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Author Topic: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?  (Read 3754 times)

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Offline Plenus Venter

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Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2023, 11:08:49 PM »
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  • For your reading enjoyment. TLDR: laity mass postures is a mess and always has been.

    https://wdtprs.com/2020/02/ask-father-what-are-the-authentic-rubrics-postures-for-lay-people-at-the-traditional-latin-mass-are-we-doing-it-wrong/
    It was indeed reading enjoyment! Thank you for the excellent resource, Angelus.

    I must say, it is very edifying to see a congregation doing things in unison, whether it be praying the Rosary reverently, or the postures at Mass. Order and harmony come from God and the good angels. It minimises distractions, aids prayer and virtue, and helps establish the peace of God in souls. 

    I disagree with what Father says about variations within a congregation being okay... unless it were matter of principle - an example which comes to mind is some good soul who has not yet discovered Tradition who receives Holy Communion in the NOM and insists on kneeling in spite of the fact that everyone else is standing.

    It's worth copying a couple of those tables from your link:

    He gives variations for places where it is not customary to kneel for the whole Canon.    The “red booklet” is in the right column.

    And… this table follows Fortescue/O’Connell/Reid for 1962MR.

    I wouldn’t get overly worked up about this.  There are no official rubrics assigned by the Church for the laity at the TLM.  However, there are customs based on what the clergy are to do in choir.  Variations are okay, even within a congregation.
    Variations, yes.  However, if you are trying to stand out, to be different, I’d examine your conscience.



    Online Seraphina

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #16 on: September 25, 2023, 01:23:48 AM »
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  • The “red booklet” is in the right column.

    And… this table follows Fortescue/O’Connell/Reid for 1962MR.


    :incense:“FOR YOUR PENANCE, COMMIT THESE TWO CHARTS TO MEMORY. I’LL TEST YOU NEXT SATURDAY AT 6:30 AM.  NOW, MAKE YOUR ACT OF CONTRITION.” :facepalm:


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #17 on: September 25, 2023, 05:45:06 AM »
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  • :incense:“FOR YOUR PENANCE, COMMIT THESE TWO CHARTS TO MEMORY. I’LL TEST YOU NEXT SATURDAY AT 6:30 AM.  NOW, MAKE YOUR ACT OF CONTRITION.” :facepalm:
    Sorry, I'm out of town next Saturday!

    Offline St Giles

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #18 on: September 25, 2023, 02:04:09 PM »
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  • Was the SSPX teaching us wrongly for 40 years?  Was our worship defective all along?  Were we misled?  Are those few of us who still honor the old ways such an unbearable sign of contradiction that we must be snuffed out?  Is our example dangerous to preserving the status quo by serving as a reminder of the practice which once prevailed (in the same way the Winona seminary was)?
    Is it possible that you tend to consider people have worse intentions than they do, and that there is some big conspiracy?

    I'm not surprised Fr. Beck wanted the faithful to sing. The Beck family used to sell tapes of them singing. 

    Fr. Le Roux may not have thought to learn local tradition, and would most likely prefer the traditions of his country instead, and by teaching the seminarians, they would then teach those traditions at the chapels they serve thinking that is how it's supposed to be done.

    I admit it is frustrating. I'm confused now on what the faithful and servers should do because there has been so many changes over the years, and now there's a large family that likes serving the new seminary way, and leading hymns during mass, which breaks the peaceful silence. I think they are somewhat friendly to the NOM, but I've never known if hymns during Mass is normal for TLM. I think we used to only ever sing before and after.

    As for noisy priests, Fr Post comes to mind, as well as a couple of others, who seem unable to properly whisper or they just don't care to. Any other Fr. Le Roux formed priest I can remember says the mass very quietly, even impossible to make out 90% of what they say if standing right next to them, though their "Dominus vobiscuм" and such is probably louder than it needs to be.

    I would really like some videos and PDF copies of book sources showing/telling how low and high Mass were served and attended by the faithful, so I would have leverage to hold firm to what our traditions are.

    There is no problem, though, with changing traditions for the better as long as it doesn't go against Church laws and Tradition. Fr. Le Roux likes to be practical, so it would not be surprising if he made a practical change, though some of what is practical is quite subjective and equally as good as other ways of doing things.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline St Giles

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #19 on: September 25, 2023, 02:31:24 PM »
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  • That is, videos and books from at least before 50s/60s
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"


    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #20 on: September 26, 2023, 11:46:45 AM »
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  • Fr. Le Roux may not have thought to learn local tradition, and would most likely prefer the traditions of his country instead, and by teaching the seminarians, they would then teach those traditions at the chapels they serve thinking that is how it's supposed to be done.

    This is exactly the problem.

    A missionary has to understand that he is on someone else's country.  You can't just get there and impose your own culture on people.

    What is next? Is he going to make his sermons in French?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #21 on: September 26, 2023, 01:01:08 PM »
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  • This is exactly the problem.

    A missionary has to understand that he is on someone else's country.  You can't just get there and impose your own culture on people.

    What is next? Is he going to make his sermons in French?
    Well said.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Seraphina

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #22 on: September 26, 2023, 01:32:39 PM »
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  • This is exactly the problem.

    A missionary has to understand that he is on someone else's country.  You can't just get there and impose your own culture on people.

    What is next? Is he going to make his sermons in French?
    I hear sermons in French. :confused:  Oh, that’s because the Mass is in Quebec!  :incense::pray:


    Offline Texana

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #23 on: September 26, 2023, 04:28:09 PM »
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  • This is exactly the problem.

    A missionary has to understand that he is on someone else's country.  You can't just get there and impose your own culture on people.

    What is next? Is he going to make his sermons in French?
    Dear Giovanni Berto,
    A well-informed birdie said that even though Bishop Fellay did not want the "dialogue mass" to be said in the new seminary in Virginia because "it is not the American custom", Fr. LeRoux did it anyway.  Here's hoping Fr. Goldade corrects that.  Unfortunately, all the SSPX schools impose the "dialogue mass" on their innocent students.  Where are the parents' complaints?  It was an innovation in France in the 1920's--that does not make it a tradition.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #24 on: September 26, 2023, 05:31:31 PM »
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  • French people, by and large, are snobs and think their way is the only way.  Europeans especially look down on American customs, both religious and non.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #25 on: September 26, 2023, 06:11:39 PM »
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  • French people, by and large, are snobs and think their way is the only way.  Europeans especially look down on American customs, both religious and non.
    To be fair, while they are not snobs (at least not in the main), Americans think exactly the same way --- "our way is the only way".  They regard "foreign countries" as not worthy of learning anything about, and any travel they do to these countries is more along the lines of treating them either as holiday resorts or glorified theme parks.


    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #26 on: September 26, 2023, 09:41:41 PM »
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  • To be fair, while they are not snobs (at least not in the main), Americans think exactly the same way --- "our way is the only way".  They regard "foreign countries" as not worthy of learning anything about, and any travel they do to these countries is more along the lines of treating them either as holiday resorts or glorified theme parks.

    I am neither, and I can tell you that Americans do have a somewhat bad name, but nothing beats the French.

    I travelled once to Europe not so long ago. I was glad when I met Americans, because they were polite.

    There was a funny incident in the flight from Florence to Paris, when a French woman noticed that we did not speak French (me and my wife). She looked genuined puzzled, like she simply could not understand how someone who didn't speak any French could go to Paris. Fortunately, we were there only for a flight connection.

    Offline jman123

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #27 on: September 26, 2023, 11:17:13 PM »
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  • SSPX Florida where Father Toupee Vernoy is prior, all SSPX chapels there observe standing at Kyrie and while choir sings. I feel it is modernists. Why don't more people fight this. I feel lots of SSPX parishioners are sheep. 

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #28 on: September 27, 2023, 12:55:34 AM »
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  • I am neither, and I can tell you that Americans do have a somewhat bad name, but nothing beats the French.

    I travelled once to Europe not so long ago. I was glad when I met Americans, because they were polite.

    There was a funny incident in the flight from Florence to Paris, when a French woman noticed that we did not speak French (me and my wife). She looked genuined puzzled, like she simply could not understand how someone who didn't speak any French could go to Paris. Fortunately, we were there only for a flight connection.
    I have visited French-speaking countries four times (France proper, St-Martin twice, and Quebec), and while I am a long way from being fluent in French (two years in college), I was able to conduct simple everyday transactions in French, and it was very much appreciated.  I only got stuck once, at a patisserie in Paris, when I ordered a croque-monsieur (delicieux!), the young lady at the counter asked me, in French, if I wanted it microwaved, and seeing my puzzlement, she whispered in English "microwave?".

    They're not rude, they are just the same as Americans would be if the situation were reversed, if you can speak French, they appreciate it, just as an American service worker would prefer that foreigners use English if they can.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #29 on: September 27, 2023, 05:44:02 AM »
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  • There’s an old adage:

    “The way I learned it is the right way.”

    Meaning, even if you were taught wrongly, you believe you are correct, and take offense at having someone telling you otherwise.

    I get that.

    But that’s not exactly what’s going on here.  

    While there have always been slight regional variations, it happens that many of the liturgical customs in the French/Germanic countries were born of the liturgical movement (which by 1920 was no longer animated by Catholic liturgical principles).  

    So it’s not firstly a matter of French vs American preferences, but traditional vs modernist praxis.

    My guess is that the French of 1850 would not find agreeable many of the things which pass for traditional Western n France in 1950 (ie even in some French and Germanic SSPX chapels, where the Gospel and Epistle are read at the altar in the vernacular, etc.).

    THAT’s the primary objection to importing French liturgical customs to America: It’s not that they’re French, but that they’re modernist.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."