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Offline Elizabeth

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SSPX Cannonization Pope?
« Reply #60 on: April 06, 2014, 09:51:13 AM »
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  • Quote from: sea leopard
    Our priest friend Fr. Peter Scott, SSPX, stationed in South Africa, has generously shared with us the following pieces he wrote for his newsletter concerning the upcoming proposed canonizations of two modernist popes. As usual, he provides a comprehensive analysis.
     (From Roman Catholics   ---   Ruth  )

     NOVA ET VETERA
     April 2014

     Dear friends and benefactors of the Society of Saint Pius X in South Africa,

      As this Lent progresses and as the world prepares for the canonization of the Second Vatican Council in the persons of Popes John XXIII and John-Paul II, due to take place on April 27, we cannot help but long to do penance for this travesty of sanctity and for the public scandal that this event will create. In this regard, I do urge you to take seriously the Rosary Crusade requested by our Superior General, and to do it in a spirit of penance and self-denial as Bishop Fellay requested, that it might be a true Crusade against humanism and for Christ the King.

      This Lent should be the time for us to rethink the way we pray our rosary, and to long to make it the prayer that it ought to be, a prayer of thanksgiving and petition, a prayer of adoration and reparation, a prayer both vocal and mental, a prayer both for ourselves and for those in need, a prayer which will be as effective for the needs of Holy Mother Church as we recite it with the desire for our own sanctification. In this regard, I would like to quote a few lines from a letter recently sent out by our District Superior to the priests of the African District: “The Rosary is the best way to persevere in union with God…The untiring repetition of the Hail Mary whilst contemplating les very simple mysteries that the Church proposes for our meditation leads to true contemplation and to sanctity. The Rosary leads to that elevated form of prayer which is contemplation. While repeated the Hail Mary, the soul contemplates the mysteries of the life of Our Lady and Our Lord. This does not require theological demonstrations, nor elevated reasoning, but simply the attention of the soul that reflects on the great truths of our religion. This permits the soul to deepen its understanding of the most elevated realities and to better understand them, and to love Our Lord and his Holy Mother more than anything else and thus to strive to accomplish more perfectly their will.” (B.O. No. 8). If we were to accomplish this, surely our Lent would be a very good and profitable one.

     Since it is of the utmost importance for us to have a clear understanding of the right attitude to have towards the upcoming “canonizations”, I wanted to include a couple of texts from the various publications of the Society. They will demonstrate the right attitude for us to hold towards them. As faithful Catholics we accept that canonizations of saints performed by Popes from the 12th century until Vatican II are infallible pronouncements, because they are solemn definitions which invoke the fullness of Papal authority.  However, we cannot accept the infallibility of the canonizations performed since 1983, and this for three reasons: - first the simplified procedure has removed all the precautions necessary to prepare for a solemn judgment; secondly because it is now essentially in the hands of the diocesan bishop, returning them to the state of canonizations before the 12th century, which were essentially the approval of a local veneration, rather than a formal judgment by the Pope; thirdly and most importantly because since Vatican II the very notion of sanctity has changed.

      Since canonization is the declaration that a deceased Catholic is a saint, clearly a new notion of sanctity is going to radically change the meaning of canonization itself. This new notion is contained in Vatican II, which speaks of the vocation of every Catholic to sanctity, failing to make any distinction between this common and ordinary sanctity, to which every Catholic is called, and the extraordinary sanctity of the canonized saints who practiced heroic virtue. For the post-conciliar church they are one and the same, and consequently the requirement of the proof of the practice of heroic virtue no longer exists, or rather is substituted by an ordinary Catholic life. The word “heroic virtue” is still used, but the reality is absent, since there is no longer the requirement for the extraordinary and heroic practice of supernatural virtue, starting with the theological virtues. John Paul II himself even went so far as to consider sanctity from an ecuмenical perspective as something shared with non-Catholic religions. It follows that the new concept of sanctity requires only the practice of natural virtue. But in the traditional and infallible canonization process, what is defined is not just that a soul is in heaven, but  properly speaking that he is a model to be imitated and venerated precisely because of his heroic practice of supernatural virtue. Consequently the new canonizations are quite different from pre-Vatican II ones, and hence they give no guarantee at all that a person is a saint in the traditional understanding of the term.

     Here lies the resolution of the dilemma of conscience that these canonizations place before us: to refuse them is to refuse the Papacy, and to accept them is to accept modernism. No, we have every right to refuse them, and it does not mean that we refuse the authority of the Pope to canonize saints. It is simply the acknowledgement that what he is doing in presenting John XXIII and John Paul II as saints is something quite different from a canonization as traditionally understood. Consequently, we are not bound to accept these conciliar Popes as models of heroic virtue, and we can and must contest the revolution they brought about by their ecuмenism, that is by their betrayal of the one and only true Faith of the Catholic Church by placing it on a level with the creeds of false religions. These canonizations must be seen, therefore, as a political move to try to force on faithful Catholics the acceptance of the new humanism. They constitute a new turn downward in the crisis of the Church, such that it is difficult not to see in them the fulfillment of the prophecy of Our Lady of La Salette: “Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist.”

     There can only be one response, so as to fight for the supernatural order of truth and grace: prayer and penance, a Crusade for the Rosary and for the Mass, for “the two are inseparable, and one cannot exist without the other. The mystery of the Rosary is the contemplation of the mystery of the Redemption in all its aspects. It finds its accomplishment in the Mass. Devotion to the Virgin Mary, Co-Redemptrix draws us to and keeps us at the foot of the Cross. To grow in the love of the Immaculate by the recitation of the Rosary is the assurance of best knowing the mystery of the Mass and of living it more intensely” (Fr. L. Duverger, Ib.). Consequently let us no longer take for granted these great gifts that God has given for our sanctification, but take advantage of them.

     Yours faithfully in the Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary,

     Father Peter R. Scott


      Fr. Scott has an intimate understanding of the supernatural order of truth and grace.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    SSPX Cannonization Pope?
    « Reply #61 on: April 08, 2014, 12:36:52 PM »
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  • .

    The following two quotes are of particular interest to me:

    Quote from: sea leopard said Fr. Peter Scott

    But in the traditional and infallible canonization process, what is defined is not just that a soul is in heaven, but  properly speaking that he is a model to be imitated and venerated precisely because of his heroic practice of supernatural virtue. Consequently the new canonizations are quite different from pre-Vatican II ones, and hence they give no guarantee at all that a person is a saint in the traditional understanding of the term.


    It is simply the acknowledgement that what he is doing in presenting John XXIII and John Paul II as saints is something quite different from a canonization as traditionally understood. Consequently, we are not bound to accept these conciliar Popes as models of heroic virtue, and we can and must contest the revolution they brought about by their ecuмenism, that is by their betrayal of the one and only true Faith of the Catholic Church by placing it on a level with the creeds of false religions.



    The reason they are of particular interest is because I have had conversations with NovusOrdo priests wherein they assure me that canonized saints are not to be thought of as models of heroic virtue, but merely as people whose memory is being recognized by popular acclaim.  It's more a kind of posthumous fame, as it were.  Apparently you could say this is an outgrowth of "democracy in the Church."

    They say that "heroic virtue" needs to be better understood (implying that the way the Church has always understood it has been defective), and now our understanding needs to undergo a change where the meaning of the term is better formulated, conceptually, that is (vocabulary from a favorite phrase of +Fellay).

    Whenever I have spoken to protestants about Catholic Doctors of the Church, they're shocked to hear that one only becomes a Doctor of the Church long after one has already died, and that the title is never awarded to anyone during their lifetime.  These protestants are crestfallen, and say, "Oh, no!  How unfortunate is that!"  

    Seeing as how Newchurch is all the rage over catching up to the Modernism of heretics, I wouldn't be surprised if we find there are going to be Newdoctors announced who are currently living.  That would be another way for Francis and his media hounds to grab some more face time on the 'news'.


    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Elizabeth

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    SSPX Cannonization Pope?
    « Reply #62 on: April 09, 2014, 12:00:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    .



    Seeing as how Newchurch is all the rage over catching up to the Modernism of heretics, I wouldn't be surprised if we find there are going to be Newdoctors announced who are currently living.  That would be another way for Francis and his media hounds to grab some more face time on the 'news'.


    .


    They might figure it is better to wait, in case there are any cardinals living who remember what Doctors of the Church are.  But I think they would really rather steer clear of term doctrine altogether, phase it out, month by month.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    SSPX Cannonization Pope?
    « Reply #63 on: April 10, 2014, 12:08:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: claudel
    The second may be seen in the usual howled replies of Clemens Maria, for whom no one, however learned and well trained, has authority to query a claim of the true pontiff, whose name—in practice if not quite in ex cathedra proclamation—coincidentally happens to be Clemens Maria. Once BTNYC was so brazen as to point out that Pope CM had simply failed to answer the simple question presented him, the encounter of the waste matter and the rotating electromechanical device really became a matter for concern for everyone within thirty yards.


    If making a judgement that Francis is a heretic and then choosing to follow those Catholic clergy who have declared a sede vacante (based on Canon 188.4 among other reasons) makes me a self-appointed Pope, what does recognizing Francis as a true Pope while rejecting all of his doctrine and discipline make you?  In addition you reject St. Paul's admonition to the Galatians (cf. Gal 1:8-9).  Does that make you an Apostle?

    Quote from: Exurge
    To see or to know something is not to judge. -St. Francis de Sales.


    Quote from: Canon 188.4
    Through tacit resignation, accepted by the law itself, all offices become vacant ipso facto and without any declaration if a cleric: ...n.4. Has publicly forsaken the Catholic Faith.


    Quote from: St. Paul (Gal 1:8-9)
    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    SSPX Cannonization Pope?
    « Reply #64 on: April 10, 2014, 12:19:29 PM »
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  • This is the only question that I could find on the thread from BTNYC:

    Quote from: BTNYC
    Is Constantine a saint or not?


    To which I responded:

    Quote from: Clemens Maria
    I'm curious about what point you are trying to make with Constantine?  I am not aware of a Pope binding the entire Church to belief in the sanctity of Constantine.  Most eastern churches regard him as a saint but I have never heard of the Pope making a binding decision.  But if a Pope has decided on the matter or a future Pope decides on the matter, I will accept his decision either way.


    Was that not a sufficient answer for you, claudel?


    Offline holysoulsacademy

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    SSPX Cannonization Pope?
    « Reply #65 on: April 10, 2014, 12:47:02 PM »
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  • I heard St. Thomas Aquinas was canonized by an Anti-Pope?
    Pope John XXII?

    Pope John XXII

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    SSPX Cannonization Pope?
    « Reply #66 on: April 10, 2014, 03:43:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: St. Paul (Gal 1:8-9)
    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.


    I have a question for you, claudel.  Is Francis (Jorge Bergoglio) a heretic or not?

    Offline AJNC

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    SSPX Cannonization Pope?
    « Reply #67 on: April 15, 2014, 12:56:26 AM »
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  • This is from 2001.


                            Counter-Reformation Association

                                                        NEWS AND VIEWS

                                 La Guerche, Monks Kirby, Warwickshire CV23 OQZ

    Candlemas                                                                                                          AD2001

                                       Dignare me laudare te, Virgo sacrata.
                                        Da mihi virtutem contra hostes tuos.

                                               NO PRUDENT DOUBT

    THERE is no prudent doubt as to the fact that Karol Wojtyla is not a valid Pope- not, at least, if it is believed either (a) that John Paul II has endorsed a rite of Mass lacking doctrinal rectitude, or (b) that he has taught heresy to the Universal Church. And that is irrespective of whether or not it is already known that he is a manifest heretic or schismatic.

      To say that a valid Pope has endorsed a rite of Mass lacking doctrinal rectitude, or that he has taught heresy to the Universal Church, is implicitly to agree with the Anglicans that “ the Church of Rome hath erred … in matters of Faith” – “erravit Ecclesia Romana … in iis etiam quae credenda sunt” (cf Article 19 of the 39 Articles).

      It is also to contradict the Catholic teaching of  “all, everywhere and always” that the Church of Rome, through the acts of its Pontiffs, is indefectible in the faith. In particular, it contradicts the teaching of the dogmatic Vatican Council (1870).  “This gift, then, of truth and never-failing faith was conferred by Heaven upon Peter and his successors in this Chair that they might perform their high office unto the salvation of all; that the whole flock of Christ, kept by them away from the poisonous fruit of error, might be nourished with the pasture of heavenly doctrine; that the occasion of schism being removed the whole Church might be kept one, and, resting on its foundation, might stand firm against the gates of Hell” (cf “Pastor Aeternus”, Chapter IV).

      The habemuspapamist position – “We have a Pope, but one who cannot be believed because he teaches heresy and whose own rite of Mass cannot be used because it lacks doctrinal rectitude” – is heretical. The current vacancy of the See of Peter (for those who accept the relevant contingent premises) is a demonstrated dogmatic fact.

      In practice, those who adopt the anti-Papal habemuspapamist heresy are also subjectively schismatic. The clergy who do so, pick and choose amongst the laws and commands of the one they recognize as a valid Roman Pontiff, and decide for themselves, or have their superiors decide for them, which (if any) they will observe and which they will ignore. Their autocephalous stance is illustrated by the detail of the Second Confiteor. This they all use in their Masses, while professing to use the John XXIII (1962) rite, which expressly disallows it. A more intrinsically serious illustration is the fact that, in 1972, Paul VI expressly and indubitably abolished the subdiaconate and all minor orders in the Latin rite; but the habemuspapamist bishops continue to ordain their clergy to those orders.

      The habemuspapamists rarely offer theological arguments for their manifestly erroneous positions and inconsistent practices. They invariably fall back on the alleged charism of discernment of Mgr Marcel Lefebvre. That charism, in practice, replaces the authority of allegedly valid Roman Pontiffs, let alone the teachings of the most authoritative theologians. Sadly, when they do attempt to reason, they involve themselves in sophistries, in desperate attempts to vindicate the inconsistencies of the Archbishop.

      It cannot be too strongly emphasized that we can know that John Paul II is not a valid Pope prior to (and independently of) knowing that he is a manifest heretic or schismatic. Concluding, however, that Karol Wojtyla is a manifest heretic or schismatic provides us with the explanation for the independently known fact that he is not a valid Pope. This is because there is no doubt that a manifest heretic or schismatic cannot be a valid Pope.

      There are two cases to be distinguished. The first concerns a manifest heretic or schismatic who is putatively elected Roman Pontiff. It is the absolutely certain teaching that such a putative Pope – by the Divine Law – is not a legitimate Successor of St Peter. (Incidentally, it is true that an excommunicated Cardinal is to be admitted to a conclave. But there is – obviously – no canon authorizing the admission, let alone election, of a manifest heretic!)

      The second is the hypothetical case of someone who (as a Catholic) is validly elected, but later becomes a heretic. Some distinguished  theologians, such as St Robert Bellarmine, would piously preferred to believe that Divine Providence would prevent the latter occurrence. However, recognizing that such is only an opinion, they analyse  the hypothesis. Their unanimous teaching is that heresy is incompatible with the Petrine office. Accordingly, the only question in dispute is as to precisely when a Pope who became a heretic would forfeit his Papacy.

      The most rigorous theory is that a Pope would cease to be such the moment he personally became a heretic, even though his heresy was in no way manifested. The standard position – that of St Robert Bellarmine – is that a Pope would automatically cease to be such the moment his heresy became manifest. A milder, minority position (associated especially with the name of Cajetan) is that the heretic Pope would cease to be such the moment an emergency Council  declared the fact of his heresy.

      The irony of our present situation – which is reality and not merely a hypothetical case – is that those who seek to cast doubt on the standard teaching (that of St Robert Bellarmine), precisely do not attempt to do what their authorities require: that is, gather an emergency Council to declare John Paul II’s heresy! Rather do they preach the impotence of the Church to free itself from an indefinite succession of “heretic Popes”, who meanwhile in practice are treated as antipopes. In other words, they chose to reduce the Church to a state of impotent anarchy.

      However – to make the crucial point yet again – we do not have to wait (in accordance with the third minority view) for an emergency Council to declare that John Paul II is a heretic, before we know that he is not a valid Pope. We know that he is not a valid Pope because of his putatively Papal acts – acts which, if those of a valid Pope, would demonstrate the falsity of the Catholic faith.

      The most important (partial) precedent for our present situation is that afforded by the Great Schism of the West (1378-1417). That apocalyptic period of thirty nine years, when it was, and remains, uncertain as to which, if any, of a number of rival Papal claimants were the true Popes, was resolved by the actions of bishops and theologians – not by a Quietest resignation to a scandalous situation (cf my booklet “The Great Schism of the West and the Catholic Church Today”).

      An additional scandal today is that most of the anti-Conciliarist clergy – when they say anything on the subject – seek to frighten people away from the Catholic position, in favour of the Looking Glass Land of incoherent “Lefebvrism”. Providentially, the Bull “cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio” expressly protects sedevacantists from any ecclesiastical penalties. Obviously, an enormously important step towards the resolution of the current apocalyptic crisis would occur if one of the FSPX bishops was publicly to declare himself a sedevacantist.

      8-I-2001                                                                                          
     William Morgan

       


                                               


    Offline PerEvangelicaDicta

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    SSPX Cannonization Pope?
    « Reply #68 on: April 15, 2014, 01:23:29 AM »
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  • cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio
    http://www.dailycatholic.org/cuмexapo.htm

    Quote
    During the time of the Council of Trent Pope Paul IV issued his Apostolic Constitution cuм Ex Apostolic Officio of February 15, 1559. This 223rd Successor of Peter would die six months later on August 18th. His four year pontificate was highlighted by his promotion of moral reforms. This Papal Bull below also focused on the validity of a prelate or Pope in the event they were in heresy or apostasy. Because it deals with faith and morals and was issued ex cathedra (from the Chair of Peter) and therefore is considered not only infallible, but to be held in perpetuity.



    Offline ggreg

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    SSPX Cannonization Pope?
    « Reply #69 on: October 07, 2014, 06:37:15 AM »
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  • Quote from: holysoulsacademy
    I heard St. Thomas Aquinas was canonized by an Anti-Pope?
    Pope John XXII?

    Pope John XXII


    John XXII was not an anti-pope

    John XXIII (1410–1415) was.

    The next John XXIII adopted the name of a former Anti-Pope.

    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    SSPX Cannonization Pope?
    « Reply #70 on: October 07, 2014, 09:56:11 AM »
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  • Quote from: andysloan
    To everyone!


    Read and validate the record of the exorcism as posted in the "Catholics Living in the Modern World" section. It will clear your understanding!



    June 18, 1977

    E = Exorcist

    B = Beelzebub

     
    JOHN XXIII AND THE COUNCIL

    E: In the name of the Most Blessed Virgin, tell us the truth!

    B: John XXIII commenced his pontificate in 1958; this John was not especially intelligent, he was not particularly learned. We would rather not talk on that subject.

    E: But now, is he up in Heaven?

    B: Alas, She (he points upward) would like us to say something about him and the damned Council but that is precisely what we do not want to do. You will have much plainer sailing everywhere if you do not talk about the Council and just simply go on your way.

    E: In the name... say only what the Blessed Virgin wishes!

    B: Alas, She wishes too much of it - too much of it! (He sighs)

    E: Say what She wishes!

    B: In 1958, John commenced his pontificate; it was an emergency solution, you could say, but still, it was he who arrived. He was pious and had good intentions, although things did not always turn out as he had foreseen. The fact remains that he convoked the Council, and he would have done better had he refrained from doing so.

    E: From what point of view would it have been better if he had refrained from doing so?

    B: From the point of view of up there (he points upward)

    E: Tell the truth!

    B: We don't want to say this; we have no wish to preach.

    E: From the point of view of down below (he points downward), how was it?

    B: Good! It was like this: it was not provided for, up there, that in the end, the baby would be thrown out with the bath-water. Those up there had not wanted that. But things being what they are now, it would have been better if the Council had not been convoked. There were, it is true, some things which could be said were in need of a renewal. But things being what they are now, the baby has been thrown out with the bath-water so completely that the water can run out, the Devil knows to where, and all that remains in the bathtub is the filth and the dirt of the child who was in the bath. It would have been better...

    E: By “the baby”, you mean the Holy Church?

    B: Yes, the Church and the Council. With the Council, a very great mistake was made. I mean that it is not without good reason that Pope John has said... (he breaks off). Even today, he would be turning in his grave is he knew what its results are.

    E: Doesn't he know?

    B: Of course he knows. He already saw on his deathbed that it was not very smart. But it was already much too late. He did not know that this Council would have such deplorable, destructive, catastrophic, frightful consequences. He thought he was doing the right thing. He had good will. He believed that he was doing everything for the greatest good of the Church. He wished to renew what little needed renewing.

    Could he know that later, those cardinals, those fraudulent imitations of cardinals, those evil cardinals, would snatch the scepter from his hands and would plunge everything into this terrible state? Could he know that? He acted in good faith, so he reached Heaven -at all events, he is saved.

    E: In the name... tell the truth and nothing but the truth!

    B: He was humble and good, but he was not very gifted. At that time, it would have been necessary to install a very gifted Pope, knowing how to govern the Church and to maintain his authority in such a way that he could not be countermanded. But he learned that too late. But, everything considered, it was in the plans of Those up there (he points upward) because the Scriptures must be wholly fulfilled. Everything was in their plan, but all the same, it is a lamentable sight for Those up there to see the present situation.

    E: In the name of the Father... B: He suffered bitterly for it on his deathbed, and he sent for some of his intimate friends, or those whom he thought were loyal to him. He told them that he would like to shout to the world: “If only I had not convoked this Council!”

    Because he now saw the frightful consequences of it. but was able to do nothing more, and because he was now on his death-bed and could no longer do anything at ail to stop everything -may the Lord wish to be merciful to him; that was all he could still say. Let the others, the so-called Heaven, to make that known to the world and also to the next Pope.

    E: In the name... tell the truth, and only what the Most Blessed Virgin wishes!

    B: But those supposedly trustworthy men thought: “He is on his death-bed, he is no longer completely rational.” When a Council has been convoked, one can't just simply say: “We are stopping it” as if it were a tap which had been turned on full and only had to be turned off again. This Council no longer had a handle by which one could take control or slow it down. Things were already too far advanced for anyone to be able to do anything. The control was broken. It was already broken when John XXIII died.

    Naturally, we (demons) were involved in the coup. We were trying to gain an advantage everywhere. Naturally, we did our utmost so that this tap could no longer be turned off to stop the flood. That is why you have dissensions which are deadly, catastrophic, frightful, and everything else the Devil knows how to create.

    His trustworthy men said: “Perhaps he has arteriosclerosis, or something like that, and he no longer knows very well what he is saying.” The trustworthy men said to each other: “This must definitely not become known. Things are so far advanced, everything is so much under way and so involved, that one can no longer pull the feet out of the shoe.”

    E: In the name...!

    B: Then came Pope Paul VI, intelligent and gifted. But what could he do to slow down what his predecessor had set in motion, and to put it into reverse? Besides, Paul VI himself made some mistakes in the beginning. He did not know what John XXIII had said on his deathbed. Then he did learn about it, but too late. At all events, he did not act on it, to his own great harm. He even took some steps that even added to the disaster.

    His pontificate has now lasted for almost fourteen years, and those fourteen years have been disappointing for him. He learned very quickly what the Council had brought with it of a destructive nature, hut too late. It is a long time - many years - since he understood the faults he committed but nevertheless, it was too late. Now he follows a terrible road, a martyr's road, as the other demons have previously had to say before me, so that he can no longer do anything in the chaotic situation existing at the present time.

    People always say: It is the Holy Spirit, it must be the Holy Spirit. When, for example, the false Pope receives diplomats and all sorts of political men in whatever fashion happens to enter into his head, or as it pleases his cardinals, then the world, or at least the world which calls itself faithful to the Pope, says again: The Holy Spirit breathes! This must be the Holy Spirit! But the majority of people do not know that the Holy Spirit no longer has anything to do with it. Now we don't wish to speak any more!

    E: You don't wish to speak? But have you said everything that you have to say, Beelzebub? Was the Council directed by the Holy Spirit or not?

    B: In the beginning, the Holy Spirit was still present some of the time, but even at that stage, not always.




    Andysloan once again.

    JXXIII was a 32 degree Freemason when he was raised to the pontificate in 1958.
    This exorcism is either a fake and a lie. This comes from the necedah sect.
    Roncalli took the name of a antipope, something a saintly man would never do.
    Andysloan, I hope we never hear from you again.