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Author Topic: SSPX Immodesty Down Under  (Read 19597 times)

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Offline Your Friend Colin

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Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2019, 10:08:05 PM »
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  • Quote
    (perhaps there's explicit church teaching on this, but I'm unaware of it.)
    “Women and girls who wear immodest clothes are to be prohibited from Holy Communion and from the office of sponsor in the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation, and in certain cases, they are to be prohibited even from entry into the church.”

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #16 on: May 05, 2019, 10:24:32 PM »
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  • “Women and girls who wear immodest clothes are to be prohibited from Holy Communion and from the office of sponsor in the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation, and in certain cases, they are to be prohibited even from entry into the church.”
    I meant explicit teaching on *what* constitutes immodesty, not on the immorality of immodesty.  Though maybe the other post you made answers that question.  


    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #17 on: May 05, 2019, 10:51:37 PM »
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  • 2. This topic was created to demonstrate yet another piece of evidence that the SSPX has completely changed its tune on this topic. All the SSPX priests used to preach that women must dress modestly, which excludes slacks, shorts and pants. The new, younger priests counsel things in the confessional like "wear however short a skirt your conscience will allow".
    When I was involved with the SSPX 20+ years ago, only a handful of SSPX priests were saying that modesty for women excluded pants and slacks in public. I don't know why you think that was "all" SSPX priests.

    Attire at Church naturally has higher standards - for men and women - than attire in public.  The Marylike standards say "slacks and jeans are not to be worn at church".

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #18 on: May 05, 2019, 10:55:23 PM »
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  •  Although I suppose the question would be were they swimming together or separately. If it was separately then I suppose modesty's a bit of a non-issue.
    That's a charitable thought, but if they were even attempting to keep the boys and girls separate for the sake of modesty, they wouldn't have taken photos of the event.
    .
    That would be like taking a selfie in the shower and then posting it online claiming there's no issue of immodesty as no one was there!  :jester:

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #19 on: May 05, 2019, 11:05:55 PM »
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  • I meant explicit teaching on *what* constitutes immodesty, not on the immorality of immodesty.  Though maybe the other post you made answers that question.  
    What I quoted in my first reply was Pius XI’s teaching on what constituted modest dress. If it doesn’t fit that standard, it can be considered immodest.
    This was issued in 1930. Imagine what he would say about women’s dress today.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #20 on: May 05, 2019, 11:31:06 PM »
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  • Quote
    If they felt comfortable enough, may kindly mention norms and importance of modest fashion.  But to get so bothered that it interferes with your prayer life at Mass?  HMmmmm?
    Is it not a scandal?  Does immodesty not offend God?  Did Our Lady at Fatima not say that most people go to hell from sins of the flesh?  And that many immodest fashions would be introduced which would offend Our Lord?

    Was St Theresa of Avila, while a nun, not shown her place in hell where she was destined because of her lukewarmness?

    Will those Trads who blur the lines between modesty and immodesty not be guilty of lukewarmness?  Will God not “vomit them from his mouth”, as He said in the Old Testament?

    Are we temples of the Holy Ghost or not?  Does our guardian angel not see us at all times or not?  Is purity and modesty for God?  Or is it just for others?

    Are we not called to be perfect?  Are we trying to save our souls or not?

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #21 on: May 05, 2019, 11:33:27 PM »
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    Does our guardian angel not see us at all times or not?  Is purity and modesty for God?  Or is it just for others?
    Obviously its to honor God in the sense of not causing other humans to stumble and such.  But if its *directly* for God, our Guardian Angel, etc. then why would this not rule out things like showering nude and such?

    I'm not trying to be difficult here, just trying to understand some of the reasoning.

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #22 on: May 05, 2019, 11:47:27 PM »
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  • Can I walk nude on a beach if I am the only one on it?

    I recall a story about the BVM visiting a monastery, blessing the monks in their cells as she walked by their doors, but skipping past one of them.  Asked why, she is reported to have said because that monk did not sleep modestly.  Whether it was true or not, the lesson was that modesty is required even when alone.  

    When I was in a monastery as a novice, we wore an inner tunic at all times (except when showering). That inner tunic served as our nightgown and as our inner tunic over which we placed the holy habit (the outer tunic).

    Even in the hot Southern California summer when the temperatures rose to 115 or more, we still wore this inner tunic to bed, and we were required to cover our bodies with at least one sheet with our hands crossing our chest. Some nuns even slept in a coffin to remind themselves that death could overtake them at any time and that our guardian angels would blush if we slept immodestly.

    We are never alone as our guardian angels are always with us. We should respect them by dressing modestly at all times, even when alone.

    Also remember that God is everywhere present and sees all things.

    O Heavenly King, O Comforter, O Spirit of Truth,
    Who art everywhere present and fillest all things,
    Come and abide in us, and cleanse us of all impurity,
    And save our souls, O Good One.
    Lord have mercy.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #23 on: May 05, 2019, 11:48:03 PM »
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  • We are both body and soul. We have to take care of our body by eating, drinking, health and cleanliness.  Outside of this, immodesty can come into play, even when alone.  Can the devil not tempt us to sensuality when alone?  So immodesty when alone can lead us to fall into sin.

    Adam and Eve were married when they sinned in the Garden.  However their sin against God caused them to realize their nakedness in His sight, even if they didn’t realize it as a married couple.  So we can say that modesty is not ONLY for our neighbor, but also for God.  For we are temples of the Holy Ghost and must adorn our selves with the proper respect, even when alone.  

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #24 on: May 05, 2019, 11:55:48 PM »
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  • For we are temples of the Holy Ghost and must adorn our selves with the proper respect, even when alone.  
    This is the purpose of veiling in the Old Testament temple and now the chalice and tabernacle. Veiling signifies the sacred. Catholics should veil their body to signify we have the Holy Ghost dwelling within our soul.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #25 on: May 06, 2019, 12:59:45 AM »
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  • Immodest fashions and the sins of impurity it results in, probably more than any other single vice, is what has caused even formerly Christian societies to turn almost pagan or neo-pagan again. One of the worst sins of our times, which Our Lady of Fatima specially stepped down from Heaven to condemn. The Popes, especially Pius XI and Pius XII, have often deplored this sin and have set objective standards of modesty for both men and women that should be followed. Reverend Father Bernard Kunkel, who died in 1969, was a tireless crusader against immodesty.

    Quote from: Fr. Kunkel
    "True traditional Catholics, mindful of the virtues of Christian modesty and purity, refuse to be stampeded by "the crowd" into accepting the hedonistic fashions. They know that the Blessed Virgin Mary will never approve of these pagan styles which are so contrary to Christian Tradition on modesty ...

    Our Blessed Mother knew in advance the moral havoc that would follow the introduction of these unholy fashions. This is why she came personally at Fatima in 1917 to forewarn us. At the same time she gave the answer in advance to the question, "Is it a sin to follow these fashions?" To little Jacinta, aged seven, Our Lady entrusted this prophecy, which embodies her theology on the modern fashions: "Certain fashions will be introduced that will offend Our Lord very much."...

    To emphasize still more the seriousness of "certain fashions", Pope Pius XII asked the Sacred Congregation of the Council to make a forceful appeal to all Catholics, but especially those in authority, to "leave no stone unturned which can help remedy the situation." Thus, he repeated the action of his predecessor, Pius XI, who had asked this same Sacred Congregation to send out the "Special Instructions" in 1930 directing that the Roman Standards of modesty in dress (Marylike Standards) be followed.

    Pre-Requisite For the Triumph of Mary's Immaculate Heart

    How can we expect Mary's triumph and world peace in an unchastened human society? And how can the reign of purity be established as long as these "certain fashions" continue to fan furiously the flame of passion in the hearts of men? Is it not evident from Our Lady's messages at Fatima that modesty in feminine attire is a prerequisite for Her triumph and for world peace?

    Let's use our God-given faculty of reasoning. Our Lady tells us "Men must cease offending God...." In the next breath, as it were, she reminds us that one way in which God is offended "very much" is by those "certain fashions." The conclusion should be plain. These semi-nude fashions retard Mary's triumph, and are one of the chief causes bringing the world to the brink of annihilation.

    Our Lady further revealed that "More souls go to Hell because of sins of the flesh, than for any other reason." Who can count the millions of mortal sins of the flesh that are daily occasioned by immodest attire-evil thoughts and desires, touches, impure embracing, kissing, raping, etc. How can the Immaculate Heart of Mary triumph as long as "more souls go to Hell" through shameless fashions?

    Again, a Christian society would never tolerate the current flood of indecent literature, movies, and television if it had not first tolerated the public appearance of semi-nude women and girls IN THE FLESH."

    When immodesty appeared in bad magazines etc, a Christian society should have confiscated those bad books and publicly burnt them; and likewise immodesty in other media including newspapers, the internet, TV anywhere else should never have been tolerated but should have been rejected from the start; to refuse to prevent evil is to allow it to spread, and when morals are corrupted, faith will always be in danger next. But that didn't happen because, as Fr. Kunkel says, such public sins were already tolerated even in the real world already. The Saints say sins against purity often soon thereafter lead to sins against faith.

    "Listen to the Virgin Mary's pleas for "prayers and sacrifices." There can be no doubt that one of the sacrifices that is very acceptable to Our Lady is the sacrifice required to become ever more Marylike ourselves; and to promote energetically in others the "Marylike Way of Life'' which will restore Marylike chastity and modesty to the world. This will hasten true world peace, which is promised only through the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary."--Rev. Fr. Bernard Kunkel

    There's an Act of Consecration to the Immaculate Heart for Purity on the Salve Regina page we could make. If others tempt us, we should stay away entirely from bad influences. And we should avoid being a stumbling block to anyone by always dressing modestly.

    The power of sin can be overcome by prayer and by Sacramental Grace. The youth especially need constant reminders of the necessity of striving after the virtue of purity and its necessary connection with behaving and dressing modestly from their Priests.


    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #26 on: May 06, 2019, 05:17:31 AM »
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  • Modesty does not mean having to look frumpy. The neoSSPX direction on appropriate clothing I perceive as a perhaps subconscious reaction against what I may call Amish-like Puritanism that existed amongst some parents during my brief stint as a live-in teacher/house father/anything computer related graphic designer et al. And yet the inconsistency/hypocrisy of these same parents (girls wearing kilts????

    To speak yet again of hypocrisy.....said mission chapel where bears truly attends on occasion - at least to obtain the Sacraments of Confession and The Holy Eucharist - sees the priest railing against immodest dress by men and women (specifically a case of an adult server wearing jeans to a Mass where he was to serve - wherein the young gentleman was publicly admonished and refused Holy Communion. The entire episode should have been handled discretely and with I pray, greater humility. The hypocrisy layeth in the fact that the said priest does not wear his cassock, but black pants and black sports vest. 
    I sense the time will come soon that I shall be advised by the Resistance priest I know and am beholden towards,alas that we are separated by a goodly distance.

    Soon comes summer to these northerly parts, and the shedding of the garments and thus exposing way way way too much epidermis, but sporting articles that hardly veil what Monty Python oft referred to as "the naughty bits."

    I guess we most continue to teach about the beauty of modesty (ladies) and the masculine chivalric ethos as expressed in apparel.

    For the women..........



    And for what truly TradCat men should aspire towards....(I REALLY want to wear this to Mass one day! I even have chainmail coif! :) :) :) :) :) :) :incense: :incense: :incense:
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #27 on: May 06, 2019, 05:42:59 AM »
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  • WOW! That's modesty up over!
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #28 on: May 06, 2019, 06:28:09 AM »
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  • That's a charitable thought, but if they were even attempting to keep the boys and girls separate for the sake of modesty, they wouldn't have taken photos of the event.
    .
    That would be like taking a selfie in the shower and then posting it online claiming there's no issue of immodesty as no one was there!  :jester:
    Fair enough, good point. 

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: SSPX Immodesty Down Under
    « Reply #29 on: May 06, 2019, 06:48:57 AM »
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  • Obviously its to honor God in the sense of not causing other humans to stumble and such.  But if its *directly* for God, our Guardian Angel, etc. then why would this not rule out things like showering nude and such?

    I'm not trying to be difficult here, just trying to understand some of the reasoning.
    The Guardian Angel line doesn't really make sense and sounds vaguely Gnostic to me. The Apostles are often depicted as having fished topless, due to the heat and the sweat from the intensity of the work. Were their Guardian Angels scandalised? This assertion being thrown around here that modesty has nothing to do with the audience is a little strange. Yes it's uncivilised and shameless if you're just strolling around your house completely naked or just in your boxers, even if no one's around. And you could call that an issue of modesty I guess. But after the most basic level of covering up it's completely dependent on the audience. Taking your shirt off while you're overheating from hard work in the sun, your only company being other men, - there's nothing wrong with that. Doing so for no practical reason around women is obviously immodest. I personally wouldn't go around in front of women in just my boxer-shorts and a t-shirt, but why exactly would that be a problem while sleeping in my own bed? My Guardian Angel will already have to see me when I'm getting changed or in the shower. Some people even go to the ridiculous extreme of saying Guardian Angels are scandalised by babies being left naked for a moment while being changed. Ridiculous!