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Author Topic: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday  (Read 6710 times)

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Offline X

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Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2019, 10:34:12 AM »
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  • #4 should say:

    4) In 2002 I met Alcuin Reid at St. Michael’s Abbey In Farnborough, England (outside London).  That Abbey is the famous/notorious former haunt of the modernist liturgical reformer Don Cabrol.  My point being once again, that Alcuin Reid (who was a deacon when I met him, and was later reported to have been on the verge of laicization for failure to observe celibacy and alleged ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ behavior, in 2010) is a representative of the liturgical movement.  That aside, why does he not address pre-liturgical movement Mass postures in the citations included in the article?


    Offline X

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #16 on: April 16, 2019, 10:59:42 AM »
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  • Correction of typos in the penultimate paragraph:

    In short, though the study does make some good points, I would say it is far from conclusive, and reads more like an apology for the liturgical movement, highly compartmentalized to a small span of time in Church history when by the acknowledgement of all traditional liturgists (including those of the SSPX), the movement had long since jumped the rails of Catholic liturgical principles.


    Offline ermylaw

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #17 on: April 16, 2019, 11:12:16 AM »
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  • X, thank you for your reply. I don’t necessarily take a dim view of the liturgical movement as endorsed by the sources in the quotes I supplied, especially what someone like Gueranger was trying to accomplish (that is, more knowledge of the richness of the Liturgy by the laity, among other things).

    Second, I would agree the jury is still out on this practice: it would appear to me to be legitimate liturgical variation. That being the case, it’s certainly not something to hold up as an example of error when others don’t do what one believes (without evidence) to be “more traditional.”

    So my point was that complaints like those in the OP here are more apt to demonstrate one’s lack of knowledge of the historical complexity and quickness to judgment than to show error on the part of those held up for condemnation. Pointing out specious, perceived (but not actual) problems doesn’t exactly support the thesis that the SSPX is sliding toward “modernism” (or whatever they’re supposedly sliding toward). Making such arguments weakens any legitimate concerns that might be raised.
    Surge qui dormis, et exsurge a mortuis, et illuminabit te Christus.

    Offline X

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #18 on: April 16, 2019, 11:58:53 AM »
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  • Hello Ermylaw-

    The SSPX officially teaches in its Liturgy I class that the liturgical movement was no longer operating on Catholic principles no later than 1920.  

    Consequently, I believe one ought not confound the legitimate motives and measures undertaken by Don Gueranger and St. Pius X with the modernist contingent which hijacked that movement in the immediate aftermath of St. Pius’s Death.

    As regards whether or not the novel introduction of these new Mass postures is indicative of an SSPX sliding into modernism, I would opine that viewing this change of praxis in isolation of all the other changes implemented by the SSPX in pursuit of an accord with modernist Rome is not a sound methodology:

    When one views this liturgical change in praxis within the context of both Rome’s stated intention to “enrich” the old Mass, and it’s desire to “reform the reform” to something very close to the 1965 Missal (and further: when one notices how these liturgical changes in the SSPX traject in that direction, and additionally, with the greater ralliement and incremental regularization of the SSPX in view, one would be foolish not to explore the possibility of a connection (a connection I believe the timing, context, and specific nature of the changes in praxis themselves all serve to corroborate).

    I understand others may see facts differently: 

    “Whatever is received is received according to the mode of the receiver.”

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #19 on: April 16, 2019, 12:18:04 PM »
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  • Wait until you see prostitute shoes, flip flops, short skirts, second-skin blouses, nightgown dresses, theatre makeup, massive Jєωelry, and postage-stamp-size hair coverings.  
    The children dressed improperly are a sign of the parent's lack of respect for Almighty God.
    They do that at your SSPX chapel too or do you also go to Assumption Chapel in St. Marys, KS?


    Offline Merry

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #20 on: April 16, 2019, 01:17:56 PM »
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  • Some into on Fr. Fred McManus.  He was a destroyer.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_R._McManus

    https://www.lib.cua.edu/wordpress/newsevents/6906/#more-6906

    https://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/04/us/msgr-frederick-mcmanus-82-expert-in-catholic-canon-law-dies.html

    Associations and ecuмenism
    Msgr. McManus served as president of the Liturgical Conference from 1959–62 and 1964-65. He was key in establishing the Federation of Diocesan Commissions (FDLC) in 1968. He was a member of the International Commission on English in the Liturgy (ICEL) from its inception in 1963 throughout decades of translation. He helped promote dialogue between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches. He consulted for the Secretariat for Promoting Christian Unity, was a member of the Catholic-Orthodox Bilateral Commission and served on the International Joint Commission for Catholic-Orthodox Theological Dialogue.
    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #21 on: April 16, 2019, 01:38:34 PM »
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  • Quote
    X:  The SSPX officially teaches in its Liturgy I class that the liturgical movement was no longer operating on Catholic principles no later than 1920.

    I am not at all knowledgeable about the "liturgical movement."  But is it absolutely necessary that the average Catholic like myself should be?  I leave that to others.  That the Church, though, should have abandoned Catholic liturgical principles by 1920, is a bit of a shock, even to someone like myself who is not overly interested in the subject.
    Of more interest to me is the identity of X.  Why? Because knowing who he is and something of his background might influence some of us, anyway, to evaluate more objectively the things that he writes, and his basic Catholic orientation.
    But X might offer a clue to his past here.  What is taught in an SSPX Liturgy 1 class is probably not common knowledge to most of the sspx rank and file, cerainly not to me.  It's reasonable, now, to speculate that he may have been an sspx seminarian, or even an sspx priest no longer attached to the organization.  In any case, he might have used a user name like 'xseminarian,' or 'xsocietypriest'  But no, he chooses to double down on anonymity with the simple letter "X."
    I'll stay tuned.

    Offline X

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #22 on: April 16, 2019, 02:29:43 PM »
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  • I am not at all knowledgeable about the "liturgical movement."  But is it absolutely necessary that the average Catholic like myself should be?  I leave that to others.  That the Church, though, should have abandoned Catholic liturgical principles by 1920, is a bit of a shock, even to someone like myself who is not overly interested in the subject.
    Of more interest to me is the identity of X.  Why? Because knowing who he is and something of his background might influence some of us, anyway, to evaluate more objectively the things that he writes, and his basic Catholic orientation.
    But X might offer a clue to his past here.  What is taught in an SSPX Liturgy 1 class is probably not common knowledge to most of the sspx rank and file, cerainly not to me.  It's reasonable, now, to speculate that he may have been an sspx seminarian, or even an sspx priest no longer attached to the organization.  In any case, he might have used a user name like 'xseminarian,' or 'xsocietypriest'  But no, he chooses to double down on anonymity with the simple letter "X."
    I'll stay tuned.

    Dear Mr. Hollingsworth-

    In 2-3 months time, you will know my identity, as well as my reasons for my (then) former anonymity.

    Patience.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #23 on: April 16, 2019, 03:14:49 PM »
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  • I think your anonymity is irrelevant.  Hollingsworth is anonymous too.  Your sspx posts aren't going to be "more" true just because we know your name.  Facts are facts.  Don't reveal your name if you don't want to. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #24 on: April 16, 2019, 03:35:38 PM »
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  • Long story short, the thinking is probably similar to the situation with altar servers: Ideally, only a seminarian who has received the first 4 Minor Orders (Porter, Lector, Exorcist, Acolyte) has a right to serve Mass. But since most chapels don't have seminarians available, boys in cassock take the job.

    Yes, I believe that's exactly what the thinking is.  But it just seems this crosses a line.  Now, most Traditional Catholics object to the Novus Ordo practice of doling out these liturgical functions to lay people, such as having Lay Lectors.  So is seems that this crosses a new line.  But that's an emotional reaction, and it's important to understand where said line is ... based on principles.

    Here are the Catholic principles.

    Liturgical Prayer, properly speaking, is the public prayer of the Church, and so in Liturgical Prayer it is the CHURCH praying and not just individuals.  So, the Mass, Sacramental Rites, non-Sacramental Rites (such as which appear in the Rituale Romanum), and Divine Office are Liturgical Prayers.  Not that someone might not be able to pray these privately out of devotion, but when done privately they are not Liturgical in nature.

    Consequently, Liturgical Prayer requires someone in a capacity to actually represent the Church.  So, for instance, women cannot exercise Liturgical functions, properly speaking, because they cannot serve in the capacity of "heads" to represent the entire Church body.
    But, what's more, no mere layman can represent the Church and pray on behalf of the Church.  I'll go on in a subsequent post.

    Offline St Paul

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #25 on: April 16, 2019, 06:26:11 PM »
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  • They do that at your SSPX chapel too or do you also go to Assumption Chapel in St. Marys, KS?
    I havent been to an sspx chapel in a few years.  When i did, i wasnt in KS.


    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #26 on: April 16, 2019, 07:49:05 PM »
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  • Ladislas, when I was at the monastery I recall that the new holy week rubrically kind of made an unfortunate distinction between the Gospel and the passion, this was I think further blurred by the 62 rubrics which treated the passion as a liturgical act and not a Gospel. Bizzare. The priests always read the passion but I recall that SSPX priests because of the rubrics allowed laymen in cassock to read the synogoga part. Never experienced it until I went to mass in a southern state though
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #27 on: April 16, 2019, 08:03:01 PM »
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  • PV: 
    Quote
    I think your anonymity is irrelevant.  Hollingsworth is anonymous too.  Your sspx posts aren't going to be "more" true just because we know your name.  Facts are facts.  Don't reveal your name if you don't want to. 

    I think Matthew might be scratching his head over this one.  He knows me;and he and other older members of the forum should know me from the past.  It is not that I have ever hidden my identity.  It has been revealed several times over in the past.  Matthew and others can probably verify that.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #28 on: April 16, 2019, 08:19:50 PM »
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  • Quote
    I think Matthew might be scratching his head over this one.  He knows me;and he and other older members of the forum should know me from the past.  It is not that I have ever hidden my identity.  It has been revealed several times over in the past.  Matthew and others can probably verify that.
    Matthew might know you but I don't.  How many others do?  Why does it matter if I know you, Matthew does, or not?  Why does it matter if we know who X is or not?  Everything X has posted has been self-evident, but important facts.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: SSPX Chapel Palm Sunday
    « Reply #29 on: April 16, 2019, 11:35:51 PM »
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  • The question is, how serious a thing is it?

    I was told that the "synagoga" part ("the ѕуηαgσgυє", but also St. Peter, Judas, Pontius Pilate, etc.) could be sung by a layman or schola in cassock.
    I have a liturgical book for holy week with the chant written out for all the group parts (the "ѕуηαgσgυє"). Note that deacon part that sings these also sings lines for individuals, for which the chant is not written out in this book. Seems clear to me that the book is intended for laypeople to sing the group parts. Book was printed in 1956. Years ago I was at a SSPX chapel that did exactly this - the choir sang the group parts and only the group parts, and it made sense.

    Laypeople singing the gospel during the liturgy - especially the Christ part - would seem weird to me. But I've been told that laypeople taking the parts of the passion has been common in the SSPX for decades. It's not a new thing.

    In the Eastern Church the passion gospels are sung as part of the office (and the "matins" part has a candle custom that looks similar to the traditional Roman tenebrae), and so are not necessarily restricted to deacons.