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Author Topic: SSPX charging its own chapels interest on loans  (Read 8064 times)

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Offline Marlelar

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SSPX charging its own chapels interest on loans
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2014, 12:27:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: ggreg
    3.9 million is a lot for church.  Where is it and how many does it accommodate?


    It is in Phoenix, AZ on property they already owned.  I believe it will seat 700.  Here is a link

    It will be a beautiful church.

    Marsha

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    SSPX charging its own chapels interest on loans
    « Reply #16 on: May 19, 2014, 02:14:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: Marlelar
    Quote from: ggreg
    3.9 million is a lot for church.  Where is it and how many does it accommodate?


    It is in Phoenix, AZ on property they already owned.  I believe it will seat 700.  Here is a link
    .
    It will be a beautiful church.

    Marsha


    You just made my case.  The faithful has enough burden with the loan . To charge interest, is immoral, IMO.  
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)


    Offline MaterDominici

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    SSPX charging its own chapels interest on loans
    « Reply #17 on: May 19, 2014, 03:48:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: Marlelar
    Monthly Debt Service (1.5M interest only 3 years) $9,558 month


    That's what? About 7.5%?

    I'm only surprised that you're surprised. The SSPX operates like a business and wants to know that the Phoenix division is profitable.

    Consider that if you were a happy "customer", you wouldn't really care what they did with your contributions or who owned the building when it was finished.

    Offline Marlelar

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    SSPX charging its own chapels interest on loans
    « Reply #18 on: May 19, 2014, 06:18:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: MaterDominici
    I'm only surprised that you're surprised. The SSPX operates like a business and wants to know that the Phoenix division is profitable.


    For some funny reason I keep expecting them to behave with Christian principles rather than strict business principles.  My bad :cool:

    Marsha

    Offline Luker

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    SSPX charging its own chapels interest on loans
    « Reply #19 on: May 19, 2014, 06:50:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: Marlelar


    I have the insert that was put in our bulletin:
    Project cost 3.9M
    Cash raised by Faithful 1.4M
    SSPX loan  2.4M
    Monthly Debt Service (1.5M interest only 3 years) $9,558 month
    Monthly bldg fund (almost) 16K a month.
    179K in pledges rescinded
    127K in pledges not honored to date






    Trying to run those numbers in a mortgage calculator seems to bring the interest into the ~2% range but that is making an assumption on the amortization as 25 years, which is pretty standard, but it could be 20 years or 30 or 35 years.  That doesn't strike me as very high interest (or usurious) since that won't even keep up with the inflation rate.

    But that is just me running the numbers provided in a calculator, I obviously had to make some assumptions to get the payment into the $9,500 range with the info provided.  So take this for what it is worth.
    Pray the Holy Rosary every day!!


    Offline MaterDominici

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    SSPX charging its own chapels interest on loans
    « Reply #20 on: May 19, 2014, 07:47:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: Luker
    Quote from: Marlelar


    I have the insert that was put in our bulletin:
    Project cost 3.9M
    Cash raised by Faithful 1.4M
    SSPX loan  2.4M
    Monthly Debt Service (1.5M interest only 3 years) $9,558 month
    Monthly bldg fund (almost) 16K a month.
    179K in pledges rescinded
    127K in pledges not honored to date



    Trying to run those numbers in a mortgage calculator seems to bring the interest into the ~2% range but that is making an assumption on the amortization as 25 years, which is pretty standard, but it could be 20 years or 30 or 35 years.  That doesn't strike me as very high interest (or usurious) since that won't even keep up with the inflation rate.

    But that is just me running the numbers provided in a calculator, I obviously had to make some assumptions to get the payment into the $9,500 range with the info provided.  So take this for what it is worth.


    It says that's an interest only payment unless they meant something else.

    Offline Marlelar

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    SSPX charging its own chapels interest on loans
    « Reply #21 on: May 20, 2014, 12:15:40 AM »
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  • I don't know what they mean by "1.5M interest only 3 years", that's just exactly how it was printed in the bulletin.

    Marsha

    Offline Magna opera Domini

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    SSPX charging its own chapels interest on loans
    « Reply #22 on: May 23, 2014, 04:05:09 PM »
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  • Think about it folks.   The lay faithful in Phoenix are asked to donate over $3.8 million to build a church that will be OWNED BY THE U.S. DISTRICT of the SSPX.  They are being asked to give not from their excess but to sacrifice from what they need.  

    On their own they are able to collect a little over $1.4 million, quite heroic in the current economy.   Without their consent Fr. Rostand decides to impose on the faithful a district loan for the balance.  Now they are under the added burden of raising, every year, another $115,000 which accomplishes nothing toward the original goal.

    So Fr. Rostand charges interest to the lay faithful WHO HAVEN’T BOUGHT HIM A CHURCH FAST ENOUGH.    


    Offline obediens

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    SSPX charging its own chapels interest on loans
    « Reply #23 on: May 23, 2014, 04:26:05 PM »
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  • Do any of you know what parish loans and debts and diocesan funding was like before Vatican II? Paying off interest to the diocese/province and mortgages are nothing new. The best pastors were those who could build parishes, get them out of debt, pay the diocesan assessments, special collections, bishop's fund etc.

    Offline Magna opera Domini

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    SSPX charging its own chapels interest on loans
    « Reply #24 on: May 23, 2014, 04:28:03 PM »
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  • Once upon a time the SSPX understood the definition of usury and the Catholic principles that oppose usury.

    The February 2001 issue of The Angelus carried a book review of Hilaire Belloc’s Usury, which Angelus Press once offered for sale.  Here is an extract from the review:

    “The point Belloc makes in his short essay is that usury, contrary to the now common understanding of the term, is not the charging of exorbitant interest on a money loan.  Rather, it is the charging of any interest whatsoever [emphasis in original] on a loan which is not ‘productive’ (i.e., on a loan which does not yield financial profits for the borrower).  We have become so used to thinking of usury as the charging of high rates of interest, that we have forgotten that usury has nothing to do with the rate of interest charged at all.

    “What Belloc points out is that there are two types of loans which could be made.  The first is a loan the money from which the borrower invests to make a profit for himself.  In this case, whether it was Aristotle or St. Thomas or Roman Law, no one objected to the loaner reaping a certain percentage of the profit which was the direct result of his loan.  This type of loan Belloc refers to as a ‘productive loan.’  The ‘unproductive’ loan, however, is one in which no profit is made from the loan (e.g., mortgages). [emphasis added]  In this case, the borrower does not take money out of his profit to pay the lender more than he has borrowed, rather he must take money out of his basic livelihood to pay the lender ‘interest’ on the money borrowed.”

    The U.S. District of the SSPX is extracting usurious payments from the lay faithful who were too slow to raise enough money to buy the district a new church.  Otherwise, all that $1.4 million might have had to be returned to the laity.  There are no financial naïfs among the SSPX leadership.  

    Offline Matto

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    SSPX charging its own chapels interest on loans
    « Reply #25 on: May 23, 2014, 04:54:49 PM »
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  • I think we have to take into account inflation because since our money is worthless paper and they keep printing more of it we have inflation. If the interest charged is less than the rate of inflation I have no problem with it. If the interest charged is more than inflation then I think it is wrong.
    R.I.P.
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    Offline poche

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    SSPX charging its own chapels interest on loans
    « Reply #26 on: May 24, 2014, 01:14:41 AM »
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  • Who owns the property and how are these chapels organized?

    Offline bowler

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    SSPX charging its own chapels interest on loans
    « Reply #27 on: May 24, 2014, 04:05:20 AM »
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  • I would find it insulting if

    1) I first GAVE FOR FREE a property to a person, and the income stream generated by it (in this case the church, land, buildings, and parishioners weekly donations).

    2) then I additionally give the person $1.4 million

    Then I ask the person for a loan of X, and the person charges me interest.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    All of that, and for what? In exchange I received a priest of the SSPX (who's education I paid).

    I was better off housing all the independent priests who were abandoned.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    READ this carefully and absorb it people:

    We are in exile!!! We are not in a time of monument building! All we should aspire to is to find a valid priest to help us hold on to the true faith. ALL else is superfluous. The SSPX Catholics have become monument builders seeking to create a 1950's Catholicism paradise island.

    Offline crossbro

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    SSPX charging its own chapels interest on loans
    « Reply #28 on: May 24, 2014, 10:13:56 AM »
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  • I have been to NO parishes that had loans with the diocese.

    When those parishes got into trouble the bishop would normally agree to forgive the entire amount of the loan.

    The question now is, under similar circuмstances- would the SSPX forgive the loan ?

    Offline John Steven

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    SSPX charging its own chapels interest on loans
    « Reply #29 on: June 08, 2014, 04:53:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: John Steven
    Quote from: Marlelar
    My jaw dropped at Mass this morning.  Father Riccomini was talking about our building debt.  The parish had to borrow money from the Society and it is being paid back WITH INTEREST !

    INTEREST?  REALLY?  The Society charges it own :really-mad2: interest on building loans?????

    I would expect Wells Fargo or B of A to charge interest but the SSPX charges the SSPX to borrow money to complete its own building project?  
     
    Disgraceful.

     :really-mad2: :really-mad2: :really-mad2: :really-mad2: :really-mad2: :really-mad2: :really-mad2: :really-mad2:

    Marsha


    I think this needs to be clarified with someone in the SSPX management. Our local SSPX chapel has begun a fundraising campaign to build a new school and church and they may have to borrow some money as well. The priest here told me that the SSPX has its own internal banking system where they pool money together from all the different chapels and loan it out to where it is needed without usury. This would seem to contradict what you have just heard.  :scratchchin:



    Quote from: SeanJohnson
    Leaving aside the fact that the Church has not yet defined precisely what constitutes "usury" (and therefore to accuse the SSPX of practicing it in regard to internal chapel loans is premature to say the least), the following work of Fr. Denis Fahey is available in entirety online, and provides a good foundational introduction to the principles involved in the matter:

    http://www.liberius.net/livres/Money_manipulation_and_social_order_000000317.pdf


    A follow up on this. As Sean Johnson said, the term "usury" needs to be defined. I was working with the definition of usury being the charging of any interest whatsoever. I've checked with my priest and he believes there is a little interest for loans from the district as compensation for loss of investment, interest, etc. I believe this is a fair practice and do not see any issue with it. Whether it is wise for a particular parish to take on the burden of a loan, interest or not, is another matter. Even if the money were free, it still has to be paid back and can put a large burden on the faithful.