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Author Topic: SSPX Commentary: Returning to a Resistance Position???  (Read 4394 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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SSPX Commentary: Returning to a Resistance Position???
« on: July 17, 2021, 03:10:05 PM »
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  • From the official SSPX French District website: https://laportelatine.org/docuмents/crise-eglise/ecclesiadeisme/le-pape-francois-restreint-lusage-de-la-messe-traditionnelle


    "[We are] No longer to speak of "Mass according to the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite".

    With his Motu Proprio entitled Traditionis Custodes[1] of July 16, 2021, to which is attached an accompanying letter to the bishops, Pope Francis has just decided that this distinction invented by Benedict XVI was obsolete: only the new Mass of Paul VI has the right to be cited in the conciliar Church, the traditional Mass is only tolerated.

    Unity behind the new Mass
    What is the status of the Tridentine Mass now? The answer is not given in these docuмents, but it doesn't matter because the clearly stated objective is its disappearance. It is now permitted under drastic conditions for "those who need time to return to the Roman Rite promulgated by Saints Paul VI and John Paul II," i.e., the New Mass.

    The means used to stifle the traditional Mass are clearly indicated in the Motu Proprio: severe limitations on the times and places for the celebration of the traditional Mass; firm control by the bishops of diocesan priests wishing to celebrate according to the old rite; suppression of all protective supervision of the Institutes under the jurisdiction of the former Ecclesia Dei Commission.

    Unity behind the Second Vatican Council
    The pope intends to eradicate all pockets of resistance to the reforms of the Second Vatican Council. This was, he admits, the goal of the motu proprio of 1988 and 2007; since their implementation has instead strengthened positions that lead to "doubting the Council,"[3] Pope Francis is putting an end to the experiment. The groups that will still be allowed to celebrate according to the old rite will have to certify that they "do not exclude the validity and legitimacy of the liturgical reform, of the precepts of the Second Vatican Council and of the Magisterium of the Supreme Pontiffs,"[4] thus adhering to the Council and to the post-conciliar Magisterium.

    The clarification is brutal for those who thought they could put their trust in authorities still imbued with liberal values, when the Society of St. Pius X can faithfully rely on the wisdom of its founder, who warned about the 1984 indult granting the traditional Mass a conditional freedom: "We cannot place ourselves under an authority whose ideas are liberal and which would condemn us little by little, by force of circuмstance, to accept these ideas and their consequences, first of all the new Mass."
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Commentary: Returning to a Resistance Position???
    « Reply #1 on: July 17, 2021, 03:14:48 PM »
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  • The clarification is brutal for those who thought they could put their trust in authorities still imbued with liberal values, when the Society of St. Pius X can faithfully rely on the wisdom of its founder, who warned about the 1984 indult granting the traditional Mass a conditional freedom: "We cannot place ourselves under an authority whose ideas are liberal and which would condemn us little by little, by force of circuмstance, to accept these ideas and their consequences, first of all the new Mass."

    What do you guys make of this ^^^

    On the one hand, it reads as a self-indictment, because it was the policy of the 2012 GC and +BF who "thought they could put their trust in authorities still imbued with liberal values..."

    On the other hand, it finishes by suggesting they were mistaken, and it is time to return to the position of Archbishop Lefebvre vis-a-vis Rome (i.e., No practical accord before the conversion of Rome).

    Both would be VERY positive developments, if this is the case.

    Or, are they pretending they themselves never put their trust in liberal authorities, but others did?  
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: SSPX Commentary: Returning to a Resistance Position???
    « Reply #2 on: July 17, 2021, 03:23:39 PM »
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  • From the official SSPX French District website: https://laportelatine.org/docuмents/crise-eglise/ecclesiadeisme/le-pape-francois-restreint-lusage-de-la-messe-traditionnelle


    "[We are] No longer to speak of "Mass according to the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite".

    With his Motu Proprio entitled Traditionis Custodes[1] of July 16, 2021, to which is attached an accompanying letter to the bishops, Pope Francis has just decided that this distinction invented by Benedict XVI was obsolete: only the new Mass of Paul VI has the right to be cited in the conciliar Church, the traditional Mass is only tolerated.

    Unity behind the new Mass
    What is the status of the Tridentine Mass now? The answer is not given in these docuмents, but it doesn't matter because the clearly stated objective is its disappearance. It is now permitted under drastic conditions for "those who need time to return to the Roman Rite promulgated by Saints Paul VI and John Paul II," i.e., the New Mass.

    The means used to stifle the traditional Mass are clearly indicated in the Motu Proprio: severe limitations on the times and places for the celebration of the traditional Mass; firm control by the bishops of diocesan priests wishing to celebrate according to the old rite; suppression of all protective supervision of the Institutes under the jurisdiction of the former Ecclesia Dei Commission.

    Unity behind the Second Vatican Council
    The pope intends to eradicate all pockets of resistance to the reforms of the Second Vatican Council. This was, he admits, the goal of the motu proprio of 1988 and 2007; since their implementation has instead strengthened positions that lead to "doubting the Council,"[3] Pope Francis is putting an end to the experiment. The groups that will still be allowed to celebrate according to the old rite will have to certify that they "do not exclude the validity and legitimacy of the liturgical reform, of the precepts of the Second Vatican Council and of the Magisterium of the Supreme Pontiffs,"[4] thus adhering to the Council and to the post-conciliar Magisterium.

    The clarification is brutal for those who thought they could put their trust in authorities still imbued with liberal values, when the Society of St. Pius X can faithfully rely on the wisdom of its founder, who warned about the 1984 indult granting the traditional Mass a conditional freedom: "We cannot place ourselves under an authority whose ideas are liberal and which would condemn us little by little, by force of circuмstance, to accept these ideas and their consequences, first of all the new Mass."
    If I were a betting man, I'd bet that it goes something like this:

    *  "Lower the boom" on faithful who are now assisting at the Traditional Latin Mass outside the SSPX
    *  Note that he didn't mention the SSPX (or if he did, I may have missed something, someone please correct me if I'm wrong)
    *  Drive as many traditionalists as possible into the SSPX, and if they are allowed to continue, similar groups such as the FSSP and ICKSP
    *  Bring all of these together under a kind of "super-SSPX"
    *  Offer Fellay et al a deal by which they, in some fashion, admit the licitness of both the Novus Ordo and Vatican II, and they are possibly called upon to celebrate the Novus Ordo, at least from time to time, or as ad hoc "supply" priests
    *  They take the deal, then the TLM is "quarantined" into this one group, and this one group only, while the rest of the Roman Rite goes full-bore Novus Ordo
    *  They don't take the deal, and then they're declared schismatic, and portrayed as bad actors in bad faith
    *  Those who continue any "resistance" are likewise marginalized, possibly declared schismatic, possibly just ignored

    I know that some of these points have been raised elsewhere, but to my mind, it all makes sense.

    Papa Francisco can't suppress the TLM, keep people from attending it by hook or by crook, and he knows it.

    As I told my dear mother this morning, he's running scared, he's afraid that traditionalists will take over the mind and heart of the Church.  I would certainly expect any pope or bishop to understand the concept of "damage control". Does he?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Commentary: Returning to a Resistance Position???
    « Reply #3 on: July 17, 2021, 03:29:04 PM »
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  • If I were a betting man, I'd bet that it goes something like this:

    *  "Lower the boom" on faithful who are now assisting at the Traditional Latin Mass outside the SSPX
    *  Note that he didn't mention the SSPX (or if he did, I may have missed something, someone please correct me if I'm wrong)
    *  Drive as many traditionalists as possible into the SSPX, and if they are allowed to continue, similar groups such as the FSSP and ICKSP
    *  Bring all of these together under a kind of "super-SSPX"
    *  Offer Fellay et al a deal by which they, in some fashion, admit the licitness of both the Novus Ordo and Vatican II, and they are possibly called upon to celebrate the Novus Ordo, at least from time to time, or as ad hoc "supply" priests
    *  They take the deal, then the TLM is "quarantined" into this one group, and this one group only, while the rest of the Roman Rite goes full-bore Novus Ordo
    *  They don't take the deal, and then they're declared schismatic, and portrayed as bad actors in bad faith
    *  Those who continue any "resistance" are likewise marginalized, possibly declared schismatic, possibly just ignored

    I know that some of these points have been raised elsewhere, but to my mind, it all makes sense.

    Papa Francisco can't suppress the TLM, keep people from attending it by hook or by crook, and he knows it.

    As I told my dear mother this morning, he's running scared, he's afraid that traditionalists will take over the mind and heart of the Church.  I would certainly expect any pope or bishop to understand the concept of "damage control". Does he?
    Interesting theory.  Quite plausible.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline richard

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    Re: SSPX Commentary: Returning to a Resistance Position???
    « Reply #4 on: July 17, 2021, 03:40:43 PM »
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  • Time is not on the side of the modernists, more and more young people with children are turning to tradition. Francis' operation may have been more serious than we have been told and we wants to do his part to destroy the church before he dies; if that includes destroying the Society then so much the better for him.


    Offline Marion

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    Re: SSPX Commentary: Returning to a Resistance Position???
    « Reply #5 on: July 17, 2021, 03:46:02 PM »
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  • The clarification is brutal for those who thought they could put their trust in authorities still imbued with liberal values, when the Society of St. Pius X can faithfully rely on the wisdom of its founder, who warned about the 1984 indult granting the traditional Mass a conditional freedom: "We cannot place ourselves under an authority whose ideas are liberal and which would condemn us little by little, by force of circuмstance, to accept these ideas and their consequences, first of all the new Mass."

    They're playing games. "Simon says".


    We've always been at war with Eurasia.

    How many fingers? Four or five?
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Meg

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    Re: SSPX Commentary: Returning to a Resistance Position???
    « Reply #6 on: July 17, 2021, 03:53:41 PM »
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  • Maybe it's only the French District who cares about the situation, or maybe it's a test to see what the reaction will be. I haven't seen anything on DICI about this situation. The SSPX of old would have had something to say before now about this new development of the Pope.

    Wasn't the SSPX offered, at some point, for all of the Latin Masses in the conciliar church to be under their control? Maybe I'm not remembering that correctly.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Caraffa

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    Re: SSPX Commentary: Returning to a Resistance Position???
    « Reply #7 on: July 17, 2021, 05:23:28 PM »
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  • Time is not on the side of the modernists, more and more young people with children are turning to tradition. Francis' operation may have been more serious than we have been told and we wants to do his part to destroy the church before he dies; if that includes destroying the Society then so much the better for him.

    The problem here is that time & demographics are on the modernists side. This is something few seem to understand about Bergoglio, he represent the stark reality of the Third World Church.
    Pray for me, always.


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: SSPX Commentary: Returning to a Resistance Position???
    « Reply #8 on: July 17, 2021, 06:22:44 PM »
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  • Interesting theory.  Quite plausible.
    Not to be prideful about my possible ability to prognosticate, but I'd like to put this in an envelope or somewhere, open it up in 5-10 years, and see how closely it conforms to the way things end up unfolding.

    I also found it interesting that he ordered this to take effect immediately, meaning, in his mind, I know it's Friday, but there'd better not be any parish church TLMs on Sunday --- "chop-chop!".  The "immediately" part makes me think that he foresees his coming death --- having part of your colon removed at age 86 with only one full lung, is never a good thing --- and wanted to slip this term paper under the professor's office door before midnight on the day it's due.  (Been there, done that.  I majored in procrastination with a minor in cramming.  Not a practice I recommend.)

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Commentary: Returning to a Resistance Position???
    « Reply #9 on: July 17, 2021, 09:00:58 PM »
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  • Quote
    Bring all of these together under a kind of "super-SSPX"
    *  Offer Fellay et al a deal by which they, in some fashion, admit the licitness of both the Novus Ordo and Vatican II, and they are possibly called upon to celebrate the Novus Ordo, at least from time to time, or as ad hoc "supply" priests
    *  They take the deal, then the TLM is "quarantined" into this one group, and this one group only, while the rest of the Roman Rite goes full-bore Novus Ordo
    This was the plan under +Benedict and it failed.  As +Francis even admitted in this new docuмent, +Benedict’s motu in 2007 was to “heal the division” caused by +ABL (ie sspx).  But it didn’t work; the sspx didn’t make a full deal (to +Fellays dismay). 
    .
    I think that +Francis has gone full impatient mode (just like the globalists with the virus).  The commies/Modernists know they don’t have much time left, so they are going full bore.  
    .
    If the sspx made a deal now, they’d be bat-shat crazy.  But stranger things have happened in history.  Is this a last wake up call to the sspx Trads that a deal with new-Rome is ѕυιcιdє?  
    .
    I see this as desperation from the Modernist/commies in new Rome. I don’t see the sspx making a deal now.  If they did, it would be too obvious that +Fellay is a traitor.  But...the sspx frog has been boiling for many years, so I won’t be surprised at anything.  

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: SSPX Commentary: Returning to a Resistance Position???
    « Reply #10 on: July 17, 2021, 10:35:29 PM »
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  • Maybe people will start flocking to SSPV or CMRI?  I’d like to say Resistance, but there just aren’t enough of them.  All that is left are independent priests here and there and the Eastern Rites, most of them fairly liberalized in practice if not on paper.  Returnees to the novus ordo, will be the ones who went to diocesan Latin Mass, but just by personal preference.  Some people will have no choice but to stay home alone.  If the SSPX capitulates along with FSSP and ICK, there’s also like the issue of their schools. Already, some students have been lost in states that required MMR vaccines.  If they all require the current stab, then look for them to close down altogether.  


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Commentary: Returning to a Resistance Position???
    « Reply #11 on: July 18, 2021, 05:45:49 AM »
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  • Whoever wrote this was likely always against +Fellay’s efforts, loyal to +Lefebvre.  This just emboldened him to “come out of the closet”.  Many more will do the same.  Still waiting for Menzingen’s response.  Could this lead to their admission that the Resistance was right?

    Bergoglio has done a lot of good.  He may have just saved the Trad movement.

    He’s also inspired many to become sedevacantist.

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: SSPX Commentary: Returning to a Resistance Position???
    « Reply #12 on: July 18, 2021, 02:55:18 PM »
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  • Since Francis is a card carrying globalist, I can't help but think that his  TLM exceptions will eventually have to  be a  "state approved" situation as well and subject to government restrictions- meaning that independent traditional Masses may be declared illegal and go (further) underground. 
    (Look at the Vatican agreement with China) 

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: SSPX Commentary: Returning to a Resistance Position???
    « Reply #13 on: July 18, 2021, 04:07:16 PM »
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  • Maybe it's only the French District who cares about the situation, or maybe it's a test to see what the reaction will be. I haven't seen anything on DICI about this situation. The SSPX of old would have had something to say before now about this new development of the Pope.

    Wasn't the SSPX offered, at some point, for all of the Latin Masses in the conciliar church to be under their control? Maybe I'm not remembering that correctly.

    Some good points Megster.

    The French are the most uncontrolled, intellectual and volatile portion of the global neo-SSPX.  
    No doubt freemasonic president Makron would like to double vax them all


    On the Latin Mass monopoly, Father Sretenovich caught Bp. Fellay letting the concept slip-out in January 2012.



    Interpellation to Bishop B. Fellay on Independent Priests

     Why Did You Condemn Us,
     When You Are in a Similar Situation?


    Quote
    TIA has received this Interpellation from Fr. Paul Sretenovic to be posted on our website. We believe that his courageous initiative should be known by our readers. The title and subtitles are ours. The Editor


    Quote
    Your Excellency Bishop Bernard Fellay,

     As we prepare ourselves to enter into Lent, the most sorrowful period in the Church's calendar, I want to express to you my own sorrow after hearing your sermon from the Feast of the Purification of Our Lady this past February the 2nd.

     My problem stems from what you began to say from the 24th minute on with reference to "independent priests." My first reaction was surprise, followed by indignation. Since then, I have prayerfully been able to take a step back and give you at least some benefit of the doubt because it is quite possible that your intention was not to attack priests who have been unjustly suspended from their diocese or religious orders and who have since functioned in an at least relatively individual context. Your primary purpose, it would seem, was to present a state of the negotiations with Rome addressed in the context of Church teaching to the seminarians in Winona as well as to their families. Your scope, therefore, given how little you elaborated on the points in question, could be said to be the status of the Society of St. Pius X, and not so much anyone else.

     What makes what you said all the more serious, however, is that the sermon is also available online on the official SSPX website. Therefore, what you have said, regardless of intention, has been heard by many, a number of whom could easily have had the same impression that I did. Even assuming no other ulterior motives, what was said was I believe at best misleading. This is as much because of what you did not say and not simply because of what in fact was stated.

     So then, you said in your sermon that an independent priest, vagus, automatically loses all right to any Sacramental ministry. Of course, in normal times, this is correct. But then, without making any qualifications for a “state of emergency” and “supplied jurisdiction,” after one or two other points, you stated that the SSPX is not an independent group and never has been. Does it not seem most natural to infer from this that you were immediately separating the Society of St. Pius X priests from any such stigma that would otherwise justly leave them without any right to Sacramental ministry, even in these times?

     Bishop Fellay uses two weights and two measures



    Fellay, arrogant with traditionalists,
     subservient with progressivists
    The last time I checked, however, the SSPX itself has no ordinary jurisdiction in the Church and, as His Excellency Bishop Tissier so aptly defended over 10 years ago in an article for, I believe, Si Si No No, the SSPX does indeed work upon the principle of "supplied jurisdiction." According to this principle, as you know, when there is just cause, the laity can approach any Catholic priest for the Sacraments. So then, why did you raise the need of incardination for independent priests when given the crisis in the Church they also are based on the principles of “state of emergency” and “supplied jurisdiction”? Why such inconsistency that only adds to the general confusion in which we live?

     If one were to follow your reasoning, then it is perfectly fine for a layman to approach an SSPX priest, who is part of what cannot even canonically speaking be referred to as a religious order, but it is not licit for that person to come to a priest such as myself, or to any of the other unjustly suspended independent priests trying to keep their heads and the heads of those who come to them above water during this universal crisis in the Church. Is this what you are telling us? Maybe not, but it surely sounded like it.

     Granted, you may have other issues with such situations like mine in Garden Grove, CA, which is fine. Neither we nor other independent priests are above just criticism. However, just as one example among many others that could be cited, I believe that our situation does fit the requirements for “supplied jurisdiction.”

     Simplistic presentation on Lefebvre - independent priests

     And, in fact, it was Fr. Frederick Schell the priest who AT THE REQUEST of some members of the laity in southern California in the 1970s established the Mass centers that would later become Our Lady Help of Christians. He was also the sub-deacon at the first [SSPX] Mass at St. Joseph's in Colton, CA, in the early 1980s, as you may recall. I believe, if I am not mistaken, that Archbishop Lefebvre himself offered that very Mass.

     Speaking of the Archbishop, you made reference to him in your sermon, immediately following your point about independent priests, stating in so many words that he would not ordain a priest to function independently. While that may be true, I do not believe that such a statement answers the question really. In fact, if anything, it strengthens my interpretation of what you said because if the Archbishop was against ordaining such a man, then surely it was for the reason of the need of being incardinated, right? You suggested as much in your sermon.

     Of course, there is a difference between saying that the Archbishop was against ordaining men for an independent scenario versus saying that the Archbishop opposed all independent priests by the very fact that they were independent. In fact, I was informed a while back by those "in the know" that the Archbishop did not believe that it was necessary for such priests to join the Society or somehow find some other tangible link to the Church above and beyond what was unjustly taken away. And even if he did, that would prove nothing except that this is what the Archbishop believed.

     So then, if you are going to criticize the independent situation for the sake of teaching your seminarians or warning the faithful, even indirectly, would it not be better to deal with real issues? If I have assumed too much, I apologize, and you can correct me, but the way you addressed the issue of the vagus priest leaves little room for a more benign interpretation. It is perfectly fine for us to disagree, even about many things, but the times are tough enough without having to make more issues with friends. All other considerations aside, again, from the principle of “supplied jurisdiction,” I have every bit as much of a right to sacramental ministry as you do.

     In fact, technically speaking, given that I am still a priest for the Archdiocese of Newark, New Jersey, regardless of any unjust sanctions otherwise imposed, I have more of a right to offer the Sacraments because a diocese is a higher ranking canonical entity than what you presently have in the Society of St. Pius X.

     SSPX uses independent priests, but criticizes them behind their backs

     And then, if I have read correctly, and an independent priest has no right to Sacramental ministry, then why do you work with such priests? It is common knowledge that there are a number of priests who otherwise have no present official canonical status in the Church who offer Mass at your chapels. Do they acquire some such right simply by offering Mass and hearing Confessions within the boundaries of your properties?



    Fr. Paul Sretenovic
    Even if what you said in your sermon was correct, still, such priests would be no different than I or other independent priests, and you would, in effect, be working with vagabonds. Is that what you are to have us believe?

     If so, then this is especially disappointing because, among independent priests, you will be hard-pressed to find priests who have supported the SSPX as much as we have at Our Lady Help of Christians. In fact, you may recall meeting Father, now Monsignor, Patrick Perez at the historic Conference for the 40th anniversary of the founding of the Society of St. Pius X. No mention, then, of Fr. Perez being a danger, even a scandal, to himself or to souls. We send our people on the SSPX retreats to both Los Gatos and Phoenix under the direction of two of the finest priests I have ever met, Fr. Jacques Emily and Fr. Trevor Burfitt. We also have tried to send our men interested in pursuing a vocation to the priesthood to Winona, only to have such men return and inform us that the seminarians, including deacons, spoke ill of us. I know better than to take such things personally, but it is still disheartening. Of course, after listening to your sermon, it is no wonder they say such things!

     I hope that this is just a misunderstanding. If not, then, those of us from the outside of the SSPX have to ask ourselves if this, in fact, is part of the preparation for a merger that we keep being told is not going to happen, and yet the negotiations with Rome never seem to end.

     One further example. I remember very distinctly in the year 2003, while still residing in New Jersey, receiving a book in the mail called, Priest, Where Is Thy Mass? Mass, Where Is Thy Priest, put out by the SSPX, which included the stories of first 16 priests - later a 17th priest was added - who are not members of the Society and who offered the Latin Mass exclusively. Most, if not all of them, fell under the category of "independent;" a few said Masses at SSPX chapels.

     If what I have gathered from your sermon is true, Your Excellency, then each of these priests was or is a vagus with no right to any Sacramental ministry. That would mean that these priests were good enough in 2003 to be witnesses before the world, which means to stand for Tradition and against compromise with Progressivism, but, as of 2012, they are no longer in a position to even administer the Sacraments to those who ask, outside of danger of death.

     Is this what you are telling us, Bishop Fellay? I cannot imagine that it is, and yet, what you have said and how you have said it may have given the impression to many that this is exactly what you are saying. I know that it has to me.

     I pray that these words make an impression upon you and help you to either change your public stance on independent priests, or at least to be more clear when dealing with such a delicate issue, especially in the United States, where the independent priest situation is so prevalent, and has in fact existed from a time before the Society of St. Pius X itself was founded.

     In Mary Immaculate,

     Fr. Paul Sretenovic
     Our Lady Help of Christians
     Garden Grove, CA

    Posted February 16, 201
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline clarkaim

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    Re: SSPX Commentary: Returning to a Resistance Position???
    « Reply #14 on: July 19, 2021, 09:04:50 AM »
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  • Time is not on the side of the modernists, more and more young people with children are turning to tradition. Francis' operation may have been more serious than we have been told and we wants to do his part to destroy the church before he dies; if that includes destroying the Society then so much the better for him.
    it would be too tedious to go thru every one of these quotes, but this one is succinct enough.  Does anyone realize how you are talking about he whom you all seem to consider the Vicar of Christ?  your insinuating that a Pope would try to destroy the church before he dies, as in this one?  you know the church is indefectible don't you?  it is NOT POSSIBLE that a true pope would want to destroy the church.  That would Prove him to be an Anti-Pope, which in effect is what you ALL are saying.  Now me, yes I'm a sede, and I don't have all the answers, but I got the answers to this one.  HOW can Francis POSSIBLY be the Pope?  simple  he can't be.   how do we fix it?  who knows, God knows.