Author Topic: SSPX: Kicking Off Holy Week with Tradcumenism  (Read 35193 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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SSPX: Kicking Off Holy Week with Tradcumenism
« on: March 28, 2021, 09:46:59 AM »
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  • It appears that the current pastor of the SSPX chapel in St. Paul, MN will continue the tradcumenical and conciliar integration process in Minnesota of his last three predecessors:

    This morning at the Low Mass, it was announced from the pulpit that there would be a musical performance given by SSPX faithful...at the FSSP chapel in Minneapolis.  The bulletin made no mention of this, but one can find a reference to it on the FSSP website, though it makes no mention of the SSPX (https://fsspminneapolis.org/uncategorized/holy-week-2021/).

    It is heartbreaking to know that such an announcement could be given without the least fear of backlash.  The old-timers apparently have no problem with this, and the young are oblivious to the fact that +Lefebvre had warned against such collaboration with compromised trads thusly:

    "And we must not waver for one moment either in not being with those who are in the process of betraying us. Some people are always admiring the grass in the neighbor's field. Instead of looking to their friends, to the Church's defenders, to those fighting on the battlefield, they look to our enemies on the other side. "After all, we must be charitable, we must be kind, we must not be divisive, after all, they are celebrating the Tridentine Mass, they are not as bad as everyone says"—but they are betraying us—betraying us! They are shaking hands with the Church's destroyers. They are shaking hands with people holding modernist and liberal ideas condemned by the Church. So they are doing the devil's work.

    Thus those who were with us and were working with us for the rights of Our Lord, for the salvation of souls, are now saying, "So long as they grant us the old Mass, we can shake hands with Rome, no problem." But we are seeing how it works out. They are in an impossible situation. Impossible. One cannot both shake hands with modernists and keep following Tradition. Not possible. Not possible.

    Now, stay in touch with them to bring them back, to convert them to Tradition, yes, if you like, that's the right kind of ecumenism! But give the impression that after all one almost regrets any break, that one likes talking to them? No way! These are people who call us corpse-like traditionalists, they are saying that we are as rigid as corpses, ours is not a living Tradition, we are glum-faced, ours is a glum Tradition! Unbelievable! Unimaginable! What kind of relations can you have with people like that?"
    http://sspx.org/en/two-years-after-consecrations

    The problem here, of course, is not a mere departure from the position of Archbishop Lefebvre, which would be wrong for its own sake.  The problem is in the implications and impact of such collaboration:

    From the vantage point of the FSSP, such collaboration inculcates within the minds of their faithful that they are really traditional: "Look, even the SSPX does not object to collaborating with us!"  Of course, prior to the SSPX ralliement, FSSP pastors never would have allowed an Archbishop Lefebvre, Bishop de Mallerais, or the local SSPX pastor to set foot in their chapels.  It is only because of all the compromises and concessions of the SSPX over the last 10+ years that makes such collaboration possible.  Moreover, any local SSPX pastor would have scoffed at the mere idea of bringing his faithful to a musical performance at an FSSP chapel.

    From the vantage point of the SSPX, these conciliar outreach initiatives prepare the terrain (and minds) for the slow-motion trainwreck of Tradition entering the conciliar church, by eliminating psychological obstacles and barriers to conciliar integration: If the various SSPX and indult chapels have been collaborating for years by visiting each others' chapels, using diocesan retreat houses, and even in some districts, having conciliar priests give sacraments and perform rites for SSPX faithful (e.g., African District), etc., then a legal recognition presents no difficulties at the practical level, and the division between conciliar and traditional clergy and faithful is really, in a certain sense, almost academic.

    Perhaps this is why the local chapel in St. Paul can announce in its website in the FAQ's section that: "We are a Catholic chapel in union with Rome that maintains the traditions proper to the Roman Rite of the Church."
    https://fsspx.today/chapel/mn-st-paul/fsspx-faqs/

    When Bishop Fellay suppressed Fr. Pivert's book ("Our Relations with Rome"), he gave as one of his reasons that the position of Archbishop Lefebvre and his stern opposition to the PCED groups was "counterproductive."  Bishop Fellay was departing from the position of his founder, and he did not want the faithful to read the words of +Lefebvre on this point.  But what did +Lefebvre say about such initiatives and collaborations?

    "This is what causes us a problem with certain layfolk, who are very nice, very good people, all for the Society, who accepted the Consecrations, but who have a kind of deep-down regret that they are no longer with the people they used to be with, people who did not accept the Consecrations and who are now against us. “It’s a pity we are divided”, they say, “why not meet up with them? Let’s go and have a drink together, reach out a hand to them”  – that’s a betrayal! Those saying this give the impression that at the drop of a hat they would cross over and join those who left us. They must make up their minds."
    http://sspx.org/en/two-years-after-consecrations  

    What is different today, is that this mindset which +Lefebvre called a betrayal not only pertains to the layfolk, but to the SSPX clergy and leadership itself (i.e., It is THEY who are arranging these "betrayals").

    No doubt, I would be told that after all, attending a musical performance with the FSSP faithful at their chapel is not as bad as attending their Masses.  But I would simply reply that the SSPX clergy themselves attend FSSP/indult Masses (Contrary to several articles still up on their websites), and even invite them to dispense sacraments to their faithful.

    But beside that, we have this additional objection from +Lefebvre (speaking of frequenting other venues offering the traditional Mass):

    "Yes, there is the Mass. That’s fine, but there is also the sermon; there is the atmosphere, the conversations, contacts before and after, which make you little by little change your ideas. It is therefore a danger and that’s why in general, I think it constitutes part of a whole. One does not merely go to Mass, one frequents a milieu.

    There are obviously some people who are attracted by the beautiful ceremonies, who also go to Fontgombault, where they have taken up the old mass again. They are in a climate of ambiguity which to my mind is dangerous. Once one finds oneself in this atmosphere, submitted to the Vatican, subject ultimately to the Council, one ends up by becoming ecumenical."
    http://www.drbo.org/lefebvre.htm

    In other words, it doesn't matter that the SSPX "faithful" will not be attending the indult Mass (a practice no longer opposed by the neo-SSPX anyway).  They are by this collaboration made to frequent a compromised milieu, designed to further integrate them into conciliar liberalism.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline Louis Bernard

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    Re: SSPX: Kicking Off Holy Week with Tradcumenism
    « Reply #1 on: March 28, 2021, 10:06:34 AM »
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  • I’m confused as to why this is happening.
    Doesn’t the SSPX view post conciliar ordinations as being doubtful?

    I read an article by Fr. Scott on the SSPX website a while back that espoused this view. There is furthermore another article that has a negative opinion of the FSSP on the SSPX website.

    So why would they partake in activities with a group that they are actively hostile to, at least in theory?

    Makes no sense.

    Really sad to hear either way. Things like this will only drive people to more radical approaches such as Home Aloner Sedevacantism because at some point or another people will perceive compromise in the faith everywhere. If you have the SSPX believing in the usefulness of the above and other such post Lefebvre developments that are nonsense, and Sedevacantist clergy (SSPX & Resistance believe this as well) believing in an implicit BoD that leads to a loophole where practically everyone is saved then where does that leave us? It’s a slippery slope that leads to despair and mistrust of everyone and it’s very depressing.
    Death Rather Than Sin


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX: Kicking Off Holy Week with Tradcumenism
    « Reply #2 on: March 28, 2021, 10:12:55 AM »
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  • Excellent article you wrote there, Sean!  More people need to read this. 

    I especially liked the words of +ABL. We need to place them before our eyes once in a while, or we're liable to forget. After all, it's not like +ABL is going to come to each one of us anymore. It's not like he's going to say Mass at our local chapel, or offer Confirmations any time soon. 

    If we don't seek out his writings, we'll eventually forget the words and wisdom of this providential, saintly prelate, sent by God to help preserve a remnant of Catholic Tradition.
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    Furthermore, I consider that Vatican II must be destroyed.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX: Kicking Off Holy Week with Tradcumenism
    « Reply #3 on: March 28, 2021, 10:16:35 AM »
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  • Really sad to hear either way. Things like this will only drive people to more radical approaches such as Home Aloner Sedevacantism because at some point or another people will perceive compromise in the faith everywhere. If you have the SSPX believing in the usefulness of the above and other such post Lefebvre developments that are nonsense, and Sedevacantist clergy (SSPX & Resistance believe this as well) believing in an implicit BoD that leads to a loophole where practically everyone is saved then where does that leave us? It’s a slippery slope that leads to despair and mistrust of everyone and it’s very depressing.

    *YOU* are slipping into despair, and extreme positions like Home Aloner Sedevacantism, and I don't appreciate you promoting your errors and dark clouds here on CathInfo.

    It is YOU that have a problem with the Resistance and Bishop Williamson. You better measure your words; this is a pro-Resistance forum, not a Home Aloner or Sedevacantist one. You are a guest here. I'm being "trad-cumenical" by allowing you to stay.

    And you are the one spending way too much time in the Feeneyite subforum. That is on you. You are the picky one who is finding fault and compromise everywhere.

    Nice that you see the problem -- too bad you don't apply it to yourself! You need to watch out; you're about a hair's breadth away from losing the Faith altogether. Be warned.
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    Furthermore, I consider that Vatican II must be destroyed.

    Offline Louis Bernard

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    Re: SSPX: Kicking Off Holy Week with Tradcumenism
    « Reply #4 on: March 28, 2021, 10:28:00 AM »
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  • *YOU* are slipping into despair, and extreme positions like Home Aloner Sedevacantism, and I don't appreciate you promoting your errors and dark clouds here on CathInfo.

    It is YOU that have a problem with the Resistance and Bishop Williamson. You better measure your words; this is a pro-Resistance forum, not a Home Aloner or Sedevacantist one. You are a guest here. I'm being "trad-cumenical" by allowing you to stay.

    And you are the one spending way too much time in the Feeneyite subforum. That is on you. You are the picky one who is finding fault and compromise everywhere.

    Nice that you see the problem -- too bad you don't apply it to yourself! You need to watch out; you're about a hair's breadth away from losing the Faith altogether. Be warned.
    Home Alonism and Sedevacantism in general are fatal errors. I don’t want to derail the thread with my reasoning for this view, but that is my view just to be clear.

    I don’t have a problem with the Resistance or with Bishop Williamson. I am only making an observation that if we are to be fair then when we say the SSPX compromises with certain things because of an action or inaction that has taken place then we must do the same when it comes to other groups. No more no less. No one is perfect.

    I appreciate your charity in allowing me to stay even though you perceived that I held to views that are against your own and the forum.

    Yes. The EENS issue is something that I have recently been concerned with and maybe it isn’t for the best.

    Lastly, it’s not just a perception of compromise, but an equitable judging of the same principles being used to judge the SSPX that I apply to the Resistance and others as well. That is to be charitable, no?

    Perhaps I am at fault for being too hasty in viewing things negatively when they ought to be viewed in a more pragmatic way.

    I sure hope I never lose the Faith. It’s everything to me. Please keep me in your prayers.
    Death Rather Than Sin


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX: Kicking Off Holy Week with Tradcumenism
    « Reply #5 on: March 28, 2021, 10:55:50 AM »
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  • Home Alonism and Sedevacantism in general are fatal errors. I don’t want to derail the thread with my reasoning for this view, but that is my view just to be clear.

    I don’t have a problem with the Resistance or with Bishop Williamson. I am only making an observation that if we are to be fair then when we say the SSPX compromises with certain things because of an action or inaction that has taken place then we must do the same when it comes to other groups. No more no less. No one is perfect.

    I appreciate your charity in allowing me to stay even though you perceived that I held to views that are against your own and the forum.

    Yes. The EENS issue is something that I have recently been concerned with and maybe it isn’t for the best.

    Lastly, it’s not just a perception of compromise, but an equitable judging of the same principles being used to judge the SSPX that I apply to the Resistance and others as well. That is to be charitable, no?

    Perhaps I am at fault for being too hasty in viewing things negatively when they ought to be viewed in a more pragmatic way.

    I sure hope I never lose the Faith. It’s everything to me. Please keep me in your prayers.

    Hi Louis-

    Nobody with good judgment will ever come to the conclusion that there are no faithful priests or groups left, as this would contradict the Church being a visible and indefectible society.

    But some may incorrectly reach this conclusion, against their will, if they do not have sound judgment.

    Check this out and see what you think:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/sean-johnson-pfeifferites-lack-the-virtue-of-euboulia/msg544470/#msg544470

    An example which might imply that judgment is a bit off was your equation of +Williamson’s promotion of Valtorta and the SSPX changes, compromises, and contradictions.

    A sound judgment would reason something along these lines:

    There is no proportion between the scope, magnitude, and comprehensiveness in the changes/compromises between the two, and therefore my reaction might be different between the two.

    Most unbiased reasonable people would not shun a whole group of priests because of a single objectively minor flaw of a single member who has stated many times he does not believe himself to have the authority to bind anyone to his teachings (eg., Many priests might also recommend reading Canterbury Tales, likewise once on the Index, but one who would flee the group of such a priest as being necessary to save him from compromise would not generally be said to be exhibiting sound judgment).

    One with sound judgment might also recall Archbishop Lefebvre being aware of Fr. Barrielle promoting this book, and Lefebvre warning against the dangers of these “too human” depictions of Our Lord, while recalling Lefebvre never forced him to recant, much less expelling him.

    I could go on in this fashion, but you get the point:

    Any time you feel/fear you are being led into a home alone/ecclesiavacantist direction, it is a sign you have not judged the matter correctly.

    Anyway, I just wanted to provide you (and others) the link above.

    Hope you have a blessed Holy Week.

    Sean
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX: Kicking Off Holy Week with Tradcumenism
    « Reply #6 on: March 28, 2021, 10:57:05 AM »
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  • Even if Bishop Williamson personally was in error about something like Maria Valtorta (which I will not concede, but let's pass over it for now), it wouldn't mean I have to stop supporting him. Especially since he does NOT require his "followers" to agree with him on that controversial book. It is his personal opinion, which he is welcome to.

    Furthermore, it MOST CERTAINLY does not mean I have to extend that "anathema" from Bp. Williamson himself to the movement he supports (the Resistance) and other bishops and priests in that movement. Nothing Bp Williamson did, said, or believed would mean I can/should stop going to Stella Maris Chapel outside Houston or St. Dominic's Chapel in Seguin, TX -- both are associated with the Resistance and Bp. Zendejas in particular.

    But that is PRECISELY how all-too-many picky, foolish trads think. They get into a Quixotic quest for perfection, and when they find the slightest imperfection, it spreads like cooties to other priests in the group, the whole group, and the Faithful who support that group. And that is why I jumped right on this. I've seen it too many times. I've seen home aloners convince daughters with young children to stop going to perfectly-good Resistance chapels because they were full of propaganda from the likes of Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer, and/or their own opinions and ideas after reading old Papal Bulls. It's complete insanity, completely devoid of Catholic common sense or sanity checks.
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    Furthermore, I consider that Vatican II must be destroyed.

    Offline Louis Bernard

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    Re: SSPX: Kicking Off Holy Week with Tradcumenism
    « Reply #7 on: March 28, 2021, 11:04:16 AM »
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  • Hi Louis-

    Nobody with good judgment will ever come to the conclusion that there are no faithful priests or groups left, as this would contradict the Church being a visible and indefectible society.

    But some may incorrectly reach this conclusion, against their will, if they do not have sound judgment.

    Check this out and see what you think:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/sean-johnson-pfeifferites-lack-the-virtue-of-euboulia/msg544470/#msg544470

    An example which might imply that judgment is a bit off was your equation of +Williamson’s promotion of Valtorta and the SSPX changes, compromises, and contradictions.

    A sound judgment would reason something along these lines:

    There is no proportion between the scope, magnitude, and comprehensiveness in the changes/compromises between the two, and therefore my reaction might be different between the two.

    Most unbiased reasonable people would not shun a whole group of priests because of a single objectively minor flaw of a single member who has stated many times he does not believe himself to have the authority to bind anyone to his teachings (eg., Many priests might also recommend reading Canterbury Tales, likewise once on the Index, but one who would flee the group of such a priest as being necessary to save him from compromise would not generally be said to be exhibiting sound judgment).

    One with sound judgment might also recall Archbishop Lefebvre being aware of Fr. Barrielle promoting this book, and Lefebvre warning against the dangers of these “too human” depictions of Our Lord, while recalling Lefebvre never forced him to recant, much less expelling him.

    I could go on in this fashion, but you get the point:

    Any time you feel/fear you are being led into a home alone/ecclesiavacantist direction, it is a sign you have not judged the matter correctly.

    Anyway, I just wanted to provide you (and others) the link above.

    Hope you have a blessed Holy Week.

    Sean
    Hi Sean.

    Indeed my judgement was unsound in equating one man’s opinions which he does not bind others to with the entirety of the group he belongs to and furthermore comparing it to another group which has as a whole been increasingly falling into more and more errors.

    As a human sometimes it’s too easy to give in to despair. I tend to think in the natural rather than the supernatural. A massive error on my part.

    Thank you for your kind and fraternal correction.

    I hope you have a blessed Holy Week as well.

    God Bless
    Death Rather Than Sin


    Offline Louis Bernard

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    Re: SSPX: Kicking Off Holy Week with Tradcumenism
    « Reply #8 on: March 28, 2021, 11:07:10 AM »
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  • Even if Bishop Williamson personally was in error about something like Maria Valtorta (which I will not concede, but let's pass over it for now), it wouldn't mean I have to stop supporting him. Especially since he does NOT require his "followers" to agree with him on that controversial book. It is his personal opinion, which he is welcome to.

    Furthermore, it MOST CERTAINLY does not mean I have to extend that "anathema" from Bp. Williamson himself to the movement he supports (the Resistance) and other bishops and priests in that movement. Nothing Bp Williamson did, said, or believed would mean I can/should stop going to Stella Maris Chapel outside Houston or St. Dominic's Chapel in Seguin, TX -- both are associated with the Resistance and Bp. Zendejas in particular.

    But that is PRECISELY how all-too-many picky, foolish trads think. They get into a Quixotic quest for perfection, and when they find the slightest imperfection, it spreads like cooties to other priests in the group, the whole group, and the Faithful who support that group. And that is why I jumped right on this. I've seen it too many times. I've seen home aloners convince daughters with young children to stop going to perfectly-good Resistance chapels because they were full of propaganda from the likes of Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer, and/or their own opinions and ideas after reading old Papal Bulls. It's complete insanity, completely devoid of Catholic common sense or sanity checks.
    I understand. It was a hasty, rash, and all too human way of thinking on my part which desires perfection in a fallen world.

    I appreciate your zeal and respect for the Faith and your pragmatic approach.
    God Bless you for this forum as it is a gift. 

    I have learned much already from what little time I have spent here.

    Have a blessed Holy Week as well.
    Death Rather Than Sin

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: SSPX: Kicking Off Holy Week with Tradcumenism
    « Reply #9 on: March 28, 2021, 04:20:00 PM »
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  • Is there anyone willing to wager that on Good Friday during the Solemn Prayers, the SSPX/FSSP will not genuflect for the jews?

    The current neo-Trad bookie odds are 48,739/1 that they will genuflect:popcorn:




    Within and restricted to the Good Friday liturgy are the "Solemn Prayers or supplications for all conditions of men".
    It is a collection of prayers for the Pope, the clergy, the faithful, catechumens, heretics, jews, pagans, idolators...etc.

    For each group, the celebrant, using the ferial tone of a Collect, prays a Bidding prayer, preceded by a genuflection "Flectamus genua & Levate".  However, when it came to the prayers for the perfidious jews, the genuflection was purposefully omitted.

    Why?  Because the jews had specifically employed genuflections to mock Our Lord during His Passion.
    Therefore, our Church Fathers eliminated such a reverence for them.  Obviously, part of the price of their Deicide.

    But... genuflections for the jews were added to the 1962 liturgy?    Did the jews get better somehow?  Of course not!

    Since no genuflection was a traditional practice in the Good Friday Liturgy (and we do hope to hold fast to Catholic traditions), which priests are still genuflecting for the jews... and why?

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX: Kicking Off Holy Week with Tradcumenism
    « Reply #10 on: March 28, 2021, 04:32:05 PM »
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  • It appears that the current pastor of the SSPX chapel in St. Paul, MN will continue the tradcumenical and conciliar integration process in Minnesota of his last three predecessors:

    This morning at the Low Mass, it was announced from the pulpit that there would be a musical performance given by SSPX faithful...at the FSSP chapel in Minneapolis.  The bulletin made no mention of this, but one can find a reference to it on the FSSP website, though it makes no mention of the SSPX (https://fsspminneapolis.org/uncategorized/holy-week-2021/).

    It is heartbreaking to know that such an announcement could be given without the least fear of backlash.  The old-timers apparently have no problem with this, and the young are oblivious to the fact that +Lefebvre had warned against such collaboration with compromised trads thusly:

    "And we must not waver for one moment either in not being with those who are in the process of betraying us. Some people are always admiring the grass in the neighbor's field. Instead of looking to their friends, to the Church's defenders, to those fighting on the battlefield, they look to our enemies on the other side. "After all, we must be charitable, we must be kind, we must not be divisive, after all, they are celebrating the Tridentine Mass, they are not as bad as everyone says"—but they are betraying us—betraying us! They are shaking hands with the Church's destroyers. They are shaking hands with people holding modernist and liberal ideas condemned by the Church. So they are doing the devil's work.

    Thus those who were with us and were working with us for the rights of Our Lord, for the salvation of souls, are now saying, "So long as they grant us the old Mass, we can shake hands with Rome, no problem." But we are seeing how it works out. They are in an impossible situation. Impossible. One cannot both shake hands with modernists and keep following Tradition. Not possible. Not possible.

    Now, stay in touch with them to bring them back, to convert them to Tradition, yes, if you like, that's the right kind of ecumenism! But give the impression that after all one almost regrets any break, that one likes talking to them? No way! These are people who call us corpse-like traditionalists, they are saying that we are as rigid as corpses, ours is not a living Tradition, we are glum-faced, ours is a glum Tradition! Unbelievable! Unimaginable! What kind of relations can you have with people like that?"
    http://sspx.org/en/two-years-after-consecrations

    The problem here, of course, is not a mere departure from the position of Archbishop Lefebvre, which would be wrong for its own sake.  The problem is in the implications and impact of such collaboration:

    From the vantage point of the FSSP, such collaboration inculcates within the minds of their faithful that they are really traditional: "Look, even the SSPX does not object to collaborating with us!"  Of course, prior to the SSPX ralliement, FSSP pastors never would have allowed an Archbishop Lefebvre, Bishop de Mallerais, or the local SSPX pastor to set foot in their chapels.  It is only because of all the compromises and concessions of the SSPX over the last 10+ years that makes such collaboration possible.  Moreover, any local SSPX pastor would have scoffed at the mere idea of bringing his faithful to a musical performance at an FSSP chapel.

    From the vantage point of the SSPX, these conciliar outreach initiatives prepare the terrain (and minds) for the slow-motion trainwreck of Tradition entering the conciliar church, by eliminating psychological obstacles and barriers to conciliar integration: If the various SSPX and indult chapels have been collaborating for years by visiting each others' chapels, using diocesan retreat houses, and even in some districts, having conciliar priests give sacraments and perform rites for SSPX faithful (e.g., African District), etc., then a legal recognition presents no difficulties at the practical level, and the division between conciliar and traditional clergy and faithful is really, in a certain sense, almost academic.

    Perhaps this is why the local chapel in St. Paul can announce in its website in the FAQ's section that: "We are a Catholic chapel in union with Rome that maintains the traditions proper to the Roman Rite of the Church."
    https://fsspx.today/chapel/mn-st-paul/fsspx-faqs/

    When Bishop Fellay suppressed Fr. Pivert's book ("Our Relations with Rome"), he gave as one of his reasons that the position of Archbishop Lefebvre and his stern opposition to the PCED groups was "counterproductive."  Bishop Fellay was departing from the position of his founder, and he did not want the faithful to read the words of +Lefebvre on this point.  But what did +Lefebvre say about such initiatives and collaborations?

    "This is what causes us a problem with certain layfolk, who are very nice, very good people, all for the Society, who accepted the Consecrations, but who have a kind of deep-down regret that they are no longer with the people they used to be with, people who did not accept the Consecrations and who are now against us. “It’s a pity we are divided”, they say, “why not meet up with them? Let’s go and have a drink together, reach out a hand to them”  – that’s a betrayal! Those saying this give the impression that at the drop of a hat they would cross over and join those who left us. They must make up their minds."
    http://sspx.org/en/two-years-after-consecrations  

    What is different today, is that this mindset which +Lefebvre called a betrayal not only pertains to the layfolk, but to the SSPX clergy and leadership itself (i.e., It is THEY who are arranging these "betrayals").

    No doubt, I would be told that after all, attending a musical performance with the FSSP faithful at their chapel is not as bad as attending their Masses.  But I would simply reply that the SSPX clergy themselves attend FSSP/indult Masses (Contrary to several articles still up on their websites), and even invite them to dispense sacraments to their faithful.

    But beside that, we have this additional objection from +Lefebvre (speaking of frequenting other venues offering the traditional Mass):

    "Yes, there is the Mass. That’s fine, but there is also the sermon; there is the atmosphere, the conversations, contacts before and after, which make you little by little change your ideas. It is therefore a danger and that’s why in general, I think it constitutes part of a whole. One does not merely go to Mass, one frequents a milieu.

    There are obviously some people who are attracted by the beautiful ceremonies, who also go to Fontgombault, where they have taken up the old mass again. They are in a climate of ambiguity which to my mind is dangerous. Once one finds oneself in this atmosphere, submitted to the Vatican, subject ultimately to the Council, one ends up by becoming ecumenical."
    http://www.drbo.org/lefebvre.htm

    In other words, it doesn't matter that the SSPX "faithful" will not be attending the indult Mass (a practice no longer opposed by the neo-SSPX anyway).  They are by this collaboration made to frequent a compromised milieu, designed to further integrate them into conciliar liberalism.

    I see this OP got 3 down votes in 5 minutes, at a time when no known indulters were logged in.

    It almost makes one suspect someone with an interest in defending the SSPX sellout activated several of his sleeper accounts (knowing any post he made would be quickly deleted).

    🤔
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline Louis Bernard

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    Re: SSPX: Kicking Off Holy Week with Tradcumenism
    « Reply #11 on: March 28, 2021, 05:37:57 PM »
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  • Is there anyone willing to wager that on Good Friday during the Solemn Prayers, the SSPX/FSSP will not genuflect for the jews?

    The current neo-Trad bookie odds are 48,739/1 that they will genuflect.  :popcorn:




    Within and restricted to the Good Friday liturgy are the "Solemn Prayers or supplications for all conditions of men".
    It is a collection of prayers for the Pope, the clergy, the faithful, catechumens, heretics, jews, pagans, idolators...etc.

    For each group, the celebrant, using the ferial tone of a Collect, prays a Bidding prayer, preceded by a genuflection "Flectamus genua & Levate".  However, when it came to the prayers for the perfidious jews, the genuflection was purposefully omitted.

    Why?  Because the jews had specifically employed genuflections to mock Our Lord during His Passion.
    Therefore, our Church Fathers eliminated such a reverence for them.  Obviously, part of the price of their Deicide.

    But... genuflections for the jews were added to the 1962 liturgy?    Did the jews get better somehow?  Of course not!

    Since no genuflection was a traditional practice in the Good Friday Liturgy (and we do hope to hold fast to Catholic traditions), which priests are still genuflecting for the jews... and why?




    It’s a beautiful prayer


    Death Rather Than Sin

    Offline Louis Bernard

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    Re: SSPX: Kicking Off Holy Week with Tradcumenism
    « Reply #12 on: March 28, 2021, 05:47:40 PM »
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  • I see this OP got 3 down votes in 5 minutes, at a time when no known indulters were logged in.

    It almost makes one suspect someone with an interest in defending the SSPX sellout activated several of his sleeper accounts (knowing any post he made would be quickly deleted).

    🤔
    Embarrassingly one of those downvotes was mine. I use a mobile phone to access the site to post and things don’t always load correctly on the page. I was trying to view your profile and accidentally gave you a thumbs down. I tried changing it but I got a message “you already voted on this post.” I can’t even remove it.

    I’m not a big fan of this up/down vote functionality. Seems like it can be easily abused.
    Death Rather Than Sin

    Offline Spork

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    Re: SSPX: Kicking Off Holy Week with Tradcumenism
    « Reply #13 on: March 28, 2021, 07:20:29 PM »
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  • It is my experience that there is far more piety and better preaching on Faith and morals in the FSSP than the SSPX.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: SSPX: Kicking Off Holy Week with Tradcumenism
    « Reply #14 on: March 28, 2021, 07:59:45 PM »
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  • It is my experience that there is far more piety and better preaching on Faith and morals in the FSSP than the SSPX.

    Yeah, but for the sake of expediency, they accepted the Novus ordo missae...



    Which is fundamental, baseline error that gravely contradicts their preaching on Faith & Morals.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


     

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