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Author Topic: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?  (Read 3753 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
« on: September 24, 2023, 12:08:24 PM »
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  • Taking advantage of today's Gospel reading admonition to "be of one mind and one spirit," the priest began the sermon announcements by acknowledging that, although the Church does not normally specify any particular Mass posturess for the faithful, he exhorted us to stand during the Kyrie (and other parts of the Mass where the faithful ought to sing, such as the Sanctus and Agnus Dei, etc.).

    As I sat there wondering how the priest (who faces the altar during the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei) could know that a handful of people (like 5-6?) retained the old custom of kneeling during those parts at a sung Mass, I also wondered why such a miniscule miniscule number was troubling him.

    In any case, I thought it might be productive to review the history of this push for the faithful to adopt uniform, modernist Mass postures, in order that the change in our chapel can be seen within context.

    The IHM chapel was started back in 1977, and from that time until the mid-2000's, the priests said low Mass quietly (i.e., not loud, as though they were addressing the faithful, like it was important for them to hear the words or something), and for sung Masses, the faithful remained kneeling when the priest ascended the altar after the prayers at the foot of the altar, during the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei.  They also remained kneeling during the incensing of the faithful, until the thurifer turned toward them to incense them. 

    This custom lasted 40+ years.

    In 2007, Fr. Beck was pastor at this chapel, when Roman Hymnals showed up in all the pews one day.  There was a push for the faithful to sing.  Since the ralliement was as yet undetected at this time, I suspected nothing more.  The Mass postures hadn't changed yet, but I seem to recall that the priests at/after this time began to say low Mass in loud voices (can anyone confirm?  There are several lurkers from IHM who frequent this board).

    Note that during this time (say from 2003 - 2013), Fr. LeRoux had displaced +Williamson in Winona, and imported modernist French liturgical customs to Winona.  Since St. Paul is proximate to Winona, and many parishioners visited there, I recall hearing some of the women complaining that in Winona the faithful now stand during the Kyrie, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, and all the rest mentioned above.  Well, "it was a seminary," we told ourselves (at least until 2010-2012 rolled around).  "Things are always a little different there."

    But the post-Williamson priests were being given a new branded formation, consistent with the French liturgical modernism and the overall goals of the ralliement, by which the SSPX inched closer and closer to conciliar practices (e.g., interpreting "active participation" as vocal participation).

    In early 2018, when Fr. Daniel Dailey was pastor (ordained in 2010, with a formation imparted under the new LeRoux regime), I arrived in the chapel one day to find inserts in all the pews instructing the faithful on new Mass postures:

    Breaking 40+ years of local custom, we were now to adopt the French/modernist postures (as Fr. Brown confirmed today, so that we could all sing): Congregational singing was now to be the norm.  We need to be active. 

    Incidentally (but not coincidentally), you will note that this trend mirrors the advance and proliferation of dialogue Masses in the USA (where once again, they were never the custom).

    So, while Fr. and his band of tattlers may be distraught that 5-6 people continue the traditional and local liturgical, pre-ralliement Mass postures which prevailed here for over 40 years, and urge us to unity in being of one mind in worship, I would simply offer Fr.'s own acknowledgement back to him, that the Church makes no such requirement regarding uniformity in the Mass postures of the faithful, and that in saner times, the Church never thought it necessary to enforce such unity (as the lack of rubrics for the faithful evinces). 

    For my part, I think it is a shame that 99.9% of the chapel was so easily and mindlessly led away from their/our prevailing custom here.  Was the SSPX teaching us wrongly for 40 years?  Was our worship defective all along?  Were we misled?  Are those few of us who still honor the old ways such an unbearable sign of contradiction that we must be snuffed out?  Is our example dangerous to preserving the status quo by serving as a reminder of the practice which once prevailed (in the same way the Winona seminary was)?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #1 on: September 24, 2023, 12:34:16 PM »
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  • Dumb question, are postures for the laity prescribed in the Pian Missal et seq, or are they just long-standing custom?  And do they vary with time and place?

    I'm not sure that the Pian Missal even presupposes that there are any faithful in attendance, aside from the acolytes.


    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #2 on: September 24, 2023, 01:37:26 PM »
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  • So basically...  "Conform or else!"...? :incense:

    We usually kneel for the Kyrie, Santus and Agnus Dei... (unless we have to sit to hold or contain the little boys or baby).  Our chapel and the other Mass location in state which I used to attend both use the pre-1955 missal.  I remember being at an SSPX chapel in NC once while on vacation and being a little weirded out as to why they everyone remained standing after the Sanctus or Agnus Dei had started.  It reminded me too much of my childhood novus ordo days.

    I don't remember what happened at the IHM church when we were in MN (I was outside with the baby most of the time)...  Wait...  It was a low Mass because of the summer time.  So, there would have been no Kyrie, Sanctus, or Agnus Dei.  😅

    Good thread!  I am interested to hear what else people might have to say about this topic.


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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #3 on: September 24, 2023, 01:46:28 PM »
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  • Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #4 on: September 24, 2023, 02:13:50 PM »
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  • For your reading enjoyment. TLDR: laity mass postures is a mess and always has been.

    https://wdtprs.com/2020/02/ask-father-what-are-the-authentic-rubrics-postures-for-lay-people-at-the-traditional-latin-mass-are-we-doing-it-wrong/
    Yes, just as I thought, there is no one way for the laity to assist.  Kneeling during the Canon would seem to be dictated out of sheer reverence if nothing else, but not even this is prescribed.  It's all organically developed custom.


    Offline Sneedevacantist

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #5 on: September 24, 2023, 02:14:03 PM »
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  • I remember being at an SSPX chapel in NC once while on vacation and being a little weirded out as to why they everyone remained standing after the Sanctus or Agnus Dei had started.  It reminded me too much of my childhood novus ordo days.
    At the North Carolina SSPX chapel, it's mixed on standing and kneeling for the Sanctus and Agnus Dei. I've noticed lately that more people are kneeling than standing now.

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #6 on: September 24, 2023, 02:38:26 PM »
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  • For your reading enjoyment. TLDR: laity mass postures is a mess and always has been.

    https://wdtprs.com/2020/02/ask-father-what-are-the-authentic-rubrics-postures-for-lay-people-at-the-traditional-latin-mass-are-we-doing-it-wrong/
    The New Roman Missal of Fr. Lasance 1945 contradicts what Fr. Z quotes.
    The missal states to kneel from the Sanctus till Communion for ALL Masses also for the Ite Missa Est and Blessing.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #7 on: September 24, 2023, 03:11:13 PM »
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  • The New Roman Missal of Fr. Lasance 1945 contradicts what Fr. Z quotes.
    The missal states to kneel from the Sanctus till Communion for ALL Masses also for the Ite Missa Est and Blessing.

    Well, yes, but is that just Fr Lasance's recommendation, or does it have any sort of official status (whatever that might be)?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of everyone sitting, standing, or kneeling in unison, I just have to think it is more custom than absolute requirement.


    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #8 on: September 24, 2023, 03:16:42 PM »
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  • We
    Well, yes, but is that just Fr Lasance's recommendation, or does it have any sort of official status (whatever that might be)?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of everyone sitting, standing, or kneeling in unison, I just have to think it is more custom than absolute requirement.
    Well, what it states at the top of the page is:-
    "WHEN TO KNEEL, STAND OR SIT
    AT LOW, HIGH, REQUIEM OR SOLEMN MASS"
    According to custom in American churches when there is no
    canonical choir, and no one to give a sign for standing, kneeling etc
    the following procedure may be observed:"

    This was what I observed in my church when I was a younger.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #9 on: September 24, 2023, 06:07:11 PM »
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  • Well, yes, but is that just Fr Lasance's recommendation, or does it have any sort of official status (whatever that might be)?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of everyone sitting, standing, or kneeling in unison, I just have to think it is more custom than absolute requirement.

    That's half the point: There are no rubrics for the faithful, so why overthrow a 40+ year custom (itself based on preconciliar custom here), and implement French modernist liturgical movement nonsense?

    The other half of the point is that doing so furthers the SSPX ralliement by coming to terms with modernist liturgical praxis (i.e., "active participation" = vocal participation).

    Antichrist Rome will certainly be clapping their hands, and encouraging Menzingen in these intiiatives.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #10 on: September 24, 2023, 06:13:00 PM »
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  • The New Roman Missal of Fr. Lasance 1945 contradicts what Fr. Z quotes.
    The missal states to kneel from the Sanctus till Communion for ALL Masses also for the Ite Missa Est and Blessing.
    It seems to me it’s a bit different everywhere you go, even in SSPX chapels.  Some places people do a variety within the Mass.  My best guess is that pre-V2, people followed local customs as given by the diocesan bishop or parish priest.


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #11 on: September 24, 2023, 08:10:38 PM »
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  • WeWell, what it states at the top of the page is:-
    "WHEN TO KNEEL, STAND OR SIT
    AT LOW, HIGH, REQUIEM OR SOLEMN MASS"
    According to custom in American churches when there is no
    canonical choir, and no one to give a sign for standing, kneeling etc
    the following procedure may be observed:"

    This was what I observed in my church when I was a younger.

    Again, just custom, as Fr Lasance himself notes (not to say that it is wrong or worthless).  As SeanJohnson notes above, there are no rubrics for the faithful.  What you cite does not rise to the level of rubrics.

    I agree, the SSPX shouldn't be coming in and changing around customs that Americans are used to.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #12 on: September 24, 2023, 08:50:48 PM »
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  • The French and German modernists are who led the way at V2.  Their local customs were V2-like long before 1960.  The French/German priests in the sspx should recognize their disordered liturgical past and be less haughty towards americans.  But I think history is repeating itself and the French/germans are leading the way in the infiltration of the new-sspx.  

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #13 on: September 24, 2023, 09:01:17 PM »
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  • The Church has never imposed customs upon any of the faithful.

    Apart from the Roman Rite, missionaries have always tried to respect and consider the local customs.

    It is even more absurd when you impose something on a nation on which its faithful already have their Catholic customs. That is not traditional at all. 

    No other congregation ever imposed novelties like this anywhere in the world, as far as I am aware.

    Offline BrianA

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    Re: SSPX Enforcing French Modernist Mass Postures?
    « Reply #14 on: September 24, 2023, 10:17:45 PM »
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  • It is even more absurd when you impose something on a nation on which its faithful already have their Catholic customs. That is not traditional at all.
    The SSPX is no longer Traditional... ;)

    I was at St. Nicolas in Paris for the first time back in 2000, and the children insisted that we were at the Novus Ordo because it was so much like the N.O.

    A friend of mine says the new postures are actually the 1965 "rubrics" but I don't know for sure.

    This same friend said the old priest from Greenwood, Indiana preached a sermon once about mass postures and said that we should follow the priest and not the choir: if the priest waits for the choir, then keep standing at the Sanctus, but if he doesn't wait for the choir, kneel. This makes perfect sense.