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Author Topic: SSPX Cranking Up Diocesan Collaboration in St. Paul  (Read 3249 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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SSPX Cranking Up Diocesan Collaboration in St. Paul
« on: March 31, 2019, 01:55:55 PM »
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  • I am forming the distinct impression of being subjected to the methodical and incremental unfurling of a plan to make our SSPX chapel in St. Paul, MN comfortable with conciliarism and conciliarists.

    Yes, of course I have had this distinct impression of the SSPX sliding at the macro level since 2009, and especially since 2012, but it is only in the last 1.5 - 2 years that I have begun to sense a local implementation of the new principles being embraced and disseminated from Menzingen.

    To wit:

    -About two years ago, the pastor distributed cards in the pews implementing new Mass postures for the faithful (basically, importing French modernist pre-conciliar customs, which all seem oriented to promote congregational singing and "active" participation).  But our chapel had been around for 40 years prior to the implementation of these changes, and since the SSPX accepts the new Code of Canon Law, it can well understand that a custom of 40 years obtains the force of law, and I am well within my rights to quietly retain the pre-existing postures in use since the inception of our chapel.  I note that my family is more or less the only family retaining the old custom.

    -Last May, the pastor scheduled the Academy post-graduation reception to be held down the road at St. Patrick's Church (a conciliar Novus Ordo parish).  The Academy had been in operation for 25 years, and such measures had never been necessary.  But suddenly this seemed like the move to make?  I called our paastor to ask about this, and he told me that it was not a liturgical function; we were just using the church hall for the reception.  I let the matter drop.  I do note that several US District officials were present for this reception, however.  

    -About 6 weeks ago (+/-), it was announced from the pulpit that our chapel talent show was going to be held not far from the Church, and "address is in the bulletin."  The name of the venue was omitted from both the sermon and the bulletin.  But upon Googling the address, one discovered that the talent show was being held at the Lutheran high school.

    -Today, the pastor announces that for the first time in a long time, there is going to be a women's retreat in Buffalo, MN.  Once again, he does not name the venue from the pulpit, but he directs the faithful to a sign-up sheet in the vestibule, upon which the name of the venue is disclosed.  

    As Mass progresses after the sermon, I am racking my brain trying to figure out what SSPX venue is in or near Buffalo, MN.  I have a growing fear this is going to be another conciliar collaboration maneuver, but I do my best to concentrate on Mass.

    After my thanksgiving, I grab the sign-up sheet (attached below), and discover my spprehension and unease was well-founded: The SSPX women's retreat will be held at the Christ the King Retreat Center (a conciliar venue of the Archdiocese of St. Paul/Minneapolis).

    I find myself considering how, if my pastor's response to my inquiry regarding last May's graduation reception at the local Novus Ordo parish was justified upon the pretext of it not being a liturgical event, what will be his excuse this time?  Will there be no Masses at this Ignatian retreat?

    I find my mind noting that these disorienting extra-SSPX events and collaborative programs are occurring at an accelerated pace.  But simultaneously, nobody seems to be complaining, except me.

    They are all along for the ride.

    Presumably, they agree with the new orientation of the SSPX, even as they deny the existence of any such reorientation.

    I recall a post somewhere in the CCCC thread about Fr. Pfluger saying we have gotten our clergy on board with the conciliar and indult collaborative effort, but now we need to start getting our faithful on board, or something to that effect (in capita, et in membris, or some such principle.  I think it was in the Flavigny Christmas conference to the Brothers).

    Is that what I am experiencing now at the local level?

    Is the pastor breaking the parish out of its comfort zone, to get our people used to collaborating with conciliarists (which of course must transpire before there can be any definitive doctrinal statement of reconciliation; Rome will not tolerate turning its dioceses into war zones.  This is common sense)?  

    In any case, in addition to the attached sign-up sheet, here is the Christ the King Retreat House website here: https://kingshouse.com/ (which includes many illuminating pictures regarding the venue the SSPX women will be immersed in).

    Interestingly, the Retreat House calendar does not reflect the SSPX retreat for August, mentioned on the attached sign-up sheet.

    Is not what Archbishop Lefebvre said here of sedevacantism equally applicable to conciliarism (edited to make the point)?

    "Yes, there is the Mass...but there is also the sermon; there is the atmosphere, the conversations, contacts before and after, which make you little by little change your ideas. It is therefore a danger and that’s why in general, I think it constitutes part of a whole. One does not merely go to Mass [retreat house], one frequents a milieu...They are in a climate of ambiguity which to my mind is dangerous. Once one finds oneself in this atmosphere, submitted to the Vatican, subject ultimately to the Council, one ends up by becoming ecuмenical."  http://www.drbo.org/lefebvre.htm
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ekim

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    Re: SSPX Cranking Up Diocesan Collaboration in St. Paul
    « Reply #1 on: March 31, 2019, 05:41:57 PM »
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  • Just curious, is your Pastor Fr Bormaud? He initiated the same types of postures during Mass at our Chapel some years ago.


    Offline pearl777

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    Re: SSPX Cranking Up Diocesan Collaboration in St. Paul
    « Reply #2 on: March 31, 2019, 06:14:58 PM »
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  • I voted with my feet and left the SSPX six weeks ago after attending at the Winona Seminary for twenty years.  Has anyone still attending an SSPX Chapel noticed an influx of unfamiliar faces?  

    The dress code plaque at the Winona Seminary was replaced with...wait for it...a framed picture of Pope Francis.  In the 20 years I attended Mass at the Winona Seminary Chapel the ONLY framed picture of a Pope I saw was Pope St. Pius X.

    I'm wondering if the GREC deal wasn't a two-way street?  SSPX capitulates, and so does the local NO parish Priests/Bishops?  

    The real Trads appear to be slipping away to be replaced by NO attendees?

    Thoughts from anyone more educated on GREC would be welcome.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Cranking Up Diocesan Collaboration in St. Paul
    « Reply #3 on: March 31, 2019, 07:44:11 PM »
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  • Quote
    The dress code plaque at the Winona Seminary was replaced with...wait for it...a framed picture of Pope Francis. 
    Ha ha.  Oh, the irony.  The dress code replaced with the living symbol of "who am I to judge?"  

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: SSPX Cranking Up Diocesan Collaboration in St. Paul
    « Reply #4 on: March 31, 2019, 11:50:31 PM »
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  • "Imagine if you will... a traditional Catholic order where the priests are no longer traditional."



    An order that runs faux trad chapels and leads their trusting congregations to
    follow newChurch and Francis, the Destroyer.

    Impossible you say?  

    My friend, you have just entered the neo-SSPX.

    A trad cult, only found... in the Twilight Zone.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: SSPX Cranking Up Diocesan Collaboration in St. Paul
    « Reply #5 on: April 01, 2019, 10:23:04 AM »
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  • "Imagine if you will... a traditional Catholic order where the priests are no longer traditional."



    An order that runs faux trad chapels and leads their trusting congregations to
    follow newChurch and Francis, the Destroyer.

    Impossible you say?  

    My friend, you have just entered the neo-SSPX.

    A trad cult, only found... in the Twilight Zone.
    That is why we must choose the correct dimension of Faith and Morals...


    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster

    Offline St Paul

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    Re: SSPX Cranking Up Diocesan Collaboration in St. Paul
    « Reply #6 on: April 01, 2019, 11:17:32 AM »
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  • Just curious, is your Pastor Fr Bormaud? He initiated the same types of postures during Mass at our Chapel some years ago.
    At ours, too, as did fr. Boyle and fr. Ken novak.
    Photo of local diocesan bishop in the church, photo of pope in the hall, no photo of ABL anywhere, talent shows, history challenge with fraternity of st. Peter, immodesty in dress, supporting families with the greatest connections and/or money over other families, etc..

    NOT Catholic at all.  Sickening.  We walked away from them years ago.

    Offline pearl777

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    Re: SSPX Cranking Up Diocesan Collaboration in St. Paul
    « Reply #7 on: April 01, 2019, 12:31:38 PM »
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  • Winona, MN hosted the U.S. Seminary, with Bishop Williamson as Rector, from 1988 until 2003 when he left for Argentina.  The effects of his guidance lingered until at least 2009.  Bishop Williamson's expulsion from the SSPX in 2012 rocked the Winona faithful, the majority of whom continued to support him while attending Mass and receiving the Sacraments at the Seminary.

    The Seminary moved from Winona to its present location in the fall of 2015.  The Winona Seminary is now the Holy Angels Novitiate - home of the SSPX Brothers.

    For the past couple of years, differences were subtle. Of course, you see what you want to see, and you hear what you want to hear.  

    It was heartbreaking to leave.  I owe much to the SSPX, as does my family.  There are many Priests, and Religious that we know and dearly love.  We attended many of the Ordinations and knew many of the Ordinands from their novitiate days.  

    The move toward Rome is accelerating at a break-neck pace.  One wonders why.  That is why I wish someone like X, if he knows, could present some docuмentation on what the "dark side - Rome" agreed to in the GREC "accords."  This is clearly a bi-directional movement.  I wonder if Bishop Williamson knows.

    I agree with Matthew.  Ultimately, no one in the SSPX (Priests, Religious, Seminarians, faithful) will be able to keep straddling the ever widening gulf of true SSPX loyal to the Archbishop, and NO-SSPX.  A choice will have to made, but I feel for the SSPX Priests and Religious--it will be much harder for them to make that choice than for the layperson.



    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Cranking Up Diocesan Collaboration in St. Paul
    « Reply #8 on: April 01, 2019, 12:57:09 PM »
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  • Ps: Inevitably, someone will suggest this retreat venue is indicative of nothing; it is a purely practical and logistical decision.  

    But this venue is only one hour closer to the chapel than the former Winona seminary, which sits half empty, has hosted many retreats in the past, and could easily host this one.

    Last month, they hosted the annual district priest meeting, which included 75 priests or more.

    The decision only makes sense through the lens of the Society’s rapprochement with Rome.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline jvk

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    Re: SSPX Cranking Up Diocesan Collaboration in St. Paul
    « Reply #9 on: April 01, 2019, 01:57:26 PM »
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  • This actually happened at our parish, too, before we quit going to the SSPX.  It was in 2011 or 2010; our pastor had arranged to have a women's retreat at a well-known N.O. retreat center.  It fell through, though, because they wanted to have nothing to do with the SSPX! 

    This same pastor also told us that according to the 1981 code of Canon Law, the current law of fast was only 1 hr.  Extenuating circuмstance?  We were to have a Saints Day party and potluck after Mass.  Because he was extremely late for the evening Mass, we had the potluck before. 

    And this was the same priest my husband talked to about the leaked letter of the Doctrinal Agreement, seeking his opinion/counsel before leaving the SSPX.  Who told him that the Jews were our "elder brothers", and that they weren't responisible for all the evils in the world, and yelled--yes, actually yelled--at him during the conversation, answering no questions and condemning us to Hell. 

    He later became the bursar at the Regina Coeli House.

    So, yes, I'd say the choice of Retreat Center has a lot to do with directional changes in the SSPX! 

    Offline bgui

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    Re: SSPX Cranking Up Diocesan Collaboration in St. Paul
    « Reply #10 on: April 02, 2019, 08:01:22 AM »
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  • As a French ex-parishioner of the SSPX I am wondering what is  referred to here:

    Quote
    About two years ago, the pastor distributed cards in the pews implementing new Mass postures for the faithful (basically, importing French modernist pre-conciliar customs, which all seem oriented to promote congregational singing and "active" participation).


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Cranking Up Diocesan Collaboration in St. Paul
    « Reply #11 on: April 02, 2019, 08:33:10 AM »
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  • Quote
    Because he was extremely late for the evening Mass, we had the potluck before. 
    This is just anti-catholic on so many levels.  This priest is surely a modernist.  Sure, it's within the letter of the law, but as St Paul says, the letter of the law kills.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: SSPX Cranking Up Diocesan Collaboration in St. Paul
    « Reply #12 on: April 02, 2019, 09:28:00 AM »
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  •  :facepalm: I will be relieved, once the SSPX inks their prelature deal and openly becomes Francis's conservative front.

    Their betrayal is analogous to the Brit priests who sold-out the Faith under Queen Elizabeth, and went on to help her form the Anglican Church.

    It will be more clear then, instead all their two-faced sneaking around. 

    Of course we can expect then that the trad Catholic remnant will be constantly harangued in the media for being "dangerous schismatics".

    So bring it on...
    We'll meet on the Last Day, but the neo-SSPX won't be with those heading for Heaven.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Meg

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    Re: SSPX Cranking Up Diocesan Collaboration in St. Paul
    « Reply #13 on: April 02, 2019, 09:36:58 AM »
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  • I voted with my feet and left the SSPX six weeks ago after attending at the Winona Seminary for twenty years.  Has anyone still attending an SSPX Chapel noticed an influx of unfamiliar faces?  

    The dress code plaque at the Winona Seminary was replaced with...wait for it...a framed picture of Pope Francis.  In the 20 years I attended Mass at the Winona Seminary Chapel the ONLY framed picture of a Pope I saw was Pope St. Pius X.

    I'm wondering if the GREC deal wasn't a two-way street?  SSPX capitulates, and so does the local NO parish Priests/Bishops?  

    The real Trads appear to be slipping away to be replaced by NO attendees?

    Thoughts from anyone more educated on GREC would be welcome.

    Hi, and welcome to the forum! I don't recall a lot about GREC, but the Dominicans of Avrille have written a good analysis of it. As you may know, the Dominicans of Avrille (in France) were started by Archbishop Lefebvre in 1974, but they were booted out of the SSPX (they didn't want to leave) because they were vocally speaking out against a deal with Rome.

    Anyway, in looking over the lengthy article by the Dominicans, it seems that it may have been discussed during the GREC meetings that the excommunications of the four SSPX bishops should be lifted, but it's not a definite thing. Here's the article:

    http://www.dominicansavrille.us/the-g-r-e-c/
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline pearl777

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    Re: SSPX Cranking Up Diocesan Collaboration in St. Paul
    « Reply #14 on: April 02, 2019, 10:40:28 AM »
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  • Hi, and welcome to the forum! I don't recall a lot about GREC, but the Dominicans of Avrille have written a good analysis of it. As you may know, the Dominicans of Avrille (in France) were started by Archbishop Lefebvre in 1974, but they were booted out of the SSPX (they didn't want to leave) because they were vocally speaking out against a deal with Rome.

    Anyway, in looking over the lengthy article by the Dominicans, it seems that it may have been discussed during the GREC meetings that the excommunications of the four SSPX bishops should be lifted, but it's not a definite thing. Here's the article:

    http://www.dominicansavrille.us/the-g-r-e-c/
    Thank you!!!