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Author Topic: SSPX, Fr Robinson and heretical interpretations of Scripture II  (Read 6425 times)

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Re: SSPX, Fr Robinson and heretical interpretations of Scripture II
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2018, 06:00:01 PM »
Nevertheless, the fact remains that the 1616 decree has never been officially reversed.  
Cassini identified "the 1616 decree" as the one from the Index.
The index is, by its nature, reversible.
And there is this 1820 statement stating that "no obstacles exist".
Quote
The Assessor of the Holy Office has referred the request of Giuseppe Settele, Professor of Optics and Astronomy at La Sapienza University, regarding permission to publish his work Elements of Astronomy in which he espouses the common opinion of the astronomers of our time regarding the earth’s daily and yearly motions, to His Holiness through Divine Providence, Pope Pius VII. Previously, His Holiness had referred this request to the Supreme Sacred Congregation and concurrently to the consideration of the Most Eminent and Most Reverend General Cardinal Inquisitor. His Holiness has decreed that no obstacles exist for those who sustain Copernicus’ affirmation regarding the earth’s movement in the manner in which it is affirmed today, even by Catholic authors. He has, moreover, suggested the insertion of several notations into this work, aimed at demonstrating that the above mentioned affirmation [of Copernicus], as it is has come to be understood, does not present any difficulties; difficulties that existed in times past, prior to the subsequent astronomical observations that have now occurred. [Pope Pius VII] has also recommended that the implementation [of these decisions] be given to the Cardinal Secretary of the Supreme Sacred Congregation and Master of the Sacred Apostolic Palace. He is now appointed the task of bringing to an end any concerns and criticisms regarding the printing of this book, and, at the same time, ensuring that in the future, regarding the publication of such works, permission is sought from the Cardinal Vicar whose signature will not be given without the authorization of the Superior of his Order.
http://inters.org/approval-Settele-heliocentric

This thread should really be in the geocentrism subforum, no? Fr. Robinson's book has next to nothing to do with the topic.

Re: SSPX, Fr Robinson and heretical interpretations of Scripture II
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2018, 09:18:59 PM »
Cassini identified "the 1616 decree" as the one from the Index.
The index is, by its nature, reversible.
And there is this 1820 statement stating that "no obstacles exist".http://inters.org/approval-Settele-heliocentric

This thread should really be in the geocentrism subforum, no? Fr. Robinson's book has next to nothing to do with the topic.

Olivieri through much intrigue and dishonesty convinced the Congregation of the Index to grant an imprimatur to Canon Settele, but that did not mean the Church's condemnation of heliocentrism had been rescinded.  Robert Sungenis has astutely observed, "Imprimaturs given to private books have no authority in overturning Congregational decrees approved by supreme pontiffs and/or facilitated by a canonical trial, as was the case in 1616  and 1633.  In face of the fact that the permission initially given to Galileo's Dialogo was later rescinded by the 1633 magistrerium because it found the imprimatur was issued under false pretenses, makes the Settele imprimatur more an anomaly than a precedent.  IF it is found that the Settele imprimatur was granted under false pretenses, it can as easily be rescinded.  [There is substantial docuмentation showing that the Settele imprimatur was indeed granted under false pretenses.]  In addition, Copernicus Zuniga, Foscarini, Kepler and Galileo remained on the Index.  Hence the Settele affair proved only one thing, namely that a high-placed cleric could convince his peers with pretentious scientific claims what neither he nor they could prove since the science of cosmology was still in its infancy.  As we noted in the case of Bradley versus Airy, science would not mature nearly enough to shed sufficient light on Oliveieri's claims until long after he and his contemporaries had died.   And when it shed its light, it would should that Oliveieri's claims were entirely fallacious.  As for Pius Vii's role in the Settele affair, although there are various accounts that, after receiving Olivieri's report, he helped smooth the pathway for Settele to obtain the imprimatur, no docuмent exists containing a quote directly from Pius VII endorsing either Settele or heliocentrism.  And there is no docuмent concerning the Settele affair that has the signature of Pius VII.  As noted previously, the only thing Pius VII did was 'wave his hand in disdain.'"


Re: SSPX, Fr Robinson and heretical interpretations of Scripture II
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2018, 12:04:19 AM »
In addition, Copernicus Zuniga, Foscarini, Kepler and Galileo remained on the Index.  
First, following the 1820 events, anything about Copernicus was removed from the index by 1835. Kepler, at least, was also removed by 1835. Galileo's works had been published with permission sometime in the 1700s.

Second, I think the claim the imprimatur didn't change doctrine misses the point. Look at the part I bolded: "No obstacles exist". That's a general statement, not specific to one book, and with at least the authority of the 1616 statement of the Index.


Re: SSPX, Fr Robinson and heretical interpretations of Scripture II
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2018, 03:05:23 AM »
First, following the 1820 events, anything about Copernicus was removed from the index by 1835. Kepler, at least, was also removed by 1835. Galileo's works had been published with permission sometime in the 1700s.

Second, I think the claim the imprimatur didn't change doctrine misses the point. Look at the part I bolded: "No obstacles exist". That's a general statement, not specific to one book, and with at least the authority of the 1616 statement of the Index.

If we were to step back and look at this from a bottom line  perspective so to speak I think it would be most wise to compare how the 1616 decree and the 1820 imprimatur compared by way of how they came about and what they stood for.

The 1616 decree came about in a fairly straight forward way; everything above board.  The 1820 imprimatur was achieved after much skullduggery and false pretenses.  Anyone familiar with the history could not deny this -- at least not honestly!

The 1616 decree stood for an affirmation of the Fathers and the Medievals, an affirmation of Sacred Scripture, and finally an affirmation of tradition.  The 1820 imprimatur, on the other hand, stood for a novelty and a completely unproven one at that.

Aside from the above, it is good to note that geocentrism was a clearly taught doctrine of the Catholic Church for many centuries.  Are we to believe that for all that time generations after generations after generations of Catholics were mislead by the teaching of the Church on this subject?

The Catholic Church does not err in matters of doctrine.  If you think otherwise please advise me and in doing so please advise me of one instance in 2,000 plus years of history that the Church has reversed herself on not praxis, but actual doctrine.

Re: SSPX, Fr Robinson and heretical interpretations of Scripture II
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2018, 08:20:45 AM »
Cassini identified "the 1616 decree" as the one from the Index.
The index is, by its nature, reversible.
And there is this 1820 statement stating that "no obstacles exist".

Quote
Quote
The Assessor of the Holy Office has referred the request of Giuseppe Settele, Professor of Optics and Astronomy at La Sapienza University, regarding permission to publish his work Elements of Astronomy in which he espouses the common opinion of the astronomers of our time regarding the earth’s daily and yearly motions, to His Holiness through Divine Providence, Pope Pius VII. Previously, His Holiness had referred this request to the Supreme Sacred Congregation and concurrently to the consideration of the Most Eminent and Most Reverend General Cardinal Inquisitor. His Holiness has decreed that no obstacles exist for those who sustain Copernicus’ affirmation regarding the earth’s movement in the manner in which it is affirmed today, even by Catholic authors. He has, moreover, suggested the insertion of several notations into this work, aimed at demonstrating that the above mentioned affirmation [of Copernicus], as it is has come to be understood, does not present any difficulties; difficulties that existed in times past, prior to the subsequent astronomical observations that have now occurred. [Pope Pius VII] has also recommended that the implementation [of these decisions] be given to the Cardinal Secretary of the Supreme Sacred Congregation and Master of the Sacred Apostolic Palace. He is now appointed the task of bringing to an end any concerns and criticisms regarding the printing of this book, and, at the same time, ensuring that in the future, regarding the publication of such works, permission is sought from the Cardinal Vicar whose signature will not be given without the authorization of the Superior of his Order.
This thread should really be in the geocentrism subforum, no? Fr. Robinson's book has next to nothing to do with the topic.

Fr Robinson is a SSPX priest. Angelus Press that promote his book as orthodox is also SSPX. Finally on the SSPX website it promotes the idea that all can ignore the 1616 decree and infer Catholiocs are allowed to accept a heliocentric reading of Scripture. For me then, this subject is exactly where it belongs.

Interesting Stanley You present a decree from the Holy Office as papal and binding, yet you and history reject the 1616 decree as papal and binding. Surely if one is binding then also the other. Can we agree first on this? Now note also 'His Holiness had referred this request to the Supreme Sacred Congregation and concurrently to the consideration of the Most Eminent and Most Reverend General Cardinal Inquisitor.' On both occassions the two popes asked the Holy Office to investigate certain questions and they then approved their findings. In 1616 the Pope asked them to examine the two proposals and found the first as Formal heresy and the second as contrary to the faith. In 1820, the Pope asked the consultors to examine why the heliocentric books were put on the Index. A Fr Olivieri wrote up his report and the Holy Office approved of it. The Pope was then given it for approval. In this case however a Fr Anfossi also submitted a report that contradicted Fr Olivieri's. But Olivieri was the head man at the time and carrieed more weight. Pius VII accepted Olivieri's and decreed the findings as above.

Yes, OK, I know what you are going to say next, if we accept the above, then the 1820 binding decree eliminates the 1616 binding decree. But does it?

Read the 1820 decree again, and you will see it refers to heliocentric books. But note these books are conditional, they are heliocentric books that describe 'the earth’s movement in the manner in which it is affirmed today, even by Catholic authors.' Now why do you think this condition was mentioned in the decree? Was there a difference in Copernican books in 1820 to those of 1616? Was the heliocentrism of 1616 different to that of 1820?

As I said before, only recently have the reports of Fr Anfossi and Fr Olivieri been found, translated and made public in Finocchiaro's Retrying Galileo. His version, accepted by the Pope, was that the heliocentrism of 1616 had a violent Earth but in 1820 they knew a moving Earth was not prone to violence. He agreed the 1616 decree was papal and binding but that it was a violent heliocentrism. Now that science knew heliocentrism was not violent, Olivieri said, the new heliocentrism was no longer heretical and the pope could allow heliocentric books be read by Catholics and the last remaining books on the Index be removed. And that is why the 1820 decree qualified the kind of heliocentrism that was allowed, the one .in which it is affirmed today' be allowed.

So that is how Olivieri and Pope Pius VII avoided the problem of an infallible papal decree of 1616 which conceding to the heliocentrism promoted by nearly all philosophers since Newton's time. As far as they were concerned, they managed to save the Church's infallibility while at the same time allow the flock to believe in a non-heretical heliocentrism, one that the world had come to accept as scientifically proven.

Olivieri's brilliant tactics saved the dogma of infallibility but at a price. The fact that the 1616 records of the 1616 decree had been removed by Napoleon at the time, few could contradict Olivieri's version of the 1616 decree. What was defined as formal heresy contrary to Scripture was that the sun is fixed which has nothing to do with a violent earth. Moreover, if anyone read Copernicus's and Galileo's books they would find both denying their heliocentrism had a violent Earth. In other words, the 1820 decree was based on an an invention. But here again witness God protecting his 'infallibility' given to His Church. Pope Pius VII did not contradict the 1616 decree but actually abided by it. His decree concerned only allowing what he beliecved to be non-heretical  Heliocentric books to be read by the flock. Pope Paul VI in his time would remove the Index altogether allowing the flock to read any heretical book they liked. Meanwhile the heresies in them, including that of 1616, remained heresies.

In the outside world of course, few knew the details I have researched above. Accordingly they had to invent as many excuses as to why the 1820 decree allowed heliocentrism to be read. Attacks on the infallibility of the 1616 decree was essential, and the SSPX are continuing to prevent the truth to emerge.