocesan.jpg) (https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FOO3ktrgcrA/Wci3-CHw81I/AAAAAAAAERE/mhQAJbVrFD4qPeFauHBqy7hY5fBtC0RFQCLcBGAs/s1600/Diocesan.jpg) [font][font]The diocesan Latin Mass community at Sts. Peter and Paul is on the wane. The priest there is hostile to the Catholic Tradition of the parishioners under his...watch. A Hispanic priest says the TLM for now, but how long can that last? It seemed clear to me that, once Sts. Peter and Paul went through its inevitable purging, there would be ample opportunity for the SSPX in Tulsa to attract members. The Society was well-positioned to increase its Tulsa congregation. Think about it: a wholesome and traditional underdog (SSPX Tulsa) versus a well-established modernist goliath (Bp. Konderla)? It was a perfect formula for an explosion of laity. What a squandered opportunity. Konderla Has TLM Tulsa Right Where He Wants Us The Tulsa Trads are now getting quarantined into their own little places. The events of the past year have been a controlled and heavy-handed herding of people and resources. If the Society of Saint Pius X gets regularized in Rome, the SSPX can only stay in places where it is already established with a building. Well, we don't have that in Tulsa, so that's one less thing for Bishop Konderla to worry about. There is no Society for us to run to now. So when the diocesan TLM is rubbed out at Sts. Peter and Paul, off we go to the FSSP across the river. [/font][/font] (https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Jy_wYixi2EQ/Wci4TwJHWEI/AAAAAAAAERI/BwqAfjsVDEA-aO9ogvhwz_oFMhkq8ylqQCLcBGAs/s320/FSSP.jpg) (https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Jy_wYixi2EQ/Wci4TwJHWEI/AAAAAAAAERI/BwqAfjsVDEA-aO9ogvhwz_oFMhkq8ylqQCLcBGAs/s1600/FSSP.jpg) [font][font]I've nothing against the FSSP. I'm happy they have a building now. That's good. I've been to the Mass at Most Precious Blood, and I know some of the people. But when the new bishop came, we wondered if even the FSSP would survive his purging. And if the FSSP goes? Tulsa is full-on modernist Catholic. The Novus Ordo laity will be able to happily exist in their controlled environment with the surrounding Protestants, here in the buckle of the Bible Belt. For now, in my opinion, it really looks like the FSSP will be the last holdout for Traditional Catholics in Tulsa five years from now. Overall Implications As I said earlier, I think that today, some people will not likely be engaging in Catholic practice any longer. This act will actually harden these already-hardened people even further. There have been so many abuses and scandals in the Catholic world. I'm sure the families of the community are quite bitter for this seeming betrayal--if not for the loss of their invested money. For the people who only attended SSPX Mass, I imagine that worship life, for them, will begin to resemble life for Japanese Catholic communities that were once not allowed to have priests. They will become what are called "home aloners," who content themselves to listening to a broadcast, reading spiritual literature on Sundays, but not going to Mass. Others, perhaps, will drive to Oklahoma City every Sunday, where there is still a stable SSPX presence. Will we hear about this in a public newspaper? Ha! Don't make me laugh. Tulsa--and the New Order Catholic World--are currently agog about the beatification of Fr. Stanley Rother. He died for those poor Guatemalans, don't you know? (President Donald Trump would never understand! WE NEED MORE IMMIGRATION! VIVA LA RAZA!) The SSPX is the odd family member who, during Thanksgiving dinner, sits at the table in the back of the house. [/font][/font]
Shortly after I was converted, I read a book about Blessed Charles de Foucald (https://www.amazon.com/Charles-Foucauld-Jean-Jacques-Antier/dp/0898707560/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1506307053&sr=8-2&keywords=Charles+de+Foucauld). This priest wanted to be a missionary after converting to the Catholic Church. He was very excited. He became a priest and rushed out into the Sahara Desert to attempt to evangelize the local Tuaregs. Not a single person converted to Catholicism during his life out there--not even the guy who assisted him during his Masses, who remained a quiet Muslim. Fr. Foucald nevertheless ardently fought for the necessity that Catholic Mass be held out there in that wasteland. Even if no one attended his Mass, at the very least, it was there for anyone. The potential for growth was there. So where is our Charles de Foucald? Where is our Stanley Rother? Do we have such men to advocate for our cause? Do we have someone like Fr. Rother who will help us build our Traditional Catholic community--even die for us? Or do you only get that in FrancisNewChurch? Do we only get the flashy buildings, the comfortable carpets, the Tulsa World ads and radio broadcasts if we go to Novus Ordo Mass? Must we give credence to the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖist Fr. Martin? Are we forced to "raise Hell" for Pope Francis' socialist causes if we are to remain Catholics in good standing who are worth the time? Must we become a Church of dandies and secret cocaine-fueled gαy orgies to keep our community buildings? Tulsa Traditional Catholics now experience neglect in many places. We are an entire city of abused people, all of whom are abused in different ways. Trad Catholics are no different, sadly. No refuge for us. There is no escape--except if you give in to the "love," turn on your NPR, give a wink and a nod to your gαy neighbor, throw up your hands, take a sip of champagne, and chuckle, "Who am I to judge?" Good bye SSPX. [/font][/font]
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These are the things which happen in the Religion business.
For now, in my opinion, it really looks like the FSSP will be the last holdout for Traditional Catholics in Tulsa five years from now.Afterall, this was the sole objective of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei....
SSPX corporate headquarters, aided by field Marshall Wegner decided this chapel was an unprofitable franchise. A "low ROI" unit.When such organizations become profitable all things change. Never for the better.
There's also, no reason to agitate the masonic powers to be, when you've re-branded your order to be friendly :) to the world.
And besides, leaving it open would only give the remaining true traditional Catholics hope.
I thought you closed down the Hirsch Files. What gives?Spot on. Yes. It seems--to me, at least--that the Society came to Tulsa to be served. And after things were getting dim, they sold the community's building, took the money, and ran.
As for the SSPX, welcome to the club. Apparently, Tulsa wasn't providing what the SSPX wanted.
How typical of the neo-SSPX..
I'm not surprised by this at all.
It is sad to say, but most SSPX homilies nowadays do not sound much different from the homilies that FSSP or Indult priests give. When that is the case, many people do not feel the need to travel out of their way to go to or give their money to an SSPX center.
.I appreciate all the input in this thread.
There you go. You wanted "specifically CathInfo opinion" -- you got it.
.
I appreciate all the input in this thread.
I am planning some follow up posts next week on this. I've been thinking a lot about this.
What kind of responsibility, do you think, falls upon the laity in a parish or congregation of the Society? If you want a parish life, you need a lot of individual participation. But I wonder something: Is it possible that people worship parish life? Is it possible that laity can end up making an idol of a churchy community lifestyle?
What do you suppose God had in mind when it comes to laity responsibility?
We, the laity, are an integral part of the Church militant.All quite true. Most of the remaining Traditional Catholics have been drawn in by one organization or another and now, for the most part, identify their religious and prayer life with these entities. They invest not just their donations but themselves in a particular chapel, cleric, or group thereof, and when there is a disruption of some type, they are left foundering for having abandoned any other religious remedy or choices over time.
It is our duty, to try our best, to keep the Sacraments, especially the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, going as long as possible.
We do not compromise with error, but carry-on as long as we can.
With the infiltration of the traditional orders, it pretty much means a catacomb patch-work of independent chapels and priests.
How many times does Our Lord remind us, the we will be rewarded if we persevere against all the adversity thrown at us?
I have a distinctly different take.I watched this entire video and would love to email the Father; asking him for the prayers he suggested if we email him. Does anyone know how to obtain his email?
The FSSP homilies are superior to the current SSPX luke-warm pablum, spoken from their pulpits.
Check the sermon and lectures from Sensus Fidelium, which are "cutting edge" compared to what we hear from the Society.
Here's one example: The 6th Generation (https://youtu.be/27dWrv_jM64)
Folks, the SSPX's salt has lost it's savor.
Father Wegner, you can pull-out of Tulsa, Los Gatos and St. Mary's Kansas.... just don't take the traditional Catholic's hard earned money and real-estate assets as you go. :farmer:
I have a distinctly different take.
The FSSP homilies are superior to the current SSPX luke-warm pablum, spoken from their pulpits.
Folks, the SSPX's salt has lost it's savor.
Father Wegner, you can pull-out of Tulsa, Los Gatos and St. Mary's Kansas.... just don't take the traditional Catholic's hard earned money and real-estate assets as you go. :farmer:
Stubborn... "without considering why would our Lord take away their priests and Mass and sacraments. Might I suggest the possibility that the people took what little they had for granted so God took it away from them? That happens sometimes. Heck, it happened all over the world 50 years ago - no?"I have often wondered why God took away the Mass and Sacraments when He allowed VII to take over our Churches, but watching the video here it seems it was THAT generation was the reason.
I have often wondered why God took away the Mass and Sacraments when He allowed VII to take over our Churches, but watching the video here it seems it was THAT generation was the reason.God never took away the Mass and Sacraments. Man abandoned God and refused to give to him their love and offer him their worship.
We didn't deserve God's gifts, no one cried out about what that generation was doing, we just sat and laughed at them, and said to ourselves, thank God we are not like them. (type of thinking)
I have no idea about this "leaving of Tulsa" and why it happened since I am not involved. Could it be the same type of thinking from that congregation there, that they were too Proud thinking themselves better than others?
I think it is time for all of us to examine our conscience. This happening is very frightening to me because it could happen to any of us, our parish or congregation.
God never took away the Mass and Sacraments. Man abandoned God and refused to give to him their love and offer him their worship.And I would add, Man refused to fight for the return of the Mass and more importantly, the sound doctrine of Christ which is the map to Salvation. Relatively speaking they let it be taken away and did not love enough to hold it fast.
And I would add, Man refused to fight for the return of the Mass and more importantly, the sound doctrine of Christ which is the map to Salvation. Relatively speaking they let it be taken away and did not love enough to hold it fast.Yes, they took it for granted is what I am suggesting - which would explain why they don't have it any longer in Tulsa. The jist is, whatever can be said about the SSPX, the people must at least be as much to blame.
God never took away the Mass and Sacraments. Man abandoned God and refused to give to him their love and offer him their worship.Right! I said He ALLOWED It to happen.
Right! I said He ALLOWED It to happen.God has never forced us to love Him.
Has anyone tried to follow up with District to find out why they left Tulsa and what happened to the $$ from the property sale? How many attended Mass there?Okie Trad has some details.
Okie Trad has some details.People continue to make excuse for the shrinking coverage. They say the Society is growing in the USA, if this is true why the closing chapels? Lets face it, The old grey mare ain't what she use to be. If they are leaving for whatever reason all or most of that money should be returned, as a matter of justice and honor.
http://okietraditionalist.blogspot.com/2017/09/sspx-tulsa-is-officially-closed.html
Okie Trad has some details.Your post is removed, Laramie. What did you say?
http://okietraditionalist.blogspot.com/2017/09/sspx-tulsa-is-officially-closed.html
Your post is removed, Laramie. What did you say?Wait...what?
I have to wonder if the future of tradition will consist in mainly independent chapels. Especially if the SSPX reconciles with Modernist Rome.The present and the future of tradition already do consist in independent chapels.
The present and the future of tradition already do consist in independent chapels.And yet quite a few trads still attend SSPX chapels.
And yet quite a few trads still attend SSPX chapels.
Instead of separating with the compromisers, those individuals wil receive SSPX Sacraments, as well as their indoctrination and interpretation of the world situation and Crisis in the Church.
And when Msgr Fellay is in good stead with Francis, there is no Crisis in the Church.
Better they should step outside the Chapel during the sermon, rather than be infected with the SSPX's take on reality.
I live in the largest city in the Pacific Northwest, and there are no independent or Resistance chapels anywhere around here, except for sedevacantist chapels.So where's your problem?
So where's your problem?
Not sure anymore of population centers around there, but I assume you live in Seattle or Portland. It's a drive, but there is Saint Mary's in Tacoma. I'd much rather go there than to anything else you're looking at.
Surely you know what the problem is.No. Actually I don't know what your problem is unless it be that you refuse communion with Catholics.
No. Actually I don't know what your problem is unless it be that you refuse communion with Catholics.:jester:
:jester:You truly prove my point.
Just one of the many obvious reasons why I believe that most Sedes are nuts.
You truly prove my point.She's a nutmeg!
She's a nutmeg!
Of course, it's been a long time since I remember hearing an SSPX sermon on the necessity of avoiding the NO / Indult or the necessity of adhering to our Sunday obligation.I thought you attended St. Joseph's in Michigan from what I remember . . . When I was at St. Margaret Mary in Grand Rapids, we heard about avoiding the NO/Indult on a nearly WEEKLY basis from Fr. Webber. He constantly spoke out against the NO establishment. Fr. Boyle, who was the prior at St. Joseph's (as I'm sure you are aware) sent out an email to all the young adults to discourage them from attending a Mass put on by Juventutem Michigan specifically because it was an Indult, and that we can't support that kind of things, but to feel free to meet up with the members after Mass. I'm just surprised that it's been a long time since you've heard a sermon on that topic, when I attend the other two SSPX chapels in Michigan, and hear it very regularly.