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Author Topic: SSPX Leaves Tulsa / I want specifically Cathinfo opinion  (Read 7852 times)

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Offline LaramieHirsch

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SSPX Leaves Tulsa / I want specifically Cathinfo opinion
« on: September 26, 2017, 05:30:27 AM »
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  • I don't know if this is the right forum anymore to share this kind of news.  I suppose it'd have been more shareable at other forums I've been banned from, as this place is more Recognize and Resist and whatnot.  

    But honestly, this is my first personal exposure to SSPX hijinks.  I am always lagging in these matters, and seem to be 5-10 years behind.  The education is slow-going, I suppose.  

    In any event, I would like any insight folks here might have to share.  Please hold off on any snobbish shadenfreude or ridicule.  I have a feeling you folks have some experience with this kind of thing.  

    So, here's what I wrote yesterday.  Has anyone here had any experience or thoughts on something like this?


    http://thehirschfiles.blogspot.com/2017/09/wheres-tulsas-fr-stan-rother-sspx-packs.html



    Quote
    Where's Tulsa's "Fr. Stan Rother"? SSPX Packs Up And Leaves.

    Bye, SSPX.
    Fr. Stanley Rother was beatified last Saturday.  That's nice.  He was a nice guy who drove a tractor and died for the community he invested himself in.  Good for him. 

    I wrote one of the few online articles critical of his beatification earlier this year (LINK HERE).   

    But what about Traditional Catholicism in Tulsa?  Do we have a priest who will invest his life and soul into our community?

    Fr. Timothy Davidson did.  Tulsa Traditional Catholics loved him.  But he was shoved off to went on sabbatical to Ohio for family.  His Trad friends, Fr. Ripperger and Mother Miriam were also given the boot. 

    What about the priest who took over for Fr. Davidson?  Uhm, last I heard, he's flippantly and irreverently distributing the Eucharist in the hand to standing laity at the Novus Ordo English and Spanish Mass.  The clock is ticking for the Latin Mass congregation under his...watch. 

    What about our new bishop?  Is Bishop Konderla able to move beyond the fawning adoration of young impressionable college students and adopt a new heart for Traditional Catholicism in Tulsa?  *crickets*   

    Well, gollee.  How about the Society?  They've been the main warrior in the Catholic Church's battle against modernism for decades.  Can they offer refuge for Traditional Catholic Tulsans? 

    Nope.  They pulled up the rug and left today.  I suspect that several people might not be maintaining Catholicism any longer after today.    


    SSPX Leaves Tulsa

    In a demoralizing display of "grab it and run" behavior, the priest at the Tulsa chapter of the SSPX pretty much told the laity during his homily: Sorry, we're done.  Did anyone even see this coming?  It just happened so suddenly.  The announcement came during the homily of the Mass, so the discussion wasn't really up for debate.  You don't just start objecting to something during the homily of a Mass.  It's not a moment for democracy.  So that was convenient for the priest.  Did he stay after the Mass, or did he duck out?  I'm unsure.    

    But what is sure is that they abruptly pulled out without preparation or warning.  There is no longer SSPX Mass being said in this city.  


    After SSPX headquarters seemed to force the community to (with great hesitation) sell off their church building (many community members put a lot of sweat into purchasing and keeping up the building; the SSPX was like an absentee landlord), the laity was then forced to attend Mass at a downtown funeral home for the next two years.  The image of a Mass in that funeral home left me wondering if either the Society was retreating to a catacombs or if it was pretty much dead and in a coffin.  Read about the Society's Tulsa history HERE.   

    And so, as the Society priest drives off into the sunset towards Traditional Catholic Disneyland St. Mary's Kansas, not only does he take with him the last embers of any hope this city's Trads had, but he also probably takes with him unknown tens of thousands of dollars.  If the district functions the way that it ought to, then the Society held the Tulsa community's money in their coffers.  Now that the Society is gone, so is the money.  Where did it go?  Not here.  Is it the Society's money now?  The money received for selling the old church building?  Don't worry, it'll go to supporting the Society somewhere else.  But not Tulsa. 

    I could be wrong.


    What Could Have Been

    It is no secret that Bishop Konderla has no love for the Latin Mass.  He is indifferent at best.  His actions against diocesan Traditional Catholics show a hostility emanating from either him or the presbyteral council that he acquiesces to.  The destruction of every beautiful thing Bishop Slattery tried to bring to Tulsa is evidence enough for all of this.  There is only a forced respect for Bishop Konderla's predecessor.


    The diocesan Latin Mass community at Sts. Peter and Paul is on the wane.  The priest there is hostile to the Catholic Tradition of the parishioners under his...watch.  A Hispanic priest says the TLM for now, but how long can that last? 

    It seemed clear to me that, once Sts. Peter and Paul went through its inevitable purging, there would be ample opportunity for the SSPX in Tulsa to attract members.  The Society was well-positioned to increase its Tulsa congregation.  Think about it: a wholesome and traditional underdog (SSPX Tulsa) versus a well-established modernist goliath (Bp. Konderla)?  It was a perfect formula for an explosion of laity. 

    What a squandered opportunity. 


    Konderla Has TLM Tulsa Right Where He Wants Us

    The Tulsa Trads are now getting quarantined into their own little places.  The events of the past year have been a controlled and heavy-handed herding of people and resources. 

    If the Society of Saint Pius X gets regularized in Rome, the SSPX can only stay in places where it is already established with a building.  Well, we don't have that in Tulsa, so that's one less thing for Bishop Konderla to worry about. 

    There is no Society for us to run to now.  So when the diocesan TLM is rubbed out at Sts. Peter and Paul, off we go to the FSSP across the river. 


    I've nothing against the FSSP.  I'm happy they have a building now.  That's good.  I've been to the Mass at Most Precious Blood, and I know some of the people.  But when the new bishop came, we wondered if even the FSSP would survive his purging.  And if the FSSP goes?  Tulsa is full-on modernist Catholic.  The Novus Ordo laity will be able to happily exist in their controlled environment with the surrounding Protestants, here in the buckle of the Bible Belt.   

    For now, in my opinion, it really looks like the FSSP will be the last holdout for Traditional Catholics in Tulsa five years from now. 


    Overall Implications

    As I said earlier, I think that today, some people will not likely be engaging in Catholic practice any longer.  This act will actually harden these already-hardened people even further.  There have been so many abuses and scandals in the Catholic world.  I'm sure the families of the community are quite bitter for this seeming betrayal--if not for the loss of their invested money.   

    For the people who only attended SSPX Mass, I imagine that worship life, for them, will begin to resemble life for Japanese Catholic communities that were once not allowed to have priests.  They will become what are called "home aloners," who content themselves to listening to a broadcast, reading spiritual literature on Sundays, but not going to Mass.  Others, perhaps, will drive to Oklahoma City every Sunday, where there is still a stable SSPX presence.

    Will we hear about this in a public newspaper?  Ha!  Don't make me laugh.  Tulsa--and the New Order Catholic World--are currently agog about the beatification of Fr. Stanley Rother.  He died for those poor Guatemalans, don't you know?  (President Donald Trump would never understand!  WE NEED MORE IMMIGRATION!  VIVA LA RAZA!)  The SSPX is the odd family member who, during Thanksgiving dinner, sits at the table in the back of the house. 


    Foucald's chapel.
    Shortly after I was converted, I read a book about Blessed Charles de Foucald.  This priest wanted to be a missionary after converting to the Catholic Church.  He was very excited.  He became a priest and rushed out into the Sahara Desert to attempt to evangelize the local Tuaregs.  Not a single person converted to Catholicism during his life out there--not even the guy who assisted him during his Masses, who remained a quiet Muslim.  Fr. Foucald nevertheless ardently fought for the necessity that Catholic Mass be held out there in that wasteland.  Even if no one attended his Mass, at the very least, it was there for anyone.  The potential for growth was there. 

    So where is our Charles de Foucald?  Where is our Stanley Rother?  Do we have such men to advocate for our cause?  Do we have someone like Fr. Rother who will help us build our Traditional Catholic community--even die for us?  Or do you only get that in FrancisNewChurch?  Do we only get the flashy buildings, the comfortable carpets, the Tulsa World ads and radio broadcasts if we go to Novus Ordo Mass?  Must we give credence to the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖist Fr. Martin?  Are we forced to "raise Hell" for Pope Francis' socialist causes if we are to remain Catholics in good standing who are worth the time?  Must we become a Church of dandies and secret cocaine-fueled gαy orgies to keep our community buildings?     

    Tulsa Traditional Catholics now experience neglect in many places.  We are an entire city of abused people, all of whom are abused in different ways.  Trad Catholics are no different, sadly.  No refuge for us.  There is no escape--except if you give in to the "love," turn on your NPR, give a wink and a nod to your gαy neighbor, throw up your hands, take a sip of champagne, and chuckle, "Who am I to judge?" 

    Good bye SSPX.

    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: SSPX Leaves Tulsa / I want specifically Cathinfo opinion
    « Reply #1 on: September 26, 2017, 07:16:39 AM »
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  • No doubt, Oklahoma's grand masonic lodge wants the Tridentine Latin Mass out of the state.



    But if the SSPX capitulated to the ʝʊdɛօ-masonics... pulled-up stakes and left, what does it say it say about them?

    Even the FSSP made the "good fight", until their newChurch compromises forced them to retreat.







    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: SSPX Leaves Tulsa / I want specifically Cathinfo opinion
    « Reply #2 on: September 26, 2017, 07:19:20 AM »
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  • With photos! :cowboy:


    Where's Tulsa's "Fr. Stan Rother"? SSPX Packs Up And Leaves.
    Posted: 25 Sep 2017 01:07 AM PDT
    Bye, SSPX.
    [font]
    Fr. Stanley Rother was beatified last Saturday.  That's nice.  He was a nice guy who drove a tractor and died for the community he invested himself in.  Good for him. 

    I wrote one of the few online articles critical of his beatification earlier this year (LINK HERE).   

    But what about Traditional Catholicism in Tulsa?  Do we have a priest who will invest his life and soul into our community?

    Fr. Timothy Davidson did.  Tulsa Traditional Catholics loved him.  But he was shoved off to went on sabbatical to Ohio for family.  His Trad friends, Fr. Ripperger and Mother Miriam were also given the boot. 

    What about the priest who took over for Fr. Davidson?  Uhm, last I heard, he's flippantly and irreverently distributing the Eucharist in the hand to standing laity at the Novus Ordo English and Spanish Mass.  The clock is ticking for the Latin Mass congregation under his...watch. 

    What about our new bishop?  Is Bishop Konderla able to move beyond the fawning adoration of young impressionable college students and adopt a new heart for Traditional Catholicism in Tulsa?  *crickets*   

    Well, gollee.  How about the Society?  They've been the main warrior in the Catholic Church's battle against modernism for decades.  Can they offer refuge for Traditional Catholic Tulsans? 

    Nope.  They pulled up the rug and left today.  I suspect that several people might not be maintaining Catholicism any longer after today.    


    SSPX Leaves Tulsa

    In a demoralizing display of "grab it and run" behavior, the priest at the Tulsa chapter of the SSPX pretty much told the laity during his homily: Sorry, we're done.  Did anyone even see this coming?  It just happened so suddenly.  The announcement came during the homily of the Mass, so the discussion wasn't really up for debate.  You don't just start objecting to something during the homily of a Mass.  It's not a moment for democracy.  So that was convenient for the priest.  Did he stay after the Mass, or did he duck out?  I'm unsure.    

    But what is sure is that they abruptly pulled out without preparation or warning.  There is no longer SSPX Mass being said in this city.  

    [/font]
    [font][font]
    After SSPX headquarters seemed to force the community to (with great hesitation) sell off their church building (many community members put a lot of sweat into purchasing and keeping up the building; the SSPX was like an absentee landlord), the laity was then forced to attend Mass at a downtown funeral home for the next two years.  The image of a Mass in that funeral home left me wondering if either the Society was retreating to a catacombs or if it was pretty much dead and in a coffin.  Read about the Society's Tulsa history HERE.   

    And so, as the Society priest drives off into the sunset towards Traditional Catholic Disneyland St. Mary's Kansas, not only does he take with him the last embers of any hope this city's Trads had, but he also probably takes with him unknown tens of thousands of dollars.  If the district functions the way that it ought to, then the Society held the Tulsa community's money in their coffers.  Now that the Society is gone, so is the money.  Where did it go?  Not here.  Is it the Society's money now?  The money received for selling the old church building?  Don't worry, it'll go to supporting the Society somewhere else.  But not Tulsa. 

    I could be wrong.


    What Could Have Been

    It is no secret that Bishop Konderla has no love for the Latin Mass.  He is indifferent at best.  His actions against diocesan Traditional Catholics show a hostility emanating from either him or the presbyteral council that he acquiesces to.  The destruction of every beautiful thing Bishop Slattery tried to bring to Tulsa is evidence enough for all of this.  There is only a forced respect for Bishop Konderla's predecessor.


    [/font][/font]
    [font][font]
    The diocesan Latin Mass community at Sts. Peter and Paul is on the wane.  The priest there is hostile to the Catholic Tradition of the parishioners under his...watch.  A Hispanic priest says the TLM for now, but how long can that last? 

    It seemed clear to me that, once Sts. Peter and Paul went through its inevitable purging, there would be ample opportunity for the SSPX in Tulsa to attract members.  The Society was well-positioned to increase its Tulsa congregation.  Think about it: a wholesome and traditional underdog (SSPX Tulsa) versus a well-established modernist goliath (Bp. Konderla)?  It was a perfect formula for an explosion of laity. 

    What a squandered opportunity. 


    Konderla Has TLM Tulsa Right Where He Wants Us

    The Tulsa Trads are now getting quarantined into their own little places.  The events of the past year have been a controlled and heavy-handed herding of people and resources. 


    If the Society of Saint Pius X gets regularized in Rome, the SSPX can only stay in places where it is already established with a building.  Well, we don't have that in Tulsa, so that's one less thing for Bishop Konderla to worry about. 

    There is no Society for us to run to now.  So when the diocesan TLM is rubbed out at Sts. Peter and Paul, off we go to the FSSP across the river. 


    [/font][/font]
    [font][font]
    I've nothing against the FSSP.  I'm happy they have a building now.  That's good.  I've been to the Mass at Most Precious Blood, and I know some of the people.  But when the new bishop came, we wondered if even the FSSP would survive his purging.  And if the FSSP goes?  Tulsa is full-on modernist Catholic.  The Novus Ordo laity will be able to happily exist in their controlled environment with the surrounding Protestants, here in the buckle of the Bible Belt.   

    For now, in my opinion, it really looks like the FSSP will be the last holdout for Traditional Catholics in Tulsa five years from now. 


    Overall Implications

    As I said earlier, I think that today, some people will not likely be engaging in Catholic practice any longer.  This act will actually harden these already-hardened people even further.  There have been so many abuses and scandals in the Catholic world.  I'm sure the families of the community are quite bitter for this seeming betrayal--if not for the loss of their invested money.   

    For the people who only attended SSPX Mass, I imagine that worship life, for them, will begin to resemble life for Japanese Catholic communities that were once not allowed to have priests.  They will become what are called "home aloners," who content themselves to listening to a broadcast, reading spiritual literature on Sundays, but not going to Mass.  Others, perhaps, will drive to Oklahoma City every Sunday, where there is still a stable SSPX presence.

    Will we hear about this in a public newspaper?  Ha!  Don't make me laugh.  Tulsa--and the New Order Catholic World--are currently agog about the beatification of Fr. Stanley Rother.  He died for those poor Guatemalans, don't you know?  (President Donald Trump would never understand!  WE NEED MORE IMMIGRATION!  VIVA LA RAZA!)  The SSPX is the odd family member who, during Thanksgiving dinner, sits at the table in the back of the house. 

    [/font][/font]
    Foucald's chapel.
    [font][font]
    Shortly after I was converted, I read .  This priest wanted to be a missionary after converting to the Catholic Church.  He was very excited.  He became a priest and rushed out into the Sahara Desert to attempt to evangelize the local Tuaregs.  Not a single person converted to Catholicism during his life out there--not even the guy who assisted him during his Masses, who remained a quiet Muslim.  Fr. Foucald nevertheless ardently fought for the necessity that Catholic Mass be held out there in that wasteland.  Even if no one attended his Mass, at the very least, it was there for anyone.  The potential for growth was there. 

    So where is our Charles de Foucald?  Where is our Stanley Rother?  Do we have such men to advocate for our cause?  Do we have someone like Fr. Rother who will help us build our Traditional Catholic community--even die for us?  Or do you only get that in FrancisNewChurch?  Do we only get the flashy buildings, the comfortable carpets, the Tulsa World ads and radio broadcasts if we go to Novus Ordo Mass?  Must we give credence to the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖist Fr. Martin?  Are we forced to "raise Hell" for Pope Francis' socialist causes if we are to remain Catholics in good standing who are worth the time?  Must we become a Church of dandies and secret cocaine-fueled gαy orgies to keep our community buildings?     

    Tulsa Traditional Catholics now experience neglect in many places.  We are an entire city of abused people, all of whom are abused in different ways.  Trad Catholics are no different, sadly.  No refuge for us.  There is no escape--except if you give in to the "love," turn on your NPR, give a wink and a nod to your gαy neighbor, throw up your hands, take a sip of champagne, and chuckle, "Who am I to judge?" 

    Good bye SSPX.

    [/font][/font]
    See ya.

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: SSPX Leaves Tulsa / I want specifically Cathinfo opinion
    « Reply #3 on: September 26, 2017, 07:37:01 AM »
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  • I thought you closed down the Hirsch Files.  What gives?

    As for the SSPX, welcome to the club.  Apparently, Tulsa wasn't providing what the SSPX wanted.  

    In any case, since it's always been about smells and bells for you, I'm sure you can find a nice, conservative Novus Ordo in the community.  There's usually one or two per diocese.

    Offline Tradplorable

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    Re: SSPX Leaves Tulsa / I want specifically Cathinfo opinion
    « Reply #4 on: September 26, 2017, 08:18:21 AM »
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  • You're crying because the SSPX suddenly left town? Really??
    .
    .
    .
    If that's the worst that's happened to you at the hands of the SSPX, count yourself lucky.


    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: SSPX Leaves Tulsa / I want specifically Cathinfo opinion
    « Reply #5 on: September 26, 2017, 09:24:38 AM »
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  • i always felt that the 'legitimizing" of the public black mass at the OKC Civic Center a few years back was an enthronement of lucifer. I think it happened twice publicly, without much opposition from the people ( although the SSPX did have a large presence against it the first time). After that, Tradition in Oklahoma started to fold rapidly. I'm sure Clear Creek is a target. Just my opinion.

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: SSPX Leaves Tulsa / I want specifically Cathinfo opinion
    « Reply #6 on: September 26, 2017, 09:49:17 AM »
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  • These are the things which happen in the Religion business.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: SSPX Leaves Tulsa / I want specifically Cathinfo opinion
    « Reply #7 on: September 26, 2017, 09:59:34 AM »
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  • These are the things which happen in the Religion business.

    SSPX corporate headquarters, aided by field Marshall Wegner decided this chapel was an unprofitable franchise. A "low ROI" unit.

    There's also, no reason to agitate the masonic powers to be, when you've re-branded your order to be friendly  :) to the world.

    And besides, leaving it open would only give the remaining true traditional Catholics hope.

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline 1st Mansion Tenant

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    Re: SSPX Leaves Tulsa / I want specifically Cathinfo opinion
    « Reply #8 on: September 26, 2017, 11:16:53 AM »
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  • In my mind's eye I see the guest a family picnic , having decided it's a bore after all, packing up the checkered cloth and goodies, skipping away with the basket swinging over his arm, whistling into the sunset.  Nothing left but dumbfounded looks and the obligatory ants.  Sorry this happened to you, Tulsa trads.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Leaves Tulsa / I want specifically Cathinfo opinion
    « Reply #9 on: September 26, 2017, 11:36:49 AM »
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  • It could be that +Fellay knows the new "agreement" will consolidate the sspx with the fssp and others, so he's closing down any small sspx chapels where fssp already exists.  No need for competition when they will be part of the same group soon.

    Offline St Ignatius

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    Re: SSPX Leaves Tulsa / I want specifically Cathinfo opinion
    « Reply #10 on: September 26, 2017, 11:44:39 AM »
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  • Quote
    For now, in my opinion, it really looks like the FSSP will be the last holdout for Traditional Catholics in Tulsa five years from now.
    Afterall, this was the sole objective of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei....


    Offline JPaul

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    Re: SSPX Leaves Tulsa / I want specifically Cathinfo opinion
    « Reply #11 on: September 26, 2017, 01:38:36 PM »
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  • SSPX corporate headquarters, aided by field Marshall Wegner decided this chapel was an unprofitable franchise. A "low ROI" unit.

    There's also, no reason to agitate the masonic powers to be, when you've re-branded your order to be friendly  :) to the world.

    And besides, leaving it open would only give the remaining true traditional Catholics hope.
    When such organizations become profitable all things change. Never for the better.
    Poverty brings many spiritual goods, prosperity usually the opposite. 
    The SSPX is tightening down their wagon's hitch to the tail of the Judaized, Masonic, and anti-Catholic conciliar entity, and have apparently adopted even more of their methods of operation. 
    They were fated to accept conciliarism as a part of the Catholic Church from their founding. Their was never a solid set of anti-conciliar principles put in place which has resulted in vascillating  policies and levels of resistance throughout their existence.
    It is a sad state of affairs for Catholics who have been caught up in it all, and have had false hope for all of these years.

    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    Re: SSPX Leaves Tulsa / I want specifically Cathinfo opinion
    « Reply #12 on: September 26, 2017, 02:13:39 PM »
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  • I thought you closed down the Hirsch Files.  What gives?

    As for the SSPX, welcome to the club.  Apparently, Tulsa wasn't providing what the SSPX wanted.  

    Spot on.  Yes.  It seems--to me, at least--that the Society came to Tulsa to be served.  And after things were getting dim, they sold the community's building, took the money, and ran.  

    Yes, the Hirsch Files were shut for a week due to a security issue.  It's been a touch-and-go situation for me.  I've no intention to stop writing or anything.  But I am hoping to get an alternative site up by the end of October.  

    However, things don't always work out how I'd like.  So, I guess we'll see how this goes.  
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Re: SSPX Leaves Tulsa / I want specifically Cathinfo opinion
    « Reply #13 on: September 26, 2017, 03:43:02 PM »
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  • Maybe the SSPX shut down their chapel in Tulsa for reasons that are unknown to us.  It could be that they lost a lease on a building or the priest was called for duty somewhere else.  Has anyone contacted the SSPX headquarters?  Maybe this chapel was shut down and sold to pool the money for other purposes. 

    Tradition doesn't always gain ground.  Sometimes it loses ground or regroups elsewhere. 

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX Leaves Tulsa / I want specifically Cathinfo opinion
    « Reply #14 on: September 26, 2017, 07:19:26 PM »
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  • How typical of the neo-SSPX.

    I'm not surprised by this at all.
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