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Author Topic: SSPX Expanding NFP?  (Read 3209 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: SSPX Expanding NFP?
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2019, 12:35:14 AM »
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  • Is stress a "grave reason"?
    Sufficent levels of stress theoretically could be.  It would probably have to be more than sheer inconvenience though.  Probably something more like threat of a nervous breakdown, or things like that.


    Offline cosmas

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    Re: SSPX Expanding NFP?
    « Reply #16 on: November 03, 2019, 06:42:28 AM »
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  • Slippery Slope to Catholic Contraception !


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Expanding NFP?
    « Reply #17 on: November 03, 2019, 06:57:34 AM »
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  • Sufficent levels of stress theoretically could be.

    So this is entirely subjective, or are there objective criteria?

    If having more children does in fact pose a serious issue, then abstinence is a possibility.  People act as if having sɛҳuąƖ intercourse is some inalienable God-given right.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Expanding NFP?
    « Reply #18 on: November 03, 2019, 07:17:26 AM »
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  • Someone sent me this interesting email:

     
    “Hi Sean:
     
    I took part in a pretty discouraging discussion several years ago with maybe a dozen alumnae from my SSPX-affiliated school. I was nearly alone of those who took part who knew the “old” rules: 1) with the guidance of the priest 2) for *grave* reasons, aka life or death and 3) for no more than 2 years. 
     
    Nearly all of the girls who took part, especially the younger ones,  had been taught by SSPX priests in a variety of parishes that as long as the spouses agree, NFP could be used for reasons of health, spacing and finances. But this was quite vague. Let’s just say the *grave reason* had been ratcheted all the way down to serious or even moderate inconvenience. Some were even encouraged to space 2-3 years just because. They said they were encouraged not to have them too closely so they could have the time and finances to dedicate to each child. (Is this not the definition of worldly “prudence” and worldly reasons for contraception??) But they did not recognize it as such. And they’ve been taught all their lives to listen to SSPX priests. So that’s what they are doing and see absolutely nothing wrong with it. They even seemed happy to accept more relaxed guidelines as being more enlightened. One family said they’ve had lively conversations between the parents, who had been taught the old rules, and themselves who were now marrying and being taught much more relaxed guidelines. There was a consensus of a shift from older priests and generations to younger priests and generations. Not only younger priests, but European priests as well, seem to be teaching the more relaxed ways. Americans tend to be more Puritanistic therefore too rigid with the rules was the rationalization.
     
    I can’t even tell you some of the reasons that some of the girls gave as examples because I couldn’t bear the ridicule they would get, even if it’s anonymous. They’ve been led to believe it’s all good. And even noble! To abstain for the good of their children who are already living! Such a sacrifice! After all, having too many children puts their children’s souls at risk if they can’t be raised properly.
     
    They make it sound good, but when you brush away the surface arguments, the principle at the root is rotten. And deeply materialistic. The idea of relying Divine Providence was not outright dismissed but was seen as borderline dangerous because it’s not prudent. That Providence stuff gets overdone by people who are too zealous. Those people ruin their children. So we have to do both, rely on Providence but also be prudent (as if they are at odds!) And we live in a different time, the demands of society etc.. etc… All the rationalizations were front and center. I wish I were exaggerating. It was a little heartbreaking.
     
    Before this discussion, I had had another discussion with someone from St Mary’s who had been told they could practice NFP for reasons of their own as long as she and her husband were in agreement. There was no need to consult a priest. I clarified with her because I thought maybe I misheard her. Then I distinctly remember thinking maybe she misunderstood the priest. I thought that to myself as a way of giving her the benefit of the doubt since I knew their reason for NFP at the time and it was far from life or death. It was about 3 years later that this discussion with the alumnae opened my eyes and I realized this is systemic and the first lady had not been mistaken at all. Her priest had really taught her that.
     
    The NFP rot is there. We can’t see it fully because who goes around discussing this topic with random parishioners to ask what their priests are telling them?! But the few times I have had the discussion, I’ve seen it. And it seems fully sanctioned. The only reason I am able to see it is because I have known people who were NO and who spaced using NFP for all those same reasons. When they became traditional many years ago, NFP (as a rule) went out the window and so did all the thinly-veiled worldly reasons for it. They were encouraged to fling themselves entirely upon the mercy of Divine Providence. So when I see these girls now taking a step back to the NO attitudes, I fully recognize it for what it is. All the Catholic spin and vocabulary in the world doesn’t change the underlying idea: It’s much classier not to have too many children.  
     
    Few people are being taught to be fools for Christ anymore. If we are weaker than previous generations it is only because we want to be. Can you imagine the large families of old having a quarter of the comfort, convenience, medical care and goods that we have? How happy they would be? But somehow we use it all as an excuse to have smaller families. It’s amazing.  
     
    Hope you are all well!”
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: SSPX Expanding NFP?
    « Reply #19 on: November 03, 2019, 09:30:58 AM »
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  • So this is entirely subjective, or are there objective criteria?

    If having more children does in fact pose a serious issue, then abstinence is a possibility.  People act as if having sɛҳuąƖ intercourse is some inalienable God-given right.
    That’s a good question.  It just seems silly to categorically reject stress as a reason, if reasons exist.  Nervous breakdowns can be a thing.  Now could that be abused?  Oh yes.

    Isn’t NFP in essence timed abstinence though?  I don’t see why, assuming such circuмstances existed, you’d be obliged to abstain during less fertile periods.  Obviously artificial contraception is always grave matter.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: SSPX Expanding NFP?
    « Reply #20 on: November 03, 2019, 09:38:23 AM »
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  • Someone sent me this interesting email:

     
    “Hi Sean:
     
    I took part in a pretty discouraging discussion several years ago with maybe a dozen alumnae from my SSPX-affiliated school. I was nearly alone of those who took part who knew the “old” rules: 1) with the guidance of the priest 2) for *grave* reasons, aka life or death and 3) for no more than 2 years.
     
    Nearly all of the girls who took part, especially the younger ones,  had been taught by SSPX priests in a variety of parishes that as long as the spouses agree, NFP could be used for reasons of health, spacing and finances. But this was quite vague. 
    Vatican II punishment upon the lukewarm extends to any lukewarm Catholic whether SSPX, Sede, Independent, or Novus ordo indult
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline SusanneT

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    Re: SSPX Expanding NFP?
    « Reply #21 on: November 03, 2019, 06:07:06 PM »
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  • So this is entirely subjective, or are there objective criteria?

    If having more children does in fact pose a serious issue, then abstinence is a possibility.  People act as if having sɛҳuąƖ intercourse is some inalienable God-given right.
    So well said.  Please traditionalist men, do not accept the feminist perversion which is birth control.  

    Offline tdrev123

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    Re: SSPX Expanding NFP?
    « Reply #22 on: November 03, 2019, 07:11:03 PM »
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  • http://archives.sspx.org/against_sound_bites/rhythm_unhappy_compromise.htm

    This is the 2003 SSPX.  NFP is destroyed in theory and logic by a priest who believes in NFP.  


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Expanding NFP?
    « Reply #23 on: November 03, 2019, 07:51:10 PM »
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  • Isn’t NFP in essence timed abstinence though?

    No, it's not the same thing, not formally, since it entails attempting to enjoy the secondary ends of marital relations while excluding the primary ... that sinful subordination of the primary end to the secondary ends condemned by Pius XI.  This is why various forces at Vatican II attempted to elevate the secondary ends to co-primary ends.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Expanding NFP?
    « Reply #24 on: November 03, 2019, 07:54:05 PM »
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  • Lefebvre condemns Fr. Couture/neoSSPX (wish I would have put this in my book):

    “Cast away, I beg of you, anything which impedes children from entering your family. There is no greater gift that the Good God can bestow upon your hearths than to have many children. Have big families. it is the glory of the Catholic Church—the large family! It has been so in Canada, it has been so in Holland, it has been so in Switzerland and it has been so in France—everywhere the large family was the joy and prosperity of the Church. There are that many more chosen souls for heaven! Therefore do not limit, I beg you, the gifts of God; do not listen to these abominable slogans which destroy the family, which ruin health, which ruin the household, and provoke divorce.“
    https://sspx.org/en/marriage-from-writings-of-archbishop-lefebvre

    Guess Fr. Couture and the neoSSPX NFP brigade considered Lefebvre imprudent?

    Ps: In just the couple months since my book was published, we have seen the SSPX promoting NFP, having indult priests saying Mass in their African chapels, and a diocesan priest notorious for his group porn addiction therapy sessions and theology of the body, who believes we should invite the Lord to view our impure thoughts with us, be invited to advise SSPX faithful.

    Anyone know how to post a kamikaze GIF?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Expanding NFP?
    « Reply #25 on: November 04, 2019, 07:09:41 AM »
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  • Nor should one think that the opinions of Fr. Couture are isolated, and unreflective of the “esprit d’corps” of the neoSSPX:

    -There was the story several years ago (in the “Letter of 37 Priests of the French District?”) which references a conference or retreat attended by Bishop Fellay, in which the retreat master opined that in the modern world it was no longer practical to have more than 5-6 children;

    -There was the opinion of Fr. LeRoux to the same effect (and of course he is inculcating his priests with this same “prudential” attitude);

    -I have also had direct conversations with two priests on the subject, and both opined that stress of the mother satisfied Pius XII’s “health of the mother” criteria.

    -The emailed anecdote I posted above, in which young SSPX women practice NFP commonly as a matter of “prudence.”

    Personally, I am prepared to accept that a nervous breakdown definitely affects the health of either parent in a major way, but also fear a dispensation will routinely be given (abuse) where all that was needed was a pep talk.

    Of greater concern is the rationale Fr. Couture and the SSPX uses (ie.  We are weaker than before; society has changed; etc) which would seem to displace the large family as the norm, and supplant it with the small family as the “prudential” decision (and for the same worldly reasons Protestants and atheists used to use against Catholics, like being better able to love and educate them):

    These reasons for allowing NFP are general, not exceptional, and consequently, a justification made on these reasons will become likewise generally applicable and widespread within the SSPX (as in fact it is!).

    How foreign to the thinking of Lefebvre and the Church!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Expanding NFP?
    « Reply #26 on: November 04, 2019, 08:14:51 AM »
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  • Pius XII opened the door to this Catholic birth control with his ill-considered speculation in his speech to the midwives.  As the article to which you linked stated, it would be ONE thing if under some very specific circuмstances, a confessor might allow/tolerate this practice for a specific penitent, and quite another to publicly declare it as licit.  From there it was just a matter of time before it became widespread.

    Pius XII caused great scandal by stating that this practice could be justified by "eugenic" considerations.  In so doing, he adopted the very language of the most ardent proponents of Abortion and Birth Control.  Margaret Sanger, the ultimate originator of Planned Parenthood, was one of the pioneer "eugenicists".  Eugenio should have thought better than to use the term eugenics.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Expanding NFP?
    « Reply #27 on: November 04, 2019, 08:38:24 AM »
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  • Pius XII opened the door to this Catholic birth control with his ill-considered speculation in his speech to the midwives.  As the article to which you linked stated, it would be ONE thing if under some very specific circuмstances, a confessor might allow/tolerate this practice for a specific penitent, and quite another to publicly declare it as licit.  From there it was just a matter of time before it became widespread.

    Pius XII caused great scandal by stating that this practice could be justified by "eugenic" considerations.  In so doing, he adopted the very language of the most ardent proponents of Abortion and Birth Control.  Margaret Sanger, the ultimate originator of Planned Parenthood, was one of the pioneer "eugenicists".  Eugenio should have thought better than to use the term eugenics.

    I agree that the reference to eugenics is a bit unsettling (particularly as the parent of a profoundly autistic child):

    Is Pius XII suggesting that the world (and parents/families) and Heaven are better off without such persons?  That the greater care they require outweighs their right to life?  That if you risk bearing such children, it is better to abstain?

    I will tell you this: For all my rough edges and imperfections, my son has made me a much more compassionate and considerate person than I was before he was born (believe it or not), and his very presence and dependence is a constant opportunity to exercise charity.  He is a great gift from God as a means to sanctification for the rest of us.

    But Pius XII seems to represent a pre-conciliar shift in moral theology (which would become dominant at and after the Council), which shifted from “sanctity of life” to “quality of life.”

    You see this shift particularly present regarding medical end of life issues, NFP, and abortion rhetoric.

    Now the SSPX seems also to have become infected with a preoccupation with “quality of life” considerations (not yet in end of life or abortion issues, but definitely in NFP).

    It had never occurred to me that Pius XII’s address to midwives gave the yellow light to the “quality of life” moral theology, but I clearly see it now.

    This is the kind of thing which should never have been broadcast publicly, as it would certainly be taken as a general principle (and in former times would have been written in Latin only in theology manuals).

    But for the reason stated above (ie., eugenic justifications), there is something at fault in the principles here, and not just the imprudence of having given such a public address.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Expanding NFP?
    « Reply #28 on: November 04, 2019, 08:54:04 AM »
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  • Quote
    In so doing, he adopted the very language of the most ardent proponents of Abortion and Birth Control.  
    Right, just like he erroneously used the word "evolution" when allowing catholic science to investigate scientific "discoveries".  Words definitely have meaning and the devil's evil forces love to use words to affect public opinion.  For example:
    .
    - Evil replaces "contra-ception" (literally "against conception") with the less harsh "birth control" or the sentimental "family planning".
    - Evil replaces "pro life" with "anti-abortion".
    - Evil replaces "fornication" with "love life".
    - Evil replaces "ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity" with "same sex marriage".
    - Evil replaces "pro-marriage" with "anti-gαy".
    - Evil replaces "patriotic nationalist" with "global isolationist".
    - Evil replaces "2nd amendment supporter" with "gun nut"
    .
    - Anytime a liberal wants to do something, they are "for" something good.  While those who oppose evil are "against" something.  This is simple psychology.  Most people are turned off by negativity, so they subconsciously see an "against" stance as bad.
    .
    Anyone that uses the term "NFP" is using a liberal, evil phrase.  We should call it what it is - "catholic birth control".  People need to wake up.