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Offline Ladislaus

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SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
« on: April 15, 2019, 08:57:23 AM »
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  • Due to travel, I assisted at Palm Sunday Mass at an SSPX chapel, and was struck by one particular innovation.

    While the priest sang most of the Passion, occasional verses were "performed" by a layman up in the choir loft.  Now, the Passion can be broken up into parts, but that was only Traditionally done by assigning the parts to a priest, deacon, or subdeacon.  So now we have laymen participating in singing the Gospel.  How many steps away is that removed from lay lectors?  Answer:  zero steps.  This was in fact a lay lector, and singing not only an Epistle, but the actual Gospel.  During Mass typically only a priest or deacon could sing the Gospel, not even a mere cleric with the Minor Order of lector.

    When I was 10 years old and still in the Novus Ordo serving Mass, the priest once asked us (the altar boys) to say parts of the Gospel.  I refused by saying, "Father, the Gospel is only for the priest or a deacon."  So how does a 10-year-old boy in the Novus Ordo have more sense than a neo-SSPX priest?

    We're only a few steps away from full-blown Novus Ordo here.  Not to mention that the congregation overall were very poorly (i.e. casually) dressed.  Even one of the ushers was dressed casually.  Very few were in their Sunday best, and I felt "overdressed" compared to everyone else in wearing my suit and tie.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #1 on: April 15, 2019, 09:00:16 AM »
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  • Also, the congregation did not kneel during the Canon until the choir had finished with the Sanctus.  And this created a bit of incongruity, since the priest made it to the Consecration before the choir finished.  At that time, the altar boys knelt down, but the congregation was still standing.  Now, the priest waited to do the actual Consecration until the choir finished, but it was strange to have the congregation standing while the altar boys knelt.


    Offline St Paul

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #2 on: April 15, 2019, 09:13:31 AM »
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  • Also, the congregation did not kneel during the Canon until the choir had finished with the Sanctus.  And this created a bit of incongruity, since the priest made it to the Consecration before the choir finished.  At that time, the altar boys knelt down, but the congregation was still standing.  Now, the priest waited to do the actual Consecration until the choir finished, but it was strange to have the congregation standing while the altar boys knelt.
    I haven't been to sspx in some time, probably 3 years, and they were doing this then.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #3 on: April 15, 2019, 09:25:22 AM »
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  • Also, the congregation did not kneel during the Canon until the choir had finished with the Sanctus.  And this created a bit of incongruity, since the priest made it to the Consecration before the choir finished.  At that time, the altar boys knelt down, but the congregation was still standing.  Now, the priest waited to do the actual Consecration until the choir finished, but it was strange to have the congregation standing while the altar boys knelt.

    Hey, what's to to ya... Jack !?!


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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #4 on: April 15, 2019, 09:34:13 AM »
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  • I haven't been to sspx in some time, probably 3 years, and they were doing this then.

    Until yesterday, I hadn't been to one in far longer than that.  I typically attend Mass at the chapel of an Independent SSPX-aligned priest.


    Offline Mr G

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #5 on: April 15, 2019, 10:24:42 AM »
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  • Also, the congregation did not kneel during the Canon until the choir had finished with the Sanctus.  And this created a bit of incongruity, since the priest made it to the Consecration before the choir finished.  At that time, the altar boys knelt down, but the congregation was still standing.  Now, the priest waited to do the actual Consecration until the choir finished, but it was strange to have the congregation standing while the altar boys knelt.
    Yes, the SSPX has been doing that in Saint Marys, for what I am told, over 20 years, but in California I have seen the people kneel during the Sanctus at a High Mass, but that was during the Fr. Ward days.

    Offline cosmas

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #6 on: April 15, 2019, 05:28:15 PM »
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  • I was told by an older couple that had been in Saint Marys when it first started that Fr. Angles wanted everyone to stand until the end of the Sanctus , then they were to kneel. He supposedly didn't like the noise of the people going to their knees at the ringing of the bells from the sitting position after the Dominus Vobiscum after the Gospel. There are few that sit and several that kneel right as the bells are rung.

    Offline Floscarmeli

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #7 on: April 15, 2019, 08:57:37 PM »
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  • This is also happening in NZ


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #8 on: April 15, 2019, 09:31:48 PM »
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  • And St. Paul.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #9 on: April 15, 2019, 09:51:37 PM »
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  • The question is, how serious a thing is it?

    I was told that the "synagoga" part ("the synagogue", but also St. Peter, Judas, Pontius Pilate, etc.) could be sung by a layman or schola in cassock.

    Ladislaus is right that liturgically speaking the Gospel is the special privilege reserved to deacons and higher. Especially if the priest isn't also reciting it (liturgically). There is a big difference between liturgical chant and "hymns sung during Mass". Women can sing the latter; never the former.

    What would be a step lower would be for a mixed choir to sing the part. I've only seen it sung by men though -- it's like they do know it's liturgical. For example, the singer(s) have to be in cassock -- again, that is why women are excluded.

    I know many things are done in an ideal manner at a seminary, but most chapels don't have spare priests or deacons around. Unless the priest is a chant/music nerd (I use that term in a neutral to positive sense), it seems like a lot of priests want some help singing it -- at least the synagoga part.

    I thought the SSPX-printed booklet addressed this issue.

    Long story short, the thinking is probably similar to the situation with altar servers: Ideally, only a seminarian who has received the first 4 Minor Orders (Porter, Lector, Exorcist, Acolyte) has a right to serve Mass. But since most chapels don't have seminarians available, boys in cassock take the job.

    Ideally only a Lector or higher would raise his voice to be Cantor (intoning the first line of psalms, hymns during benediction, or singing lessons, the Martyrology, etc.). But even Fr. Timothy Pfeiffer wanted me to be Cantor for Saturday Compline about 14 years ago at our local SSPX chapel. We had just finished a marriage prep class of some sort with several other couples. You need 2 people to do public divine office: the priest and a cantor. We only had one priest and a bunch of laymen.

    But the exceptions didn't end there. I remember being Cantor several times at the seminary, even though I never made it to Lector. For example, at the end of the year a bunch of upper years go on retreat, and liturgically the seminary becomes very short-handed. Ditto for over the summer vacation, when there were mostly "first years" manning the place.
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    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #10 on: April 15, 2019, 11:14:40 PM »
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  • We're only a few steps away from full-blown Novus Ordo here.  Not to mention that the congregation overall were very poorly (i.e. casually) dressed.  Even one of the ushers was dressed casually.  Very few were in their Sunday best, and I felt "overdressed" compared to everyone else in wearing my suit and tie.
    I've noticed this as well. I've only been attending Society Masses for about 5 months. Today for a mission, I noticed many of the teenage boys in sweatpants, tennis shoes, t-shirts, hoodies etc. It wasn't a Mass but still, entering into a church we should have relatively formal attire on. I think maybe for some people growing up "trad", they don't fully realize how blessed they are an take for granted being able to go to Latin Mass their whole life.
    Humble thy spirit very much: for the vengeance on the flesh of the ungodly is fire and worms. - Ecclesiasticus 7:18


    Offline X

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #11 on: April 16, 2019, 05:04:11 AM »
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  • The question is, how serious a thing is it?

    I was told that the "synagoga" part ("the synagogue", but also St. Peter, Judas, Pontius Pilate, etc.) could be sung by a layman or schola in cassock.

    Ladislaus is right that liturgically speaking the Gospel is the special privilege reserved to deacons and higher. Especially if the priest isn't also reciting it (liturgically). There is a big difference between liturgical chant and "hymns sung during Mass". Women can sing the latter; never the former.

    What would be a step lower would be for a mixed choir to sing the part. I've only seen it sung by men though -- it's like they do know it's liturgical. For example, the singer(s) have to be in cassock -- again, that is why women are excluded.

    I know many things are done in an ideal manner at a seminary, but most chapels don't have spare priests or deacons around. Unless the priest is a chant/music nerd (I use that term in a neutral to positive sense), it seems like a lot of priests want some help singing it -- at least the synagoga part.

    I thought the SSPX-printed booklet addressed this issue.

    Long story short, the thinking is probably similar to the situation with altar servers: Ideally, only a seminarian who has received the first 4 Minor Orders (Porter, Lector, Exorcist, Acolyte) has a right to serve Mass. But since most chapels don't have seminarians available, boys in cassock take the job.

    Ideally only a Lector or higher would raise his voice to be Cantor (intoning the first line of psalms, hymns during benediction, or singing lessons, the Martyrology, etc.). But even Fr. Timothy Pfeiffer wanted me to be Cantor for Saturday Compline about 14 years ago at our local SSPX chapel. We had just finished a marriage prep class of some sort with several other couples. You need 2 people to do public divine office: the priest and a cantor. We only had one priest and a bunch of laymen.

    But the exceptions didn't end there. I remember being Cantor several times at the seminary, even though I never made it to Lector. For example, at the end of the year a bunch of upper years go on retreat, and liturgically the seminary becomes very short-handed. Ditto for over the summer vacation, when there were mostly "first years" manning the place.

    Very serious, because these are all preparatory measures to prepare the terrain for the gradual introduction and passive acceptance of the hybrid Missal which Rome has already announced its intention to promulgate.

    It will be the reform of the reform, and will very nearly approximate the 1965 missal rejected by Archbishop Lefebvre.

    Offline St Paul

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #12 on: April 16, 2019, 08:43:09 AM »
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  • I've noticed this as well. I've only been attending Society Masses for about 5 months. Today for a mission, I noticed many of the teenage boys in sweatpants, tennis shoes, t-shirts, hoodies etc. It wasn't a Mass but still, entering into a church we should have relatively formal attire on. I think maybe for some people growing up "trad", they don't fully realize how blessed they are an take for granted being able to go to Latin Mass their whole life.
    Wait until you see prostitute shoes, flip flops, short skirts, second-skin blouses, nightgown dresses, theatre makeup, massive jewelry, and postage-stamp-size hair coverings.  
    The children dressed improperly are a sign of the parent's lack of respect for Almighty God.

    Offline ermylaw

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #13 on: April 16, 2019, 08:54:41 AM »
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  • Quote
    With the exception of Lasance, whose directions are not as precise as those of his contemporaries and could therefore be interpreted either way, Fortescue, O’Connell, Reid, Sheen, and McManus state categorically that people should remain standing until after the Sanctus and Agnus Dei are said or sung, and rightly so, because these prayers are the Ordinary parts of the Mass that the Church has appointed  specifically for the faithful’s active participation.


    Taken from an essay available here: https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2016/04/an-essay-on-postures-of-congregation-at.html.

    I'm fairly certain that Dom Gueranger in his book on the Holy Mass says that people should always stand for the Sanctus, but I don't have that at my fingertips right now to confirm it.


    Quote
    The Rites of Holy Week by Fr Frederick McManus, published in 1956 by the St Anthony Guild Press, Paterson, NJ, states that, the "Passion is divided into 3 parts: the narration (C for Chronista), the words of Christ (+), and the words of the crowd or of anyone else (S for Synogoga)...The choir (even of lay persons) may take the part of the crowd; the 3rd deacon then sings only the words of individuals (i.e. Pilate, Peter, etc)."


    From a discussion of the question here: https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/03/palm-sunday-and-good-friday-singing.html
    Surge qui dormis, et exsurge a mortuis, et illuminabit te Christus.

    Offline X

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #14 on: April 16, 2019, 10:12:31 AM »
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  • Hi Ermylaw-

    1) The articles supplied cite only liturgical movement authorities (ie., post St. Pius X authors);

    2) If the author’s premise were true, I would have expected to see some pre-liturgical movement (ie., pre-1880’s) citations interspersed within the space of a 21 page article.  Yet the authors and books relied upon to support the author’s thesis only span a period of 45 years.

    3) In the opening pages of the study, the author cites the strange experience he had at St Michael’s (Norbertine) Abbey in California (with the implied conclusion that, upon further review, the usage there was the correct one).  However, when I was at St. Michael’s Abbey for a visit in 1997, the Abbey was not even using the Roman missal, but their traditional Praemonstatention rite of Mass.  Has the author of the essay in question arrived at a false conclusion stemming from unwittingly having witnessed a Norbertine Mass (which is similar to the Toman rite) and mistaken it for some variant of the Roman Missal?

    4) In 2002 I met Alcuin Reid at St. Michael’s Abbey In Farnborough, England (outside London).  That Abbey is the famous/notorious former haunt of the modernist liturgical reformer Don Cabrol.  My point being once again, that Alcuin Reid (who was a deacon when I met him, and was later reported to have been on the verge of laicization for failure to observe celibacy and alleged homosexual behavior, in 2010) is a representative of the liturgical movement.  That aside, does he not address pre-liturgical Mass postures in the citations included in the article?

    5) It is true that Fortescue and O’Connell are reputable liturgists, but they too are representatives of the liturgical movement, and I am wondering how much of their reputation comes merely from the fact that they wrote in English, and are therefore more widely read?

    6) The essay includes references to Pius X’s letter TLS, with the alleged emphasis on active participation and congregational singing, hence the posture of standing.  But those ideas being attributed to St. Pius X are directly contradicted in Dr. Carol Byrne’s study on the TIA website, which observes that the words “active participation” do not appear in the original, and that St. Pius X’s intention was not to feature the congregational singing of Gregorian Chant.

    7) It is not only the famous red Una Voce booklet which contradicts the premise of the author with regard to the postures of the faithful, but also the instructions of the 1958 Marian Missal of Fr Juergens and the 1945 Missal of Fr. Lasance.  Both instruct the faithful to kneel immediately after the Preface.

    In short, though the study does make some good points, I would say it is far from conclusive, and reads more like an apology of the liturgical movement, highly compartmentalizations to a small span of time in Church history when by the acknowledgement of all traditional liturgies (including those of the SSPX), the movement had long since jumped the rails of Catholic liturgical principles.

    I would say the jury is still out on the matter.

     

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