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Author Topic: SSPX Immodesty Down Under  (Read 7232 times)

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Offline X

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Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2019, 06:51:26 AM »
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  • Modesty does not mean having to look frumpy. The neoSSPX direction on appropriate clothing I perceive as a perhaps subconscious reaction against what I may call Amish-like Puritanism that existed amongst some parents during my brief stint as a live-in teacher/house father/anything computer related graphic designer et al. And yet the inconsistency/hypocrisy of these same parents (girls wearing kilts????

    To speak yet again of hypocrisy.....said mission chapel where bears truly attends on occasion - at least to obtain the Sacraments of Confession and The Holy Eucharist - sees the priest railing against immodest dress by men and women (specifically a case of an adult server wearing jeans to a Mass where he was to serve - wherein the young gentleman was publicly admonished and refused Holy Communion. The entire episode should have been handled discretely and with I pray, greater humility. The hypocrisy layeth in the fact that the said priest does not wear his cassock, but black pants and black sports vest.
    I sense the time will come soon that I shall be advised by the Resistance priest I know and am beholden towards,alas that we are separated by a goodly distance.

    Soon comes summer to these northerly parts, and the shedding of the garments and thus exposing way way way too much epidermis, but sporting articles that hardly veil what Monty Python oft referred to as "the naughty bits."

    I guess we most continue to teach about the beauty of modesty (ladies) and the masculine chivalric ethos as expressed in apparel.

    For the women..........



    And for what truly TradCat men should aspire towards....(I REALLY want to wear this to Mass one day! I even have chainmail coif! :) :) :) :) :) :) :incense: :incense: :incense:

    Where can outfits like these be purchased??
    The woman’s dress is BEAUTIFUL!!
    I can imagine many women being excited about having new, similar options!


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #31 on: May 06, 2019, 08:38:01 AM »
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  • Even in the hot Southern California summer when the temperatures rose to 115 or more, we still wore this inner tunic to bed, and we were required to cover our bodies with at least one sheet with our hands crossing our chest. Some nuns even slept in a coffin to remind themselves that death could overtake them at any time and that our guardian angels would blush if we slept immodestly.

    We are never alone as our guardian angels are always with us. We should respect them by dressing modestly at all times, even when alone.

    Yes, but God and our guardian angels don't have uncontrolled concupiscence which is a result of Original Sin. Our lower natures are like dogs that run off this way and that, and therefore needs to be disciplined, controlled, and on a leash.

    And clothing became required ONLY after Original Sin. Note that Adam and Eve walked around naked 24/7 before the Fall. Did Adam and Eve cause God and/or the angels to blush before the Fall?

    What changed for the angels after Adam and Eve fell? Nothing. Only mankind changed -- WE need to wear clothing for OUR benefit, to prevent concupiscence arising in ourselves and others.

    Our guardian angels would blush? I thought that blushing required having a physical body: cheeks of flesh, blood, and capillaries (blood vessels) in said cheeks that cause the blushing? I was taught that angels were "separated substances" to use a Thomistic theological term, or "pure spirits" in common speech.

    The human body isn't evil or disgusting in the sight of God or the angels. Nor does it cause temptation, sin, or enkindling of concupiscence in pure spirits. Angels see human beings as objectively, rationally, and dispassionately as we see a file on our computer. Do I blush if a file hasn't been zipped into a ZIP file archive? Of course not. The angels understand everything with complete intuition. They completely wrap their minds around everything in this natural world. The greatest human genius has more to "explore" and learn from a simple baby toy (like a rattle) than an angel has to learn about *anything* in this world, including quantum physics. For an angel, the whole physical world is like the simplest baby toy.

    Saying the angels "blush" just goes to show how they are being anthropomorphized (given human traits), and where such thinking comes from -- thinking subjectively from a human point of view, rather than Catholic dogma or theology.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #32 on: May 06, 2019, 08:52:03 AM »
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  • That having been said, I think the issue is with *prolonged* nudity by oneself, which is unnecessary, uncivilized, violates the idea that we are temples of the Holy Ghost (chalices, tabernacles, etc. are always veiled by default even when the church is empty), and is a temptation to impurity.

    That is to say -- nudity beyond how long it takes to use the bathroom, change clothes, or take a shower.

    Just like the tabernacle is exposed/unveiled for a minute or two -- while switching veils due to a change in the Liturgical color called for.

    Taking a shower would be the equivalent of changing veils on the tabernacle. But you wouldn't take off the tabernacle's veil and go home for the night -- nor should we walk around the house naked, just because we're a bachelor living alone.

    It's mostly so that we aren't constantly reminded of our shameful members, and that we not be tempted to acts of impurity. We should think on higher things, not our basest functions and basest members.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #33 on: May 06, 2019, 09:01:41 AM »
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  • Quote
    Saying the angels "blush" just goes to show how they are being anthropomorphized (given human traits), and where such thinking comes from -- thinking subjectively from a human point of view, rather than Catholic dogma or theology.
    I agree, this is a sentimental description.  But I did hear a story about a saint who said that our guardian angels were sad when people were immodest, not because they were affected by the human body, but because the sinful activity offended God. 

    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #34 on: May 06, 2019, 01:02:36 PM »
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  • Where can outfits like these be purchased??
    The woman’s dress is BEAUTIFUL!!
    I can imagine many women being excited about having new, similar options!
    Look up armstreet.com
    There be some very pretty ladies therein but whether they be TradCat  :) I know not. 
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster


    Offline Laud A Haug

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #35 on: May 06, 2019, 01:32:54 PM »
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  • Seems like lots of puritanicals on this thread.

    Online ByzCat3000

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #36 on: May 06, 2019, 01:37:58 PM »
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  • I agree, this is a sentimental description.  But I did hear a story about a saint who said that our guardian angels were sad when people were immodest, not because they were affected by the human body, but because the sinful activity offended God.
    Yes, but presumably it offends God because it scandalizes others, or at least has the real potential to (as in, for instance, the whole hypothetical about walking naked on an abandoned beach.  Someone *could* still show up there.)

    I don't think its because the angels or God are scandalized by seeing the human body.  If it did, then showering nude would be problematic.  I don't see how modesty isn't ultimately for the benefit of other people.

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #37 on: May 06, 2019, 01:47:07 PM »
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  • Seems like lots of puritanicals on this thread.
    No, just people who value the virtue of modesty because God values it.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #38 on: May 06, 2019, 01:48:03 PM »
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     I don't see how modesty isn't ultimately for the benefit of other people.
    This is true in one sense, but false in the overall sense.  It's a form of the error of humanism, where we describe spiritual things in human terms.  God is all pure, which means that the human definition of purity comes from God first, based on His essential nature.
    .
    There are various types of modesty, which is ultimately, part of the overall virtue of chastity.  There is personal modesty and modesty in relation to our neighbor.  Christ told us infallibly in scripture that if one consents to an impure thought, that they commit fornication.  Therefore, even if a person dresses and acts modestly in all public forums and if they are very pure in relation to their neighbor, they can still be impure in the eyes of God, based on their mental state.  To act immodestly when alone is just an example of being impure in one's mind.

    Online ByzCat3000

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #39 on: May 06, 2019, 01:52:15 PM »
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  • This is true in one sense, but false in the overall sense.  It's a form of the error of humanism, where we describe spiritual things in human terms.  God is all pure, which means that the human definition of purity comes from God first, based on His essential nature.
    .
    There are various types of modesty, which is ultimately, part of the overall virtue of chastity.  There is personal modesty and modesty in relation to our neighbor.  Christ told us infallibly in scripture that if one consents to an impure thought, that they commit fornication.  Therefore, even if a person dresses and acts modestly in all public forums and if they are very pure in relation to their neighbor, they can still be impure in the eyes of God, based on their mental state.  To act immodestly when alone is just an example of being impure in one's mind.
    Right, but I have no idea how something like being underdressed while sleeping (alone) is any more "immodest" than showering or such while naked.  Obviously I agree one can have immodest thoughts or such, even while alone.  But it seems like some people here think people need to be fully dressed at all times (except while showering) 'cause "immodest dress" scandalizes the angels or something like that, and that's what I'm majorly not understanding.

    Admittedly, I'm acting on the presupposition that nobody is caused to lust by seeing their own body.  

    Online ByzCat3000

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #40 on: May 06, 2019, 01:53:03 PM »
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  • The Guardian Angel line doesn't really make sense and sounds vaguely Gnostic to me. The Apostles are often depicted as having fished topless, due to the heat and the sweat from the intensity of the work. Were their Guardian Angels scandalised? This assertion being thrown around here that modesty has nothing to do with the audience is a little strange. Yes it's uncivilised and shameless if you're just strolling around your house completely naked or just in your boxers, even if no one's around. And you could call that an issue of modesty I guess. But after the most basic level of covering up it's completely dependent on the audience. Taking your shirt off while you're overheating from hard work in the sun, your only company being other men, - there's nothing wrong with that. Doing so for no practical reason around women is obviously immodest. I personally wouldn't go around in front of women in just my boxer-shorts and a t-shirt, but why exactly would that be a problem while sleeping in my own bed? My Guardian Angel will already have to see me when I'm getting changed or in the shower. Some people even go to the ridiculous extreme of saying Guardian Angels are scandalised by babies being left naked for a moment while being changed. Ridiculous!
    Yeah basically I'm in agreement with this.  


    Offline Laud A Haug

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #41 on: May 06, 2019, 02:00:31 PM »
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    No, just people who value the virtue of modesty because God values it.

    Modesty is great. I'm all for females wearing long skirts and dresses passed heir knees, and not wearing pants, and sleeves that aren't too short, and no low cut tops and tight fitting clothes. And wearing chapel veils at Mass.

    And males shouldn't be trying to show off their bodies with tight clothes or walking around with no shirt when it's not necessary.

    But let's not get puritanical.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #42 on: May 06, 2019, 02:00:42 PM »
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  • No, just people who value the virtue of modesty because God values it.
    God never demanded Adam and Eve cover up. 

    Offline homeschoolmom

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #43 on: May 06, 2019, 02:03:43 PM »
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  • I don't see how modesty isn't ultimately for the benefit of other people.

    Our external appearance affects our interior disposition, or maybe it's the other way around. In any case, the way we dress affects how we think, feel and act. Put on an apron and you feel like baking, put on some work boots and you're ready to get to a project outside, stay in PJs all day if you are sick and having a lazy day. On it goes. Different jobs have different uniforms. Not only does that signal to others what you do for a living or what your skills may be, it also affects how you carry yourself. Because of that deep relationship between clothing and interior disposition, dressing modestly at all times is beneficial to ourselves as well.

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #44 on: May 06, 2019, 02:05:07 PM »
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  • God never demanded Adam and Eve cover up.
    You're right. We should walk around naked! lol
    No, God has never demanded we be clothed. But our concupiscence and lust after the Fall in the Garden has necessitated clothing.