Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday  (Read 6724 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stanley N

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1208
  • Reputation: +530/-484
  • Gender: Male
Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2019, 11:39:08 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • -removed by author-


    Offline Beda

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 2
    • Reputation: +1/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #31 on: April 17, 2019, 01:13:50 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I have come across this claim that kneeling after the Sanctus is finished is an innovation before. As I believe has already been mentioned, O'Connell instructs exactly this practice for clerics in choir and also suggests that the laity follow the same postures. This is in his three-volume work 'The Celebration of Mass'. It has been suggested that O'Connell was a Modernist due to a connexion with the liturgical movement (I don't know if this connexion existed but I will assume that it did for the sake of argument.). I find this hard to believe considering how particular he is about the rubrics, especially those which Modernists would generally consider to be ridiculous (such as those governing the correct conclusion of a collect). Even if he were a Modernist, he cites so often the rubrics that it would be difficult to insert his own opinions without it being obvious.

    In regard to laymen singing parts of the Passion, I believe Ladislaus is talking about the synagoga parts (the crowd). While I agree that the ideal is that clerics perform all liturgical functions, I do not think it is an innovation for laymen to at least sing the synagoga parts. At the Church at which I attend Mass, we sing polyphonic settings of the crowd parts which were written by Tomás Luis de Victoria, who died in 1611. After some digging I found that the first composer who composed a polyphonic setting of the Passion was Gilles Binchois, who died in around 1460. I doubt that the choirs which sang these settings were composed entirely of priests or clerics, as only boys or eunuchs could have sung the higher parts due to the prohibition on women taking the place of clerics in a choir. 


    Offline Beda

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 2
    • Reputation: +1/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #32 on: April 17, 2019, 01:18:31 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I would also say that the more concerning innovation is the post-1954 Holy Week. It was presented as a restoration of Holy Week but this was a lie. The new Holy Week was manufactured just as the Novus Ordo was.

    Offline X

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 613
    • Reputation: +609/-55
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #33 on: April 17, 2019, 03:43:14 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It has been suggested that O'Connell was a Modernist due to a connexion with the liturgical movement (I don't know if this connexion existed but I will assume that it did for the sake of argument.). I find this hard to believe considering how particular he is about the rubrics, especially those which Modernists would generally consider to be ridiculous (such as those governing the correct conclusion of a collect). Even if he were a Modernist, he cites so often the rubrics that it would be difficult to insert his own opinions without it being obvious.

    Here is O'Connell -featured in Reid's book, alongside McManus (p. 261)- in praise of the liturgical movement (of which he was a part), and even of the proto-liturgical modernist, Dom Lambert Beauduin:

    Speaking of the liturgical movement, O'Connell says:

    "That seed first appeared above ground as a tender seedling when fifty years ago the Liturgical Movement was inaugurated in Belgium by Dom Lambert Beauduin, OSB...who laid its foundations firmly on a sound theological basis (especially in his booklet [The Piety of the Church], and vigorously promoted its growth by the indoctrination of the clergy into the real meaning of the Liturgy, and spread the true doctrine by the liturgical "weeks", the writing of articles and the preparation and the distribution of suitable books...and leaflets.  Over the years the seedling...has grown into a sturdy plant through the exertions of the hierarchy in many countries...and the devoted and untiring labors of a band of clergy and layfolk...Now those of them who are still alive- and happily Fr. Beauduin is one of them- see the visible triumph of their work and bless God for the success of their efforts.

    "Now their endeavor to promote the active participation of the people in the Church's worship...has received the official sanction of the Church, and under the direction of the Sacred Congregation of Rites, at the hands of liturgical and musical experts, the chief forms of active participation have been systematized and have been issued as part of the Church's code of liturgical law.

    "The fruits of the labors of fifty years must now be thankfully garnered by a multitude of priests, religious and layfolk of good will throughout the Latin Church."

    https://books.google.com/books?id=QCO3Oc9C87wC&pg=PA261&lpg=PA261&dq=reid+o%27connell+liturgical+movement&source=bl&ots=H_VE9Nk_c6&sig=ACfU3U2rATwwa7czsDFTwlKE7qP5Ry_rXA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwixu83z0tbhAhUS1qwKHaxGCbMQ6AEwBHoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=reid%20o'connell%20liturgical%20movement&f=false

    Note that for O'Connell, the liturgical movement did not originate with Dom Gueranger, or even St. Pius X, but with Dom Lambert Beauduin.

    Note also how juxtaposed it is for SSPX apologists to be defending the liturgical movement in general, and O'Connells' ilk in particular, when in former years the Society was publishing books like that of Fr. Diddier Bonneterre's The Liturgical Movement: Gueranger to Beauduin to Bugnini, Roots, Radicals Results:

    O'Connell praises him whom the old SSPX denounces.

    A Remnant article on Fr. Bonneterre's book seems appropos in view of the comments by Mr. Hollingsworth and Beda:

    "As most Catholics know very little about the liturgical movement, most of what they read in Father Bonneterre’s book will come as a complete surprise. Those who know anything of its history will be aware that it was endorsed by the pre-Vatican II popes and may be surprised at the strength of Father Bonneterre’s criticism and his insistence that it is the font and origin of the liturgical anarchy which is emptying our churches today. The inescapable conclusion of his book is that the movement, like Vatican II, was hijacked by liberals."

    [...]

    Crushed by St. Pius X, the Modernists understood that they could not penetrate the Church by theology, that is, by a clear exposé of their doctrines. They had recourse to the Marxist notion of praxis, having understood that the Church could become modernist through action, especially through the sacred action of the liturgy. Revolutions always use the living energies of the organism itself, taking control of them little by little and finally using them to destroy the body under attack. It is the well-known process of the Trojan horse.

    [Note on "praxis:" It is for the exact same reason that many are apprehensive regarding the new instructions on the postures of the faithful at Mass, or the altar servers now repeating the "Domine non sum dignus" with the priest, etc: These innovations all seem to traject with the aims of the liturgical movement; a movement which Rome has announced its intention to enforce upon the traditional Mass. -X]

    The Liturgical Movement of Dom Guéranger, of St. Pius X, and of the Belgian monasteries, in origin at any rate, was a considerable force in the Church, a prodigious means of spiritual rejuvenation which, moreover, brought forth good fruits. The Liturgical Movement was thus the ideal Trojan horse for the modernist revolution. It was easy for all the revolutionaries to hide themselves in the belly of such a large carcass. Before Mediator Dei, who among the Catholic hierarchy was concerned about liturgy? What vigilance was applied to detecting this particularly subtle form of practical Modernism?

    It was from the 1920's onward that it became clear that the Liturgical Movement had been diverted from its original admirable aims:

    Dom Beauduin first of all favored in an exaggerated way the teaching and preaching aspect of the liturgy, and then conceived the idea of making it serve the "Ecuмenical Movement" to which he was devoted body and soul. Dom Parsch tied the movement to Biblical renewal. Dom Casel made it the vehicle of a fanatical antiquarianism and of a completely personal conception of the "Christian mystery." These first revolutionaries were largely overtaken by the generation of the new liturgists of the various preconciliar liturgical commissions.
    https://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/archive-bug.htm

    This is the man O'Connell praises.

    It is typical that persons ill-informed should arrive at ill-informed conclusions: "The SSPX uses O'connell; it was pre-conciliar; he has a famous name; etc."

    To use his manuals to study the rubrics and/or the performance of the rites is one thing, but to hold him out as an orthodox defender of sound liturgical principles when he was very much in line with the deviated liturgical movement is quite another.

    He promoted the deviant liturgical movement, and that is a fact.

    Reading this book will provide a convenient entry into the study of the Liturgical Movement, but it is only a start:




    Offline ElAusente

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 91
    • Reputation: +17/-19
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #34 on: April 23, 2019, 11:25:03 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • First of all, there are no rubrics for the lay faithful, so there is no compulsion to kneel or stand at the Sanctus. However, there are rules for the choir, and these are seen by some as suggestive for the lay faithful. What do older sources say about kneeling with regard to the Sanctus?

    Pio Martinucci, Manuale sacrarum caeremoniarum (1879) writes: “Chorus alternatim recitabit Sanctus methodo pro Kyrie descripta, tum in genua procuмbet” (177). (The choir will recite alternately the Sanctus in the method for the Kyrie described, then they will fall upon their knees)

    He continues: “Elevatione peracta, assurget Clerus et stabit” (188 ) (When the elevation has been completed, the clergy will rise and stand)


    M. l’abbé Falise, Cérémonial aux romain et Cours abrégé de liturgie practique (1865) writes: “Pendant la messe on est à genoux : … à partir du Sanctus récité jusqu'après l'élévation du calice” (III.5). (During the Mass, one is on his knees … from after the Sanctus is recited to just after the elevation of the chalice)

    M. l’abbé Falise also writes in the same work that the choir stands during the Preface and the Sanctus (III.6).


    Offline Floscarmeli

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 15
    • Reputation: +11/-2
    • Gender: Female
    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #35 on: April 23, 2019, 11:43:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The question is,,, why the need to change??

    Offline X

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 613
    • Reputation: +609/-55
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #36 on: April 24, 2019, 05:27:04 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • First of all, there are no rubrics for the lay faithful, so there is no compulsion to kneel or stand at the Sanctus. However, there are rules for the choir, and these are seen by some as suggestive for the lay faithful. What do older sources say about kneeling with regard to the Sanctus?

    Pio Martinucci, Manuale sacrarum caeremoniarum (1879) writes: “Chorus alternatim recitabit Sanctus methodo pro Kyrie descripta, tum in genua procuмbet” (177). (The choir will recite alternately the Sanctus in the method for the Kyrie described, then they will fall upon their knees)

    He continues: “Elevatione peracta, assurget Clerus et stabit” (188 ) (When the elevation has been completed, the clergy will rise and stand)


    M. l’abbé Falise, Cérémonial aux romain et Cours abrégé de liturgie practique (1865) writes: “Pendant la messe on est à genoux : … à partir du Sanctus récité jusqu'après l'élévation du calice” (III.5). (During the Mass, one is on his knees … from after the Sanctus is recited to just after the elevation of the chalice)

    M. l’abbé Falise also writes in the same work that the choir stands during the Preface and the Sanctus (III.6).

    1) The choir exercises a liturgical role; the congregation does not.

    2) Consequently, the choir’s postures would be regulated, same as the altar boys and celebrants.

    3) The implicit suggestion that choir directives would apply to the congregation, thereby blending the two, is suggestive of congregational singing: An error which led to the dialogue Mass, and one of the faulty principles of a deviated liturgical movement:

    4) “Well, if the whole congregation is now a choir, and therefore exercising a liturgical role, why not have them make the responses?”

    5) One sees evidence of the SSPX heading down this aberrant track, for example, by placing a choir leader at the communion rail in the Florida (USA) priory, removing him from the loft, and transforming the entire congregation into a choir.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4187
    • Reputation: +2431/-557
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #37 on: April 24, 2019, 05:56:49 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • 1) The choir exercises a liturgical role; the congregation does not.

    2) Consequently, the choir’s postures would be regulated, same as the altar boys and celebrants.

    3) The implicit suggestion that choir directives would apply to the congregation, thereby blending the two, is suggestive of congregational singing: An error which led to the dialogue Mass, and one of the faulty principles of a deviated liturgical movement:

    4) “Well, if the whole congregation is now a choir, and therefore exercising a liturgical role, why not have them make the responses?”

    5) One sees evidence of the SSPX heading down this aberrant track, for example, by placing a choir leader at the communion rail in the Florida (USA) priory, removing him from the loft, and transforming the entire congregation into a choir.
    Point well taken.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3327/-1937
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #38 on: April 24, 2019, 06:33:31 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Due to travel, I assisted at Palm Sunday Mass at an SSPX chapel, and was struck by one particular innovation.

    While the priest sang most of the Passion, occasional verses were "performed" by a layman up in the choir loft.  Now, the Passion can be broken up into parts, but that was only Traditionally done by assigning the parts to a priest, deacon, or subdeacon.  So now we have laymen participating in singing the Gospel.  How many steps away is that removed from lay lectors?  Answer:  zero steps.  This was in fact a lay lector, and singing not only an Epistle, but the actual Gospel.  During Mass typically only a priest or deacon could sing the Gospel, not even a mere cleric with the Minor Order of lector.

    When I was 10 years old and still in the Novus Ordo serving Mass, the priest once asked us (the altar boys) to say parts of the Gospel.  I refused by saying, "Father, the Gospel is only for the priest or a deacon."  So how does a 10-year-old boy in the Novus Ordo have more sense than a neo-SSPX priest?

    We're only a few steps away from full-blown Novus Ordo here.  Not to mention that the congregation overall were very poorly (i.e. casually) dressed.  Even one of the ushers was dressed casually.  Very few were in their Sunday best, and I felt "overdressed" compared to everyone else in wearing my suit and tie.
    Is that the same chapel in Florida that has the choir conductor lead the laity from the front row?
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3327/-1937
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #39 on: April 24, 2019, 06:42:15 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • 1) The choir exercises a liturgical role; the congregation does not.

    2) Consequently, the choir’s postures would be regulated, same as the altar boys and celebrants.

    3) The implicit suggestion that choir directives would apply to the congregation, thereby blending the two, is suggestive of congregational singing: An error which led to the dialogue Mass, and one of the faulty principles of a deviated liturgical movement:

    4) “Well, if the whole congregation is now a choir, and therefore exercising a liturgical role, why not have them make the responses?”

    5) One sees evidence of the SSPX heading down this aberrant track, for example, by placing a choir leader at the communion rail in the Florida (USA) priory, removing him from the loft, and transforming the entire congregation into a choir.

    When priests are change agents, you will see change after change over time. They reveal themselves that way. When I was visiting the Florida priory where the lay "conductor" acts, that was a new one on me, never seen that in my trad life. The people also stood for the Sanctus. Then the next day, at the weekday Low Mass  came the final clear proof of an innovator, a change agent, being in charge, the people stand for the Preface and the Sanctus at Low Mass.  
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline X

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 613
    • Reputation: +609/-55
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #40 on: April 24, 2019, 07:09:17 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • 1) The choir exercises a liturgical role; the congregation does not.

    2) Consequently, the choir’s postures would be regulated, same as the altar boys and celebrants.

    3) The implicit suggestion that choir directives would apply to the congregation, thereby blending the two, is suggestive of congregational singing: An error which led to the dialogue Mass, and one of the faulty principles of a deviated liturgical movement:

    4) “Well, if the whole congregation is now a choir, and therefore exercising a liturgical role, why not have them make the responses?”

    5) One sees evidence of the SSPX heading down this aberrant track, for example, by placing a choir leader at the communion rail in the Florida (USA) priory, removing him from the loft, and transforming the entire congregation into a choir.

    It does not take much foresight to predict what would befall a confused (and malicious) movement which would imply the assignment of a liturgical role to the faithful:

    Not only would the faithful assume the choir postures, but they would begin to conceive of themselves as celebrants (as directed and suggested by their innovating liturgical handlers).

    It would be logical and expected with this faulty principle in place, therefore, to give them a larger role in the liturgical action, and make the jump from the bad principle to the Novus Ordo, where the laity have usurped many of the roles formerly reserved to the clergy under the specious pretext of an exaggerated “priesthood of the people.”

    As regards Tradhican’s insight regarding change agents implementing gradual liturgical innovations in Florida, he is exactly on point, and in an interesting additional similarity between SSPX praxis and the liturgical innovations of the 1910’s-1920’s, it is telling that Fr. Vernoy’s chapel should become the chosen location for experimentation:

    It was the method for the uncatholic innovators to do the same, seeking the most liberal monasteries and dioceses as shelters from which to carry out their revisions, while Fr. Vernoy would surely fit that mold (signatory to Correctio Filialis, riding roller coasters at theme parks, saying it is a mortal sin to reject a deal with the pope, assigning a choir director at the communion rail, etc.).

    There is little doubt he is a change agent, and that the SSPX seems to be replicating through him the same methods as the modernist liturgical innovators of 100 years ago.


    Offline ermylaw

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 19
    • Reputation: +19/-4
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #41 on: April 24, 2019, 08:29:38 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • When priests are change agents, you will see change after change over time. They reveal themselves that way. When I was visiting the Florida priory where the lay "conductor" acts, that was a new one on me, never seen that in my trad life. The people also stood for the Sanctus. Then the next day, at the weekday Low Mass  came the final clear proof of an innovator, a change agent, being in charge, the people stand for the Preface and the Sanctus at Low Mass.
    I'm generally skeptical of the "sliding into modernism" position (as I mentioned before), but this is pretty compelling evidence to rebut my skepticism. I feel sorry for the people there that they have to deal with that. I moved my family halfway across the country to be near an SSPX chapel and school -- I'd be rather indignant if these sorts of things began to happen after we'd made such a sacrifice. 
    Surge qui dormis, et exsurge a mortuis, et illuminabit te Christus.

    Offline ElAusente

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 91
    • Reputation: +17/-19
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #42 on: April 24, 2019, 11:13:52 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Are HE Dolan and Fr Cekada preparing their congregations for the Novus Ordo? Because they have lay members of the choir sing some of the responses of the Passion, in particular some of those of the Synagoga.

    It is also worthwhile to consider that prior to the reforms of Pius XII, the Passion was not the Gopsel of the Mass. The three deacons of the Passion did not say the Munda cor meum, and the actual gospel was sung by the deacon of the Mass. The priest read the Passion at the Epistle side and the Gospel on the Gospel side, saying the Munda cor meum as the subdeacon moved the missal. So while the singing of the Gospel at Mass is the role of the deacon, the singing of parts of the gospel at other times can fall to others. For example, when the Communion verse is taken from the gospels.

    Offline X

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 613
    • Reputation: +609/-55
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #43 on: April 24, 2019, 12:14:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Are HE Dolan and Fr Cekada preparing their congregations for the Novus Ordo? Because they have lay members of the choir sing some of the responses of the Passion, in particular some of those of the Synagoga.

    It is also worthwhile to consider that prior to the reforms of Pius XII, the Passion was not the Gopsel of the Mass. The three deacons of the Passion did not say the Munda cor meum, and the actual gospel was sung by the deacon of the Mass. The priest read the Passion at the Epistle side and the Gospel on the Gospel side, saying the Munda cor meum as the subdeacon moved the missal. So while the singing of the Gospel at Mass is the role of the deacon, the singing of parts of the gospel at other times can fall to others. For example, when the Communion verse is taken from the gospels.

    Hello EA-

    I sent your comment to Fr. Cekada, and received an immediate response:

    “Dear X-
    He’s an idiot.  See:
    http://www.uma.es/victoria/pdf/Pasion_San_Juan.pdf
    You really shouldn’t waste your time with people like this.
    Fr. C.”

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41862
    • Reputation: +23919/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #44 on: April 24, 2019, 12:14:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Are HE Dolan and Fr Cekada preparing their congregations for the Novus Ordo? Because they have lay members of the choir sing some of the responses of the Passion, in particular some of those of the Synagoga.

    Not an argument.  These too are often inconsistent with their own stated principles.  They're already skating on thin ice vis-a-vis their dogmatic sedevacantism, which holds that no legitimate Pope can institute liturgical reforms that are harmful to faith.  Yet they hold Pius XII to have been legitimate, yet reject his liturgical reforms as harmful.

    Their whole position on the Pius XII liturgical reforms is epic fail.  So I hardly look to them for consistency.