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Author Topic: SSPX Facemask Order in Minnesota  (Read 4373 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Re: SSPX Facemask Order in Minnesota
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2020, 09:13:06 AM »
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  • We must obey lawful authority in everything but sin. Period. End of story
    = Banezian wears a mask and thinks everyone should wear one.

    No surprise there, for Banezian is Poche on steroids, almost a 5 to1 ratio of negative.

    Poche  +1132/-4485
    Banezian  +165/-786

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: SSPX Facemask Order in Minnesota
    « Reply #31 on: July 28, 2020, 09:17:45 PM »
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  • Minnesota where it was burnt down by many who weren’t wearing masks or social distancing.  Churches burnt down or vandalized and even sspx goes along with communist mandates. 

    Yes.  There are many who have not worn masks because of religious or medical reasons. 

    It’s time for traditional Catholics to be traditional Catholics instead of lukewarm Catholics. 
    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Facemask Order in Minnesota
    « Reply #32 on: July 29, 2020, 10:25:35 AM »
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  • What Banezian wrote is quite correct. If by nothing else this ought to be screamingly obvious due to mere fact that Johnson rejects it.

    I presume no one here would object to the statement “There are only two sexes”, yet using Johnson’s logic he would have to object since there exists the condition of Intersex. Similarly he would have to object to the statement “Humans have ten toes” since there are humans are born with less than ten toes. Why don’t we say “humans have between zero and ten toes”? Because we don’t put error, abnormality and exceptions on the same level as truth, normality and what is commonplace.

    Johnson’s trick is to turn such statements as Banezian’s into absolute ones, when, in reality, there are very few absolutes. To give a few examples: the rules on driving down a one-way street are suspended for a fire truck needing to attend to a fire. ‘Honour thy father and thy mother’ doesn’t hold for the child whose father asks him to steal, and while ‘Thou shalt not kill’ we know in times of conflict and self defence it is permissible. Why didn’t God say to Moses “Thou shalt not kill except under the following conditions …”? This is a necessary question *if* we accept Johnson’s perverse rationality.

    Johnson’s next trick is to puff up his grievance into an act of tyranny by the State thereby justifying his (and others) rebellion. The fact is this: it IS within the power of the civil authority (a duty even) to care for the common good – in this case to control a pandemic – and to put in place measures to achieve this. The use of face masks is one measure, but this infringes on Johnson’s own rights of man. If the idiot had bothered to read the abstract of the Aquinas article he promotes, he would have read “… liberty and life (basic individual rights) are subordinate to or even sacrificed for the supposed public good.”  

    Next Johnson encourages lying; the pretense of having a medical exemption. Not only that, he applauds the use of the law to avoid wearing a mask. But wait a minute, did he not condemn Fr. Robinson for using the law to open the Church’s in New Jersey? The hypocrisy of this man is breathtaking.

    It’s not surprising that the Menzingen shill should make an appearance in this thread: After all, the SSPX is basically endorsing his position.

    But let’s troubleshoot it a bit:

    1) His first argument is that there are exceptions, and exceptions do not disprove the rule.  Agreed.  But what he misses, is that the post by Banezian which he is defending admits of no exceptions.  He wants to make Banezian say something other than he has: That we do NOT have to obey in all that is not sinful.  

    Banezian says exactly the opposite.

    Consequently, the shill’s dishonest attempt to morph Banezian’s argument implicitly acknowledges that in fact, it is erroneous.

    You see, it is Banezian who made the absolutist statement, and it is I who pointed out the exceptions to obedience (eg., tyranny, detrimental to the common good, etc.).

    2) Next, the shill wants to declare the state’s right to issue mask mandates is not synonymous with an act of tyranny, because such mandates fall within its sphere of competence.

    Agreed!

    But what both Banezian and the shill miss (and desire you to miss), is that this mandate is based on a lie/hoax:

    On the one hand, we are not talking about Ebola virus, but a malady which is not mortal to 99.997% of the population who contract it, and on the other hand, is backed by no credible study declaring their usefulness and effectiveness in preventing COVID19 transmission (the boxes of cloth medical masks say this right on the box), but there are many studies testifying to their ineffectiveness.

    In other words, there is neither a serious danger which could justify such a measure, nor any scientific evidence demonstrating a benefit even to that small minority which could allegedly benefit from the mandate.

    3) At least so far as the Minnesota Executive Order mandating mask use in public spaces is concerned, it is based on the Governor’s Emergency Powers legislation, which did not envisage application to an alleged healthcare crisis, but for natural disasters and civil unrest.  The Governor is currently being sued by a state representative for his abuse of these powers, which is the essence of tyranny:

    The mandate lacks a legal basis in the legislation upon which it is allegedly founded.

    4) As for the accusation of hypocrisy for encouraging resistance to the mandate by claiming medical exemption, I would first note the illegitimacy (ie., legality) of the mandate itself; that aside from legitimacy is the fact it is based on a lie (it will prevent COVID19 transmission), and that every mask wearer suffers diminished blood oxygen and carbon dioxide toxicity.

    So there is actually no lie in claiming a medical condition at all.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Facemask Order in Minnesota
    « Reply #33 on: July 29, 2020, 11:47:38 AM »
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  • All already refuted above.

    Ps: As regards the Fr. Robinson bit, the distinction is that in the case of the Minnesota mask mandate, it is no law at all, as the governor clearly exceeded his competence in issuing it (and in consequence, the Anoka County Sheriff -the 3rd most populated county in Minnesota- has even declared his intention not to enforce it, stating it is not a law enforcement issue, which backs my contention, as he could not refuse as a matter of official departmental policy, to enforce a legitimate law).

    “A law which is not enforceable is no law at all.” -St Thomas Aquinas

    Consequently, there is no contradiction.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline claudel

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    Re: SSPX Facemask Order in Minnesota
    « Reply #34 on: July 29, 2020, 03:54:48 PM »
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  • Quote

    The fact is this: it IS within the power of the civil authority (a duty even) to care for the common good – in this case to control a pandemic – and to put in place measures to achieve this. The use of face masks is one measure …

    One need not disagree with the quoted sentiment, certainly not with the thesis its central clause advances, to dispute whether the examples offered as illustrations are appropriate or meritorious. I contend that they are not.

    1) "in this case to control a pandemic": As Knut Wittkowski said in several lengthy video interviews back in March, every flu virus, indeed every seasonal cold bug, is a pandemic. What justifies the societal lockdown that this kindergarten-level pandemic has been the excuse for? Answer: Ultimately, nothing at all. Official US and EU morbidity statistics show that rates and raw numbers of deaths during the past six months have been commmensurate with those for the same calendar period during the past three years. What precisely is extraordinarily dangerous about a flu virus that doesn't kill more people than are statistically certain to die anyway?

    2) "The use of face masks is one measure": As even the civil authorities, the political profiteers, and their media shills all already admit that masks of the sort the general public is being asked or required to use do not provide any measurable protection against transmission of any microbe of the coronavirus type, the requirement that face masks be worn must ipso facto be meant to serve quite another purpose than the one claimed. In short, they are lying about something of paramount significance. Thus, without in any way disputing the gentleman's assertion that it is shameful and unjustifiable to advocate the use of lies, there is no harm in recalling what seven-year-olds predictably say (frequently truthfully) to parents about squabbles with five-year-old siblings: "He started it!"

    3) There is rather more to be said anent asserting the medical exemption from using a mask. The claimer might readily avoid sin by proper formation of his or her conscience. It has been widely demonstrated—among other places, in one of the fifty or so videos that RomanCatholic1953 links to every day—that within two minutes of donning a mask, the oxygen content available to the wearer drops to roughly 17 percent, the atmospheric norm being about 21 percent. Federal regulations require that mines, factories, and similar business enterprises maintain an ambient-air oxygen content of 19 percent. If the oxygen content falls below that level, the atmosphere is deemed unsafe to work in, and all work must cease until the minimal level is restored. Thus, by forming one's conscience along legally informed and morally unimpugnable scientific lines, every American going about his daily affairs is entitled to claim a medical exemption from mask-wearing. QED.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Facemask Order in Minnesota
    « Reply #35 on: July 31, 2020, 09:45:58 AM »
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  • This Minnesota criminal defense attorney also contends the Minnesota mask mandate is illegal and unenforceable:

    https://gallagherdefense.com/2020/07/26/govs-mn-mask-mandate-illegal/



    Why Gov’s Minnesota Mask Mandate Order Is Illegal, Unenforceable

    The Governor is the head of the executive branch of government; but is not a King.  So, the Governor only has the powers delegated to him by law, and limited by law.  Now that the Minnesota Governor “ordered” a mask mandate, with enforcement penalties, we may ask: “Is that ‘order’ lawful?  Is it enforceable?”  As we show here, the answer is “No, the Governor’s Minnesota mask mandate is illegal, unenforceable.”
    But first, let’s set aside the public policy argumentsabout whether mask-wearing is a good or bad idea.  Here our focus is solely upon the current state of the law in Minnesota.  
    Remember though, the legislature and Governor can easily change Minnesota Statutes in the future, should they choose.
    The core problem the Governor’s Minnesota mask mandate executive order; is that it directly conflicts with Minnesota’s Statute making wearing a mask in public a misdemeanor crime.  
    So let’s take a look first at Minnesota’s current mask crime law.
    Minnesota’s Mask Crime Statute
    Wearing a mask in public is a crime under Minnesota law.  
    And like all crimes, a statute makes mask wearing a criminal act.  See our article for a full discussion of the Minnesota mask crime statute.  
    The current version does contain an exception for medical “treatment.”  But mask-wearing to prevent contagion; is not medical “treatment” under medical, legal or common definitions.  And the Governor’s administrative order concedes this, at page thirteen, as we discuss below.
    Minnesota mask mandate admin order
    The Governor’s Minnesota Mask Mandate
    On July 22, 2020, Minnesota’s Governor signed Executive Order 20-81:  Requiring Minnesotans to Wear a Face Covering in Certain Settings to Prevent the Spread of COVID-19.”
    At 16 pages, it is lengthy.  But it generally asserts: “Minnesotans must wear a face covering in indoor businesses and indoor public settings.” (Page three.)
    The enforcement provisions:

    Quote
    “Any individual [adult, non-student] who willfully violates this Executive Order is guilty of a petty misdemeanor and upon conviction must be punished by a fine not to exceed $100.”

    And

    Quote
    “Any business owner, manager, or supervisor who fails to comply with this Executive Order is guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction must be punished by a fine not to exceed $1,000, or by imprisonment for not more than 90 days.”

    So the Governor’s Minnesota mask mandate claims a petty misdemeanor violation for most individuals; and a misdemeanor crime for business owners and employees, who do not comply.
    But what legal authority, does this Administrative Order have?
    Legal Basis for Governor’s Administrative Order
    Remember the three branches of government: the legislative, the executive and the judicial?  The People created them and delegated limited powers of government; in the United States and the Minnesota Constitutions.
    So the Constitution is the highest law of the land.  Any lesser forms of law that contradict the Constitution are void, and unenforceable; regardless of what they claim.  
    Only through the Constitution, we authorize the legislative branch of government to create laws in the form of statutes.  These statutes, though inferior to the Constitution; are superior to the Administrative Rules, Regulations and Orders of the Governor’s executive branch.
    And finally, the executive branch can create administrative Rules and Orders; but only to the extent delegated by the legislature by statute.  So these administrative Rules and Orders may not conflict with the higher forms of law, the Constitution and the Statutes.  And if they do, the administrative Rules and Orders are unenforceable.
    This includes the Governor’s Minnesota mask mandate, just another administrative order.
    Illegal mask mandate: an administrative order
    Minnesota’s Statutory Delegation of Emergency Powers    
    Is the Governor’s Minnesota mask mandate authorized by law?  First, let’s look at the legal authority the Governor claims in the administrative order.
    It explicitly cites, on page two, Minnesota Statutes 2019, §12.02 and §12.21, subdivision 3(7).  But neither gives the Governor the power to override Minnesota Statutes.
    Then, on page three, the administrative order paraphrases Minnesota Statutes §12.32:

    Quote
    “such orders and rules have the force and effect of law during the peacetime emergency. Any inconsistent rules or ordinances of any agency or political subdivision of the state are suspended during the pendency of the emergency.”

    Notice the language: “inconsistent rules or ordinances of any agency or political subdivision of the state.”  
    So, the statute does not authorize the Governor to contradict Minnesota Statutes; but only administrative rules; and ordinances of political subdivisions of the State.
    And, “Rules and ordinances of any agency or political subdivision of the state” are inferior to State Statutes and the Minnesota and U.S. Constitutions.
    As the Minnesota Supreme Court notes:

    Quote
    “While ‘administrative agencies may adopt regulations to implement or make specific the language of a statute, they cannot adopt a conflicting rule.'”

    So, the Governor has no lawful basis to “order” people to commit crimes, like wear a mask in public.
    The Administrative Order Explicitly Cites the Mask Crime Statute
    On page thirteen, the Governor’s administrative order (Minnesota mask mandate) specifically mentions the Minnesota Mask Crime Statute:

    Quote
    “Wearing a face covering in compliance with this Executive Order or local ordinances, rules, or orders is not a violation of Minnesota Statutes 2019, section 609.735.”

    This concedes that the medical “treatment”exception in the Mask Crime Statute does not apply to mask-wearing to prevent contagion.  
    And this concedes that the administrative order is in direct conflict with the Minnesota Mask Crime statute.
    Their strategy appears to provide a defense to criminal prosecution under Minnesota’s Mask Crime law, under the administrative order.
    The flaw in that strategy is that any administrative order is inferior law to any statute.  And public mask-wearing remains a crime under the Minnesota Mask Crime Statute.  Moreover, that statute has not been repealed.
    As a result, we have an invalid executive order;“requiring” people to commit an act which Minnesota Statutes make a crime.
    So, it’s still a crime to wear a mask in a public place.  And the administrative order can’t and doesn’t change that.
    Can You Blame a Governor for Trying?
    And at the end of the administrative order, they concede that their Minnesota mask mandate admin order may be illegal:

    Quote
    “A [judicial] determination that any provision of this Executive Order is invalid will not affect the enforceability of any other provision of this Executive Order. Rather, the invalid provision will be modified to the extent necessary so that it is enforceable.”

    Legislative Intent
    The Coronavirus response began early in the 2020 Minnesota legislative session.
    And despite widespread discussion of the Minnesota Mask Crime Statute, no legislator attempted to amend it.
    Moreover, since the legislature’s adjournment, the Governor reconvened the legislature, twice. They could have easily repealed the Minnesota Mask Crime Statute. But they chose not to.
    Instead, so far the legislature still chooses to continue the public mask-wearing crime statute; even during the COVID response of 2020.
    Conclusion
    Much of the administrative order discusses public policy issues.  This article, however, does not. We take no position here on: (1) whether masks are a good or bad idea for any particular person; or (2) whether the government could enact a mask mandate properly through legislation. Rather, this is a purely legal analysis, pointing out current Minnesota law.
    And to the extent that the administrative orderclaims a legal basis to “mandate” masks and create penalties for non-compliance; the Minnesota mask mandate is illegal and unenforceable. It’s basic legal flaws are:

    • The administrative order attempts to assert authority not-delegated by statute.
    • And the administrative order contradicts and conflicts with a statute (the Mask Crime Statute).

    Remember, our focus here is solely upon the penalty provisions of the administrative order, the petty misdemeanor and misdemeanor charges. As we have shown, those are illegal and unenforceable.
    Why does the admin order assert a non-business, individual penalty, so far just a petty misdemeanorfine? Is there some strategy behind that choice?
    Police, Arrest, Conviction, Jail?
    But if any person, business-related or not, should face criminal or petty misdemeanor charges under this administrative order; their defense should prevail in court, to avoid conviction and jail. Here we provide the legal basis for that defense.
    And for persons facing business-related charges;another defense is avoidance of aiding, abetting, encouraging or conspiring with others to commit the crime of public mask wearing.
    About the Author

    Attorney Thomas C. Gallagher is a criminal defense lawyer in Minneapolis with over three decades experience.
    He continues to help people during the COVID response.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SAP1571

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    Re: SSPX Facemask Order in Minnesota
    « Reply #36 on: August 27, 2020, 12:14:19 PM »
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  • Dominicans from Avrille also mandated face-masks and social distancing in the end of May:
    http://www.dominicainsavrille.fr/reprise-des-messes/

    I don't know whether the order is still active, nor do I necessary think that it is a bad thing (there isn't a consensus in scientific community regarding the danger of the virus or benefits of face-masks (I have researched a bit from both sides and I don't think that it is as simple as some project) and superiors are right to make their own prudential judgement).
    Anyways, if You do not respect SSPX priests as authorities whose judgement we should respect (even if we privately disagree with it), it seems that You should at least consider the example I gave from Avrille... 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Facemask Order in Minnesota
    « Reply #37 on: August 27, 2020, 12:39:13 PM »
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  • Dominicans from Avrille also mandated face-masks and social distancing in the end of May:
    http://www.dominicainsavrille.fr/reprise-des-messes/

    I don't know whether the order is still active, nor do I necessary think that it is a bad thing (there isn't a consensus in scientific community regarding the danger of the virus or benefits of face-masks (I have researched a bit from both sides and I don't think that it is as simple as some project) and superiors are right to make their own prudential judgement).
    Anyways, if You do not respect SSPX priests as authorities whose judgement we should respect (even if we privately disagree with it), it seems that You should at least consider the example I gave from Avrille...

    They posted the sign on the door to keep the government happy, but nobody inside actually wore masks.

    The SSPX is doing the same thing in many places (to their credit).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Facemask Order in Minnesota
    « Reply #38 on: August 27, 2020, 04:07:51 PM »
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  • They posted the sign on the door to keep the government happy, but nobody inside actually wore masks.

    The SSPX is doing the same thing in many places (to their credit).

    Yes, ditto for SSPX; I went to Our Lady of Sorrows in Girard, OH the past couple of weekends for their 4PM Mass.  I had a mask in my pocket just in case because of the SSPX policy, but when I walked inside NOBODY, not a single person, had one on, and half that chapel consists of elderly people.  Ohio's governor has mandated masks in public, but the SSPX seems to be ignoring it.  So it's to their credit also.

    I almost felt like some of those women with veils.  They take one in their purse and then decide, based on what they see, whether they want to put it on.   :laugh1:

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Facemask Order in Minnesota
    « Reply #39 on: August 27, 2020, 04:09:37 PM »
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  • You know, in Ohio, stores are doing the same thing.  They put the signs up but don't enforce anything.  They've decided that it's not their job to enforce this thing ... and even to potentially put their employees at risk from confronting those who don't wear masks.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: SSPX Facemask Order in Minnesota
    « Reply #40 on: August 28, 2020, 12:38:37 AM »
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  • //“A law which is not enforceable is no law at all.” -St Thomas Aquinas//

    I don't agree with Banezien on this whole mask thing.  The position that we have to obey just any command, no matter how ridiculous, so long as its not per se sinful, has always seemed ridiculous to me.

    Between this quote from Aquinas, the fact that these are generally speaking made up executive orders rather than "laws", and that these commands have nothing to do with "rewarding good and punishing evil", I could see several good reasons to be less than completely compliant here.


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: SSPX Facemask Order in Minnesota
    « Reply #41 on: August 28, 2020, 12:39:04 AM »
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  • We must obey lawful authority in everything but sin. Period. End of story
    I don't see how this is "lawful".

    Offline SAP1571

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    Re: SSPX Facemask Order in Minnesota
    « Reply #42 on: August 30, 2020, 09:35:41 AM »
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  • I don't agree with Banezien on this whole mask thing.  The position that we have to obey just any command, no matter how ridiculous, so long as its not per se sinful, has always seemed ridiculous to me.
    You are right, ridiculous laws don't have to be obeyed (unless the scandal from disobedience would be greater problem than the obedience).
    I am, however, even after reading criticisms of face-masks as ineffective, not sure that the order to wear ones in stores is ridiculous, since I found the articles which represent other side at least equally convincing, if not even more convincing. 

    You might say that I am dumb and this might very well be the truth. But, dumb or not, I am not excused for not wearing one, since I, even after reading both sides, do not find anti-masking one convincing (except by the "non-enforceable order" argument, though it seems to me that, though it now isn't, in the future it might be enforced by simply fining those who don't wear them). 

    The Church area seems, however, exempt from secular jurisdiction, though church authorities have the right to impose it in the same time as the civil ones to avoid "sticking out".

    Offline cosmas

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    Re: SSPX Facemask Order in Minnesota
    « Reply #43 on: August 30, 2020, 03:35:01 PM »
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  • Everyone could go to Mass without a mask and just tell anyone that asks " we are having a peaceful protest " because they seem to have universal exemptions.

    Offline sedevacantist3

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    Re: SSPX Facemask Order in Minnesota
    « Reply #44 on: August 30, 2020, 04:13:15 PM »
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  • At my chapel no mask required, barely anyone wears one inside. In Canada